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Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The assumption that only biological descendants of abraham were Jews or believers is incorrect. God made abraham father of all believers when he changed his name from Abram. In any event, ler us discuss genetics and exodus first.
Both the religious idea and the genetic idea are false.

Jews are a tribal people. A Jew is someone either born of a Jewish mom, or (more rarely) who has been adopted into the people via a formal conversion.

Abraham is the origin of this People. So yes, he is correct, no one who came before Abraham can be considered a Jew.

I'm sorry, but your idea that being a Jew has to do with belief is just mistaken. There are for example those Gentiles who believe all that Judaism teaches, but who remain what we call Noahides aka God fearers aka righteous gentiles rather than become Jews.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The word Jew comes from the tribe of Judha, one of the larger tribes of Israel.
Judha may not be the correct spelling and pronunciation. The correct one in India is "Youdheya". They had their capital in Multan, Pakistan, and it was a republic (Youdheya Ganarajya) around Buddha's time. They chose their king, that position was not hereditary. Yaudheya - Wikipedia
The Sanskrit grammarian Panini mentions that Youdheyas were ayudha-jivin i.e., a community living by the profession of arms. They called their capital as "Ayodhya", i.e., one that cannot be defeated, cannot be warred against. As it happens, Alexander defeated them though they fought very bravely. They fought the Muslim invaders also very bravely. The descendants of these people are called "Johiyas" However, Youdheyas were not Yadavas.

300px-Post-Kushan_%28Yaudheya%29._Kushan_imitative._3rd-4th_centuries_CE.jpg
120px-YaudheyaCoin.jpg
(yaudheya ganasya jaya, “Victory to the Yaudheya people”)
220px-Ajrud.jpg
YHWH and Asherah (Arjud vase)
220px-Yaudheya_on_coinage.jpg
Youdheya (Is it similar to Hebrew?)
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Judha may not be the correct spelling and pronunciation. The correct one in India is "Youdheya". They had their capital in Multan, Pakistan, and it was a republic (Youdheya Ganarajya) around Buddha's time. They chose their king, that position was not hereditary. Yaudheya - Wikipedia
The Sanskrit grammarian Panini mentions that Youdheyas were ayudha-jivin i.e., a community living by the profession of arms. They called their capital as "Ayodhya", i.e., one that cannot be defeated, cannot be warred against. As it happens, Alexander defeated them though they fought very bravely. They fought the Muslim invaders also very bravely. The descendants of these people are called "Johiyas" However, Youdheyas were not Yadavas.

300px-Post-Kushan_%28Yaudheya%29._Kushan_imitative._3rd-4th_centuries_CE.jpg
120px-YaudheyaCoin.jpg
(yaudheya ganasya jaya, “Victory to the Yaudheya people”)
View attachment 83835 YHWH and Ashera (Arjud vase)
220px-Yaudheya_on_coinage.jpg
Youdheya (Is it similar to Hebrew?)
The script "Youdheya" reads left to right, no? Hebrew reads right to left. This is interesting, nonetheless.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No. Brahmi reads left to right, generally. It might have been brought to India by Indian merchants trading in the Levant (Phonecians ?).
When Youdheyas may have moved to the Levant, there was no writing in India. That may be around 1,000 BCE.
But they were not Yadavas. That is where Jhunjhunwala may be wrong.
Youdheya is close to Yehuda / Judah (y h d). Youdheyas (Johiyas) are Kshatriyas (Warrior tribe). :)

A click will open the relevant page.

"In most cases Brāhmī and its derivatives are written from left to right, but a coin of the 4th century bc, discovered in Madhya Pradesh, is inscribed with Brāhmī characters running from right to left."

Ayodhya.png
Youdheya region (South of Multan) centered around Bahawalpur.

Sambagrae for Alexander's Greeks, Sama Vāgri (Combined three tribes)
 
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River Sea

Well-Known Member
What is an exodus from Egypt to the levant, that was Egypts New Kingdom?

@Bthoth You asked about people who travelled from Egypt to Levant?

Did these people farm and cattle rearing in Egypt? Did they go to the Levant due to drought in Egypt?

In Egypt, what's the name of this river from an earlier tectonic uplift that caused this river to change direction and cause drought?

The Yamuna River at one time flowed west, then eastward due to tectonic uplift, causing Yadavas to leave due to drought. The Yadavas left the Indus Valley in 1445 BC and traveled to Israel or Yisrael.

Canaan was located in Ghuram, India. So that means Canaan is in a different location than Yisrael or Israel.

What's this river called in Egypt that deprived the people of water, similar to the Yamuna river in the Indus Valley?
 
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crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
One reason why I tend to believe the Nile Valley exodus is that the practice of circumcision originated thousands of years ago in the Nile River valley.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
My response: It all started when I inquired, "What exactly is a Jew?" I'm not a Yadava, and I've never been to India. I met @Bharat Jhunjhunwala in another Facebook group and read his book. His research captivated me

Why do you consider it true? What is it about this research that captivates you? "Captivate" is an interesting word choice. It's been shown repeatedly that the conclusions presented about the Yadava being jewish are ... far below what many/most would consider credible. Why do you consider it credible?

, and I wanted to learn how to articulate what I had learned from his book as well as learn from others.

If they are false words, should they be articulated and promoted?

Personally I allow to learn from light with in me and seen light a few times within people radiate outward, actually from you @dybmh I learn this word shechina from here or further up in thread

I remember you, friend. Is this light within you encouraging you to promote and articulate the reimagined reduced story of the Yadavas?

Maybe this? I recall somewhere reading in this thread or another that some/many Hindu believe that Moses was Krishna? Is it perhaps that you agree with some of the other ideas that come from Hinduism, and if this Moses=Krisha is true, then that helps to convince you of other parts of Hinduism being true?

I still don't understand why this particular story about Moses=Krishna, and the Jews=Yadavas is so important to you. You haven't explained it. You only said it has captivated you. Why?

Regarding the shechina, yes, everything is flowing from the the vessel which is sometimes refered to as "shechina". Everything. Both good and evil. Truth and delusion. All of it is flowing through this vessel. Please remember, light can be both illuminating and blinding. Captivating is not always a good thing. It's actually very very bad if one literally cannot look away and gain some perspective.

Now about language which I want to continue please in this thread. You wrote.

Certainly. However, hopefully you will return the favor and answer my questions too. Fair is fair.

I still don't understand why this particular story about Moses=Krishna, and the Jews=Yadavas is so important to you. You haven't explained it. You only said it has captivated you. Why?

My response: Please show me how letters were formed and these past stories with letters, such as the letter H.

How come the letter H was added to change the name to Abraham? Was it people seeking to tell us through stories yet how to continue stories? What I learned so far was, Yud Dalet added to Abram (Abraham), showing the door from the physical world to spirituality for all humanity.

Do I understand the Hebrew letter H? I edit this to show.

View attachment 83801

There are many teachings about the letter Hei. There are many teachings about why it is being added to Abram to make it into Abraham.

Since you are drawn to the form yud-dalet, then I will share that the Hei is often considered the "Hand" literally "yud-dalet" = "Yad" = Hand. Hei is the 5th letter of the alphabet. Look at your hand, hopefully you are counting to 5. The number 5 is important because it represents strict justice. God's mighty hand. There's 5 attributes of justice. Dan, the judge, is the 5th child. There's many of these connections. But, and this is very-very important, there's more than strict justice, there's two hands. Both can help, both can harm, they need to work together. But yud-dalet is not just "hand" because it is 5 fingers. yud-dalet if it is added up with gematria it is 14. Now look at your hand and count up the segments. Each of the bones of the fingers, guess how many? 14. Keep these numbers in mind, 5 fingers on one hand, 14 segments of those fingers. And, the mispar-katan of 14 = 5 1+4=5.

In the story, Abram is accepting God's law and is executing it onto his own flesh. The, Hei, the hand of God, is being placed onto him in a permanent irrevesible manner. So God is placing the letter Hei into his name, an eternal remembrance. This makes sense. Abram is accepting his role in God's divine plan with his own hands, and as an eternal remembrance, God's hand is being placed into his name, forvever. But there is another "Hand", please let's not forget SaraH, who's name was previously Sarai. As a pair and a partnership THEY together produced the Jewish nation.

Now it is complete, 2 hands working together. Count them up. 10 fingers. But don't stop there. Count all of the segments too. 28 segments. The heavens and the earth are being created in Gen 1 using 10 statements and 28 letters working together as a team. On the surface it might seem like creation is happening by some some combination of different forces, but Judaism teaches that there is a beautiful and intricate series of partnerships all of which is under the complete authority of only 1 divine power.

images (7) (1).jpeg Screenshot_20231022_101938.jpg

Yes, it's true that there appears to be a plurality of powers and Abraham realized there is only 1. But that realization includes a realization of the partnerships of the plurality which is happening on the surface. Abram is realizing the teamwork and harmony which are all under the direction of this 1 divine power cannot be denied. Denying these partnerships, would be denying the 1 divine power itself. Once Abram had realized that these partnerships were all completely 100% orchestrated by this 1 divine power, he made a choice to include himself and partner himself with this 1 divine power. He is removing his foreskin by his own hand, and the hand of God is descending on him, AND on his wife, both of them so they can work as a team. All of this is reflecting and reinforcing this realization of a divine partnership which is all under the aabsolute authority of 1 and only 1 divine power.

That's the door. It's the realization of the divine partnerships which are happening on the surface of everything. The door is what's happeing on the surface. Walking through the door is different. Knocking down the door would be denying that these partnerships exist on the surface and are indeed part of the divine plan and divine providence.

Many see the door, walk through it ( they might call it "lifting the veil" ), and then never return or deny that the door ever existed in the first place even though... they walked right through it to get to the other-side. It's like climbing to the roof with ladder, kicking the ladder away from the roof, and imagining/declaring/proclaiming that they flew up there like a bird.

Abram did NOT do that. That would be denying the Torah, more-or-less by rewriting it or claiming it is irrelevant. And that's how one knows if a person is *actually* a Jew even if they were not born from a Jewish womb.

"What exactly is a Jew?"

A Jew is a person whose lineage traces directly back to the Torah that was given at Mt. Sinai. That's it. There's 2 ways that God has designated for determining this lineage.

If a soul is delivered from a Jewish womb, or an individual will not let anything stop them from converting per Jewish Law.

It has nothing to do with light in them, or a voice that they listen to. We are instructed NOT to listen to voices of light. We received a Torah in magnificent detail. That is what we listen to. That is what makes a person a Jew. It is a direct connection to that Torah. The Torah is many things to many people. It is a living Torah. Most don't understand what that means. It means there is an unbreakable undeniable partnership between the Torah and the individual. Denying it hurts them. For some the Torah contains stories that describe what they SHOULD NOT to do. For some the Torah contains of stories of what they SHOULD DO. For some it contains the secrets of the universe. For me it contains the path to peace.

That is the answer to "What exactly is a Jew". It is an unbreakable undeniable lineage to the Torah given at Sinai.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The Yadavas left the Indus Valley in 1445 BC and traveled to Israel or Yisrael.

Typing words and posting them on a forum doesn't make it true. Even if these words and ideas are found printed in a book, that doesn't make it true. Even if the author is brilliant in many other ways, that also doesn't make it true.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"According to Curtius they were called Sambracce or Sabracae, according to Orosius Sabagrae; and according to Diodorus, who placed them to the east of the river, Sambastae. .. I think, therefore, that the true Greek name may have been Sambagrae, for the Sanskrit "Samvāgri", that is, the 'united warriors'."
Aup.: The area and their language is still known as Bāgri. Bagad is uninhabited forest area. The three tribes are now called Johia, Bagri and Bhati.
"Ancient Geography of India" by Alexander Cunningham, the first Surveyor General of the Archaeological Survey of India.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"According to Curtius they were called Sambracce or Sabracae, according to Orosius Sabagrae; and according to Diodorus, who placed them to the east of the river, Sambastae. .. I think, therefore, that the true Greek name may have been Sambagrae, for the Sanskrit "Samvāgri", that is, the 'united warriors'."
Aup.: The area and their language is still known as Bāgri. Bagad is uninhabited forest area. The three tribes are now called Johia, Bagri and Bhati.
"Ancient Geography of India" by Alexander Cunningham, the first Surveyor General of the Archaeological Survey of India.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"According to Curtius they were called Sambracce or Sabracae, according to Orosius Sabagrae; and according to Diodorus, who placed them to the east of the river, Sambastae. .. I think, therefore, that the true Greek name may have been Sambagrae, for the Sanskrit "Samvāgri", that is, the 'united warriors'."
Aup.: The area and their language is still known as Bāgri. Bagad is uninhabited forest area. The three tribes are now called Johia, Bagri and Bhati.
"Ancient Geography of India" by Alexander Cunningham, the first Surveyor General of the Archaeological Survey of India.

The "quote" feature on the forum would greatly assist me ( and probably others ) understand what you're referring to here.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Why do you say that? It's the appropriate word for the context of this conversation.
It's about like calling someone an atheist or even pagan. In the 1600's a person could be burned at the stake for getting such a label.

Heck a midwife, helping a woman birth a child was often labeled as a witch.

My point, is you can call yourself such a term, but calling a person such a label for not accepting what another believes is not right.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
So come to genetics pl
Yes, the rude angle is to use genetics as a measure of religious identification. It's one of the hypocrite forms of religious belief.

But how many will address that hypocrisy as illegal? Rational is that a child can be condemned for what their parents did.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but your idea that being a Jew has to do with belief is just mistaken.
Jew and judaism is a religious identifier, not a different species of mankind.
There are for example those Gentiles who believe all that Judaism teaches, but who remain what we call Noahides aka God fearers aka righteous gentiles rather than become Jews.
Key word, 'believes'. The religious identifier is based on religious belief, not who a parent is or the literature claims and suggests.

The model that many accept is a perfect example of a pure form of bigotry. Just in the direction of self imposed and accepted frame.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The religious identifier is based on religious belief,

No. It is based on an undeniable and irrefutable sign from God. Being delivered from a Jewish womb, or if an individual will not let anything stand in their way from a conversion according to Jewish law. If they are not born from a Jewish womb and reject Jewish law, then they are not Jewish. Super-duper simple.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jew and judaism is a religious identifier, not a different species of mankind.
Although Judaism is the religion of the Jews, not all Jews follow Judaism. Indeed, there are a great many secular Jews, including professing atheists.

It's no different among other tribal peoples. For example, the Lakota have their own religion. Some Lakota follow traditional Lakota spirituality, and other Lakota do not. Generalize from Lakota to Jews, and you will understand.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
It's about like calling someone an atheist or even pagan. In the 1600's a person could be burned at the stake for getting such a label.

Heck a midwife, helping a woman birth a child was often labeled as a witch.

My point, is you can call yourself such a term, but calling a person such a label for not accepting what another believes is not right.
I really don't understand why you have such an aversion to the term, and associate such things with it. (Heck, I don't even understand your aversion to the terms atheist or pagan, for that matter, either.) Would you prefer the term "non-Jew?"
 
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Bthoth

Well-Known Member
@Bthoth You asked about people who travelled from Egypt to Levant?

Many traveled thru and to the levant.
Did these people farm and cattle rearing in Egypt? Did they go to the Levant due to drought in Egypt?
Egypt was a huge food bank to the mediteranian. The levant was used for trading for 1000's of years.

See the Amarna letters for Egypt and levant.

""Two types of letters can be distinguished. The first (more common) type comprises letters written from rulers of cities and small kingdoms in the Levant—an area controlled by Egypt in the New Kingdom period—that were vassals of the Egyptian king. These rulers write deferentially to the king (identifying him as “the Sun, my lord,” and referring to themselves as “your servant”) and relate squabbles with other Levantine rulers, list concerns with Egyptian administration, or discuss trade and tribute. One letter in the Museum’s collection from Abi-milku, ruler of the coastal city of Tyre, shows how these Levantine kings depicted themselves as dependent upon their Egyptian overlord (24.2.12). In addition to the many letters sent by Abi-milku of Tyre, the Amarna tablets include letters from the rulers of many Levantine cities from Ugarit in the north to Gaza in the south.""


Then prior to the amarna letters that are from the 1400 BC time period the archaeological studies show even more egyptian-levant mechanism:


These specific Levantine-Egyptian contacts continued during the early third millennium b.c.e.; it has been hypothesized that Syro-Palestinian exports by this time included wine, oil, honey, perfume, and textiles, exchanged for Egyptian stone vessels, jewelry, precious stones, and various perishable items. Use of the overland trade route to and from Egypt temporarily diminished with the close of the Early Bronze II period, however, and was supplanted, or at least enhanced, by a maritime route leading between Egypt and coastal Syria. In part as a response to the growing need for timber in the ancient world, the coastal cities of Syria–Lebanon .

Trade and Exchange in the Levant pg 360
In Egypt, what's the name of this river from an earlier tectonic uplift that caused this river to change direction and cause drought?
No idea about tectonic historical record. Is that prior to stone age?
The Yamuna River at one time flowed west, then eastward due to tectonic uplift, causing Yadavas to leave due to drought. The Yadavas left the Indus Valley in 1445 BC and traveled to Israel or Yisrael.

The term israel did not exist before jacob - torah that I ever read about. Even the amarna letter do not have an 'israel' and that is in egyptian cuneiform.


My point was, there was no exudus from egypt, to an egyptian vassal (new kingdom/levant) as a promised land . That is strictly story telling embellished by religious zealots.


Canaan was located in Ghuram, India. So that means Canaan is in a different location than Yisrael or Israel.

OK
What's this river called in Egypt that deprived the people of water, similar to the Yamuna river in the Indus Valley?

Not sure. I could use the education if you can show the time frames as relevant to modern man (approximately bronze age or just before)
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I really don't understand why you have such an aversion to the term, and associate such things with it. (Heck, I don't even understand your aversion to the terms atheist or pagan, for that matter, either.) Would you prefer the term "non-Jew?"
Human being.

The religious identifiers have caused too much hate, murder and death. Here in the modern age, many of the old belief used to isolate and divide people should be stopped. Especially the idea that a religion is born into person.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Human being.

The religious identifiers have caused too much hate, murder and death. Here in the modern age, many of the old belief used to isolate and divide people should be stopped. Especially the idea that a religion is born into person.

At that point, it's just a lineage. If you want to erase that, no one is going to agree to that. Everyone would have to give up all of their heritage and cultural identifiers.
 
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