Wrong to Cheat on Partner?

[Cricket]

It is rare in western society that women are forced into marriage any longer. To me, it's a matter of integrity, and doing the right thing, even when no one will find out. If a woman is not compatible with her partner, in most instances, she has the legal right to walk away from the marriage. But breaking her vows, assuming they were taken voluntarily, is still wrong.

With Respect,

Cricket

 

[Adramelek]

My girlfriend and I have a sort of open relationship. I myself have had plenty of opertunities to have sex with other women, however, since I am in total love with my girlfriend and she with me, she and I have made an agreement that we would talk to each other about having sex with other people before we do it. I personally would have reservations about her having sex with another man, as I have a jealous nature. But since she is bi-sexual I have no problem with her having sex with another woman, just as long as we discuss it before hand, as there is the problem of STD's. I personally could remain totally faithful to my girlfriend for life, however, I do have a wondering eye, and she has told me so long as we talk about it first, she has no problem with my having sex with another woman just so long as I make it clear to the other woman that there could absolutely be no relationship between us.

There is, however, indeed a fine line when it comes to this sort of subject.

/Adramelek\

 

[Cricket]

My girlfriend and I have a sort of open relationship. I myself have had plenty of opertunities to have sex with other women, however, since I am in total love with my girlfriend and she with me, she and I have made an agreement that we would talk to each other about having sex with other people before we do it. I personally would have reservations about her having sex with another man, as I have a jealous nature. But since she is bi-sexual I have no problem with her having sex with another woman, just as long as we discuss it before hand, as there is the problem of STD's. I personally could remain totally faithful to my girlfriend for life, however, I do have a wondering eye, and she has told me so long as we talk about it first, she has no problem with my having sex with another woman just so long as I make it clear to the other woman that there could absolutely be no relationship between us.

There is, however, indeed a fine line when it comes to this sort of subject.

/Adramelek\

As I see it, this is an entirely different situation...The OP is referring to a marriage in which it is assumed that both parties are faithful.

Regardless of one's religious or personal views on marriage, a promise is a promise.

I have a friend who is constantly, chronically and consistently late. She always arrives a minimum of 15 minutes later than our agreed upon time. Even though I know she will be late, I arrive on time. Simply because I said I would. End of story. She would have no way of ever knowing I was 10 minutes late, but it's not the point. I arrive when I said I would.

Fidelity isn't that different. If it is agreed that both parties will be monogamous, so they should be until that agreement changes. In your case, Adramelek, you both know the score, so to speak, and are therefore entitled to conduct your relationship however you choose, as consenting adults, IMHO.

Respectfully,

Cricket

 

[Alceste]

As a corollary, if you are with someone, either married or otherwise, and you fall in love with someone else, are you cheating on the person you're in love with if you sleep with your spouse/partner?

If I was in love with someone else and NOT in love with my partner any more, I'd leave my partner. If I was in love with my partner AND another man I'd just suck it up and stay loyal to my partner.

I think cheating is a racket for cowards and liars. I don't feel the need to pronounce upon its moral rightness or wrongness, but I can not personally abide cowardice and lies. Also, the hypothetical "if your partner would never know" is implausible. IME, it seems that the partner almost always knows - not the details, necessarily, but that you can not be trusted and lack integrity. That has some terrible consequences for a relationship.

 

[Adramelek]

As I see it, this is an entirely different situation...The OP is referring to a marriage in which it is assumed that both parties are faithful.

Regardless of one's religious or personal views on marriage, a promise is a promise.

Yes, Cricket, I agree, and my most beloved and I are in agreement that traditional marrige is not for us. However, if we were to ever get legally married we would prefer the ceremony to be presided over by a Priest or Priestess of the Temple of Set. The ToS being a lagitimate religious organization fully recognized by the United States government, a Priest of Set in the states has full legal rights to preside over marriages.

/Adramelek\

 

[Songbird]

Hey, if it's not that big a deal to you, you should both know that on the front end. In that case - it's just not that big a deal.

If you know that on the front end, yes. Expectations can change. I never would have said it wasn't a deal-breaker for me a decade ago. It would have been then.

In the marriages cited which fell apart after an affair - apparently it WAS a big deal to at least ONE partner.

That's what I mean. I think many marriages can be resolved after an affair, if the couple chooses. Not that I think they should or shouldn't. And I don't think someone should stay in an unhealthy situation. But I do think we romanticize relationships to a point that we ignore reality in favor of some ideal.

That's what makes it "cheating!" When you partner up with someone, you need to be sure you both share the same values and expectations - on many things, but ESPECIALLY on monogamy.

I agree. I want to clarify my position, too. I'm not justifying or advocating cheating or a laissez faire attitude toward monogamy. What I'm driving at is that our expectations don't match reality. If between 25-60% of married persons cheat, and if 50% of marriages end in divorce, what exactly is our definition of a successful marriage or relationship? One that lasts a lifetime? One that was happy while it lasted? A 50% fail rate in business would be ridiculously high. But we continue to try for this marriage thing that has a 50-50 chance of lasting. I actually don't know what my point is...whatever it is, it's off-topic.

It would be a huge deal to me - and to my husband. An absolute deal killer. We knew that going into this marriage and if we are ever unhappy or dissatisfied enough to need to look outside the marriage for something more, we will get divorced first. I can assure you that I absolutely will not share my husband or my bed with another woman - NO WAY. I would rather take a financial hit than do so.

That's my choice. And I speak from experience. I was living in an absolutely gorgeous historical home, with my husband who owned a real estate brokerage, in a town that I loved, doing a job (real estate) that I loved. My husband cheated on me. I divorced him, sold the house (too much house for one woman to keep up), took my share of the business and quit real estate, and moved out of that town. All of that was very difficult - and I had to rebuild my life entirely. But that was a better choice to me than living with a cheating, unfaithful, lying husband.

And I am SO glad I did it. My life now is far better than it was before. Everything I thought I lost has come back to me - new and improved.

In answering the OP, I think cheating on a spouse is overarchingly wrong, but that means little to me out of context. There are contexts where people do wrong things because the options are difficult, or where honesty takes second place to another value our society ranks highly - social cohesion and keeping the peace. There's much more to say, but I think I'll end there.

From what I glean about your situation, there was far more going on than a cheating issue, and I'm very happy you got out and are in a better place. I think what I'm speculating about is very different from your situation, but I don't want to bore you or anyone with all the details.

 

[Sunstone]

Life has a way of messing with theories about how life should be.

 

[confusedius]

"A 50% fail rate in business would be ridiculously high"

Songbird-

I enjoy your take on things, but would question this statement...

james

 

[Songbird]

"A 50% fail rate in business would be ridiculously high"

Songbird-

I enjoy your take on things, but would question this statement...

james

I figured I was being too vague. If half of a company's product was defective or had to be recalled or replaced, I mean. But I suppose most products don't last a lifetime.

 

[Sunstone]

I figured I was being too vague. If half of a company's product was defective or had to be recalled or replaced, I mean. But I suppose most products don't last a lifetime.

Eight out of ten businesses fail within five years.

Of major corporations, eighty percent fail or are bought out within 100 years.

The average lifespan of a successful family owned business is a generation and a half.

 

[Alceste]

There are PLENTY of people who have enough integrity to remain faithful in a bad relationship until they have honestly left it with everyone's dignity intact - and no one else waiting in the wings.

Personally, I think staying with one person and pretending to be faithful till you've got your next ride in place is just about the epitome of weakness...and tackiness.

I agree. It is very difficult for me to respect people who leapfrog from one relationship to another because it seems to me they are afraid to be alone, and caving in to that fear.

 

[Alceste]

Here is a very good question. If I am with someone, either married or boyfriend girlfriend, and I fantasize about someone via masturbation, would that be considered cheating?

If you think about robbing a bank, would that be considered robbing a bank?

(If your partner is particularly insecure or high strung, you might want to keep it to yourself, though.)

 

[Kathryn]

Caveat: I fully support the concept that life will bring us the unexpected, and the "contract" requires going along for that ride. Things happen, people get sick, or have an accident, and we work together through those potholes.

That given, is a svelte young bride not also "cheating" when, in the next ten years, they eat themselves into obesity that few men would find sexually attractive? Is the courteous young groom not "cheating" when, in the next ten years, whenever they hear "play ball" they leave their spouse to effectively live alone and without sexual interplay?

Absenting that which is thrust upon us by fate, is not EVERY situation where we are not getting what we were lead to believe we would not cheating?

Complex indeed.

james

Wow, I am so glad you brought up some good stuff, James.

So often we hear "My spouse cheated on me!" from an aggrieved partner, usually said in self righteous indignation, when the "rest of the story" is that the "innocent" spouse has gained fifty pounds, or has run the checking account into a ditch, or has ruined the spouse's credit score, or is a slob who borders on repulsive - and nope, they weren't like that when they tied the knot.

In those situations, I don't blame the other partner for WANTING to find solace elsewhere. My recommendation is the tough love approach. Review your basic requirements and expectations from the marriage and the other person. Point out where things have gotten off track. Commit to serious counseling. Lay out your parameters (again).

If this doesn't work, and you can't find a way to stand to be married or intimate with this other person a minute longer, BE HONEST AND COURAGEOUS and leave the relationship!

My gosh, are you so weak and insecure that you can't do so boldly and with certainty? Do you have to have a backup honey before you can live your choices with integrity and honesty?

(By "you," I don't mean you personally, James - just pointing that out.)

 

[Songbird]

Eight out of ten businesses fail within five years.

Of major corporations, eighty percent fail or are bought out within 100 years.

The average lifespan of a successful family owned business is a generation and a half.

Great point. So my business comparison is a fail.

I suppose I'll end with this: We judge ourselves based on our intentions, but we judge others based on their actions. I lean toward understanding motives more than assigning a quality right or wrong. So maybe the OP asks a question I can't answer.

 

[Alex_G]

Great point. So my business comparison is a fail.

I suppose I'll end with this: We judge ourselves based on our intentions, but we judge others based on their actions. I lean toward understanding motives more than assigning a quality right or wrong. So maybe the OP asks a question I can't answer.

I think you've said some pretty wise things over the last 2 pages here. I agree with you that there is a large gap between what we construct as ideals or simplifications in our minds and what the reality is of practical life. There should be, in any sensible view of the world, an appreciation for this divide.

Probably due in a large part to religion, the idea of cheating has been elevated in its status of wrongdoing, for better or for worse. Unfortunately it might have caused undue focus to be drawn on one aspect of what constitutes a meaningful relationship, to the point that other things get easily overlooked. Imbalance does not often lead to good places.

oh and p.s. who gives a monkey's if the success' of new buisinesses isnt quoted with 100% accuracy in a metaphor, especially if its at the expense of appreciating the main ideas expressed, eh Songbird?

Alex

 

[Penumbra]

I tend to agree, but in the same time fail to give any coherent explanation for why cheating in itself is wrong, if one was positive from the start that there will be no harm done.

I likened it in my mind to someone trusting me with their money, and then i spent some of that money (which wasn't agreed upon nor expected) but was sure 100% that i will be able to put that money back before he asks for it. I realize it could very well be impossible for us to ever know that we will be able to do something in the future especially when its something big and related to many issues, but assuming that we could, why would it be wrong in that case?

Cheating on someone without them knowing about it reduces their eudaimonia even if it doesn't reduce their subjective happiness. It means that their trust in their partner is misplaced. It damages their honor, because they are living a lie and yet unaware. It means that every time the cheater looks into the eyes of the partner they've cheated on, they're aware of that fact that they have broken a promise and continue to hide it. Basically, it makes a mockery out of the person who was cheated on, even if there never are consequences that they find out about.

When acting a certain way, people can ask their self, "is this the best possible expression of who I am?" Is cheating on a partner, and betraying their trust even if they don't know about it a good expression to put forth?

 

[Badran]

Cheating on someone without them knowing about it reduces their eudaimonia even if it doesn't reduce their subjective happiness. It means that their trust in their partner is misplaced. It damages their honor, because they are living a lie and yet unaware. It means that every time the cheater looks into the eyes of the partner they've cheated on, they're aware of that fact that they have broken a promise and continue to hide it. Basically, it makes a mockery out of the person who was cheated on, even if there never are consequences that they find out about.

When you think about the terms you used for example, their honor, them being made a mockery of, isn't the value of these things only related to what we attribute to them?

In other words, if the person who broke the promise, does not see their partner affected at all in these terms, and the person he slept with doesn't even know that their is a partner, in what frame is their honor for example affected?

The person who broke the promise still views their partner in the same way, the partner still view themselves in the same way, all the people around view it in the same way. In what terms has it been affected then?

At the same time, i think people have a right to know the truth regardless, i can't explain why though. Because unlike the example Kathryn used much earlier, about a tree falling in the woods, i fail to see the value of these things if we don't attach them to people. In the tree's case it did fall, and it did make a sound. In this case, aren't those things only happening if it is recognized by someone?

When acting a certain way, people can ask their self, "is this the best possible expression of who I am?" Is cheating on a partner, and betraying their trust even if they don't know about it a good expression to put forth?

I'd like to use this to add something. I don't view every action in terms of right and wrong only. Somethings are neither. In some situations, i believe its best to do something for example, but that doesn't mean you'd be wrong if you didn't.

When i apply that to this issue its like this. Cheating is always wrong. Not following through with the promise (either because it no longer applies or because the grounds change) and sleeping with someone else without telling your partner isn't always wrong. Most of the time it is though, but in some situations its justified. Few extreme situations. In some of those situations, it might be best to still not do that, but if you did that doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong (or right).

 

[blackout]

Do you have to have a backup honey before you can live your choices with integrity and honesty?

And just to say, it's not always a matter of lining up a "back up honey".
Life unfolds, we know people, we meet people, we have friends,
and sometimes Love just blossoms where it is.

It's not necessary to demean everyone who finds themSelves
in love with someone else,
someone who does not qualify as a "backup",
or even a "honey",
but a supportive and Loving friend with whom deeper feelings have grown,
before their ailing relationship finally comes to it's death.

Sometimes these things,
the total decline of a relationship
takes years.
The rest of your life also moves along during these years.
And as I said, sometimes love blooms in unexpected places.

No need to condemn everyone in judgemental tones.

 

[Kathryn]

UV, if you're in a relationship where the terms are monogamy, and you can't live under those terms, and you want to be with someone else, be honest and courageous and leave the other person. Or at LEAST tell the other person that you've changed the terms of the relationship and will be sexually active with another person or people.

They have the right to know this. If they were sleeping with someone else, wouldn't you feel you have the right to know?

 

[blackout]

UV, if you're in a relationship where the terms are monogamy, and you can't live under those terms, and you want to be with someone else, be honest and courageous and leave the other person. Or at LEAST tell the other person that you've changed the terms of the relationship and will be sexually active with another person or people.

They have the right to know this. If they were sleeping with someone else, wouldn't you feel you have the right to know?

If the relationship were to the point of decline where there was no more sex,
and there had not been for a significant period of time,
I personally wouldn't care. At all.
Obviously the "romantic" relationship is well over by that point,
and if you're not havin' sex, there's no chance of spreading any diseases.

Sometimes splits take time.
Why should everyone have to hold off on living
over a piece of paper
that takes time and expense
to nullify.

Unfortunately sometimes one partner hangs on like a child
throwing temper tantrums in an attempt
to keep the other from being happy
just out of ... I don't know... spite? I guess?
So much better to just be adults
and move on maturely,
whether the paperwork is completed or not.
Why oh why make such a big deal over the paperwork
of a dead thing.
Now days, couples manage to pull off a divorce
and still can't sell the house that binds them in more paperwork.
So they live divorced in the same house,
because they can't afford to do anything else.

Lack of money makes divorce harder and harder,
and REAL separation even AFTER divorce
a long and grueling feat.

It's sad when people force other people to put their LIVES,
their happiness, their freedom to love on hold,
over a fistful of documents.

In a perfect world, sure Kathryn.
But it's not.
and life is short.

As I said, no need to judge others and their ways.
Do your own thing with your partners your own way.
That's all any of us can do.
Do things our own way,
according to our own circumstances.

There truly is NO point in wagging our fingers at others
whose exact situations we do not and will not ever know or understand.

That really is my main point here.

All situations, and all people are NOT the same,
and should not be treated as if they are by default.