Yadavas Hebrews farmers. How come Jews thought Hebrews were slaves?

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

You read a book written by a freelance author with zero credibility as an archaeologist or historian who presented a nonsense theory to which you are foolishly committed. Therefore you ask silly questions while giving no thought to the various responses you receive.

Pursuing this conversation is worthless.

You rightly quoted Einstein: "The process of scientific discovery is, in effect, a continual flight from wonder." Major innovations often are made by those who are NOT seeped in tradition. I humbly request you to look at the 2 papers I uploaded in response to others.

 

[firedragon]

Bible Hub gives the following rendering of Gen 12:10:
to Egypt מִצְרַ֙יְמָה֙
(mitz·ray·mah) 4714. Pray, please provide links to any translation other than Mitsrayim. Also, importance of this is that the Open Bible places birth of Abraham at 2090 BCE. The name "Misr" for modern Egypt is attested only after c. 1300 BCE.

That's no answer to the question I asked. If you didn't understand the question, please ask and I will clarify.

What is your source document for the LLX, that ptolemy in the 3rd century BC got the so called 70 to do the translation? What's the direct source, what's the dating of this document, and what's the darting methodology?

What part of this question did you not understand Dr. Bharat?

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is another story in Mausala Parva. When Arjuna visited Vasudeva after the Yadavas killed each other, Vasudeva said, "Krishna has left for an unknown country."

Krishna ended his 'leela' in Prabhas Kshetra.

I presented this at the Union Biblical Seminary, Pune, India. Critical comments most welcome.

Let Christians enjoy your research.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

During Exodus era Hebrews did end up at Canaan Yisrael., They started at Indus valley India, I only shared the book due to been asked where I was reading this information from., I was thinking I was kind due to been asked. Instead of leaving the person not knowing where, as the person wanted reference. It was as if I'm writing away and the person is asking where are you getting this information, so I answered where. Because I read a book is it ok for me to still ask a question?

When you read a book or Torah or learn something, you can ask a question too right?

Actually my question was about farmers and not slaves. Then I was asked where are you getting this information., I was kind and shared. Then the person had a hard time finding the book so I reference where.

Then the conversation led about Ptolemy weather or not did commission or not commission priests.,

This is a discussion thread. To discuss thoughts., and your thoughts as you shared Abraham moved to Canaan, a territory in the Levant., can you share more about Levant., are Levant priests? Because it seems there were priests for what reasons? If I'm understanding correctly., so does one need to be born a priests or can anyone be a priests?

Before Jews were in Egypt, we were in Canaan. Abraham, the first Jew, migrated from Ur to Canaan at God's calling. Isaac, Jacob, and all of Jacob's sons were born in Canaan.

Not all books are equal. Some books are quite scholarly, many are mediocre, and some are so ridiculous as to be jokes. The book you read fell into the last category. And yes, you can ask questions, but the mistake you made with your questions is that it assumed that the protagonists from the Bible stories are the same as those from Hindu stories. For most people, their common sense would have clued them in that this was a ridiculous notion.

The Levant refers to a specific territory, which includes Canaan. It also includes Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon. Here is a map of the Levant:
https://rashidfaridi.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/levant.jpg

And here is a map of Canaan, which is a smaller territory within the Levant, and the origin of teh Jewish people:
https://www.worldhistory.org/img/r/p/750x750/9357.jpg.webp?v=1640232002

We have a legend that Ptolemy summoned 72 scholars (six from each Jewish tribe) and had them translate the Torah. According to the legend, although the scholars worked independent of each other, they came up with the same translation. This legend of course mixes history with myth. And the Greek translation they came up with is not the Torah (which is only in Hebrew), but a mere translation of the Torah. There is nothing magical about it. It is also important to note that these 72 scholars only translated the Torah -- the canon of the Tanakh had not yet been assigned. And I have not heard that these scholars were priests.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes you are correct about Jews now., and many converted too. However what about M-124 gene that has its origins in India. This gene may have entered the Jewish gene pool at their origins in the Indus Valley., have you ever heard of this M-124 gene?

No, never heard of M-124. But I know that Jews are not Yadavahs.

I do understand this discussion had led about Ptolemy commission or not commission priest where Mitsrayim is? Mitsrayim located in India
Exodus Hebrews travel from India to Canaan.

Because the basis for your inquiry is wrong. Jews did not originate in India but in the Levant (see the map I posted you earlier). Jews originated in CANAAN. Abraham, the first Jew, migrated from the city of Ur in Sumer to Canaan at God's request. His children, grandchildren and great grandchildren all were born there is CANAAN, not India. Eventually there was a drought, and the great grandson Joseph invited Jacob and all his brothers and their families to come and sojourn in Egypt (Mitzraim), which also is not India. Eventually, the tribes were enslaved, and then Moses led them out of Mitzraim, and BACK to CANAAN. Eventually, the descendants set up the nation state of Israel. To reiterate, Canaan is not in India nad Mizraim (Egypt) is also not located in India. There is no part of the history put forth in the Bible that takes place in India.

What is the Torah, why was the Torah written from what oral stories? What were the books from others, such as the Greeks., why were the Greeks so interested in the Torah for?

The Torah predates the Greeks. The Greeks never wrote any part of the Torah, and when you translate the Torah into Greek (or any other language), it is only a mere translation, it is not the actual Torah. However, there were many Jews who spoke only Greek and no Hebrew, and having a Greek translation, even if inferior, was of benefit for them.

[/quote]What are the other books beside the Torah, what causes many to study?[/quote]You will get a different answer depending on whom you ask. For Jews, besides the Torah, we have the rest of the Tanakh, the Talmud, and the writing of the sages. The New Testament, Quran, Vedas, Tao Te Ching, etc. are not part of our sacred texts.

Indus Valley is from India not Missouri. I have no understanding why suddenly Missouri is brought up with the word Indus Valley?

Not sure, but perhaps because the person was saying that the Indus Valley was as irrelevant to the History of the Jews as Missouri is.

Actually I shared even more, Mitsrayim in India and Pakistan 'Mitsrayim, locate at Chanhu Daro in the Sindh Province of Pakistan
I wrote an extreme long piece on that further up in this thread, showing where Mitsrayim is located., that archaeologist findings of possibilities from studying rivers and land

Again, if you are reading the Hebrew Torah, or other Jewish writings in Hebrew, "Mitzraim" is the name for Egypt, not anything in India or Pakistan. I cannot comment on what other peoples might say about any Mizraim in some other language, and it would be irrelevant. When talking about Abraham, the source is the Torah, where Mizraim refers to the Egypt that is part of Africa. I'm not sure why you keep wanting to argue against this. You are being factually incorrect. You need to adjust your ideas. It's fine if you don't take my word on it. Go ahead and google Mitzraim, and see what comes up -- limit yourself to quality websites.

"Here's what I understand: KMT no vowels., just like YHWH no vowels., Modern name Egypt., It's actually Indus Valley that Hebrews Yadavas left from., evidence in Indus Valley bake bricks using straw., at KMT build with stone so no need for straw.

Maybe if you repeat this 100x it will come true. I'm getting really tired of explaining to you that this is garbage.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I appreciate the sense of disbelief expressed by you about the possibility of Biblical Patriarchs being from the Indus Valley. I published a paper in the Journal of Indo-Judaic Studies editor Nathan Katz Professor Emeritus of Florida International University. I have shown that five persons of the Bible (Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham and Moses) have their mirror persons in the Hindu tradition. I have attached the paper. Happy to hear critically from you.

Noting similarities is fine -- it's the sort of thing I would enjoy reading. But to conclude that simply because there are similarities means that they are the same people, and that Jews are actually from the Indus Valley civilization? That is simply not factual, and unworthy of respect.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

That's no answer to the question I asked. If you didn't understand the question, please ask and I will clarify.

What is your source document for the LLX, that ptolemy in the 3rd century BC got the so called 70 to do the translation? What's the direct source, what's the dating of this document, and what's the darting methodology?

What part of this question did you not understand Dr. Bharat?

I have not studied this. I believe there were Jews in Alexandria who may have provided most info. But I do not think that knowledge is so essential. I think brevard child's approach that we need to work with the text as we have it is also credible. What is your solution to the non mention of kmet the name by which egypt knew itself till 1500 bce at least or even later.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Before Jews were in Egypt, we were in Canaan. Abraham, the first Jew, migrated from Ur to Canaan at God's calling. Isaac, Jacob, and all of Jacob's sons were born in Canaan.

Not all books are equal. Some books are quite scholarly, many are mediocre, and some are so ridiculous as to be jokes. The book you read fell into the last category. And yes, you can ask questions, but the mistake you made with your questions is that it assumed that the protagonists from the Bible stories are the same as those from Hindu stories. For most people, their common sense would have clued them in that this was a ridiculous notion.

The Levant refers to a specific territory, which includes Canaan. It also includes Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon. Here is a map of the Levant:
https://rashidfaridi.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/levant.jpg

And here is a map of Canaan, which is a smaller territory within the Levant, and the origin of teh Jewish people:
https://www.worldhistory.org/img/r/p/750x750/9357.jpg.webp?v=1640232002

We have a legend that Ptolemy summoned 72 scholars (six from each Jewish tribe) and had them translate the Torah. According to the legend, although the scholars worked independent of each other, they came up with the same translation. This legend of course mixes history with myth. And the Greek translation they came up with is not the Torah (which is only in Hebrew), but a mere translation of the Torah. There is nothing magical about it. It is also important to note that these 72 scholars only translated the Torah -- the canon of the Tanakh had not yet been assigned. And I have not heard that these scholars were priests.

You have a point. If I understand correctly the present Torah has developed from the script that Ezra brought from or discovered when he returned from the exile. Question remains why no KMT and why Mitsrayim. The geography of torah just does not match with west asia. No yam suf. No Sinai. No second and third yam suf. How do we explain these.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Krishna ended his 'leela' in Prabhas Kshetra.Let Christians enjoy your research.

Christians too are people. Please read mausala parva on prabhas.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Before Jews were in Egypt, we were in Canaan. Abraham, the first Jew, migrated from Ur to Canaan at God's calling. Isaac, Jacob, and all of Jacob's sons were born in Canaan.

Not all books are equal. Some books are quite scholarly, many are mediocre, and some are so ridiculous as to be jokes. The book you read fell into the last category. And yes, you can ask questions, but the mistake you made with your questions is that it assumed that the protagonists from the Bible stories are the same as those from Hindu stories. For most people, their common sense would have clued them in that this was a ridiculous notion.

The Levant refers to a specific territory, which includes Canaan. It also includes Lebanon, Syria, and Jordon. Here is a map of the Levant:
https://rashidfaridi.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/levant.jpg

And here is a map of Canaan, which is a smaller territory within the Levant, and the origin of teh Jewish people:
https://www.worldhistory.org/img/r/p/750x750/9357.jpg.webp?v=1640232002

We have a legend that Ptolemy summoned 72 scholars (six from each Jewish tribe) and had them translate the Torah. According to the legend, although the scholars worked independent of each other, they came up with the same translation. This legend of course mixes history with myth. And the Greek translation they came up with is not the Torah (which is only in Hebrew), but a mere translation of the Torah. There is nothing magical about it. It is also important to note that these 72 scholars only translated the Torah -- the canon of the Tanakh had not yet been assigned. And I have not heard that these scholars were priests.

Yes the Torah give place names like Eden, Shinar, Ararat, Canaan, Tigris, and so on. But the Torah does not say these were located in West asia. We will solve many geographical problems if we look at alternate locations for these places.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Noting similarities is fine -- it's the sort of thing I would enjoy reading. But to conclude that simply because there are similarities means that they are the same people, and that Jews are actually from the Indus Valley civilization? That is simply not factual, and unworthy of respect.

I agree that similarities do not mean same person. But put it together with same geograpgy and time, then can we have two different persons who have similar name, genealogy, narrative at the same place at the same time. Did u read my ubs paper I posted? That gives some geographical details. Thx.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christians too are people.

Yeah, Christians too are among the misguided people, IMHO, since no proof is available for their beliefs.

Yes the Torah give place names like Eden, Shinar, Ararat, Canaan, Tigris, and so on. But the Torah does not say these were located in West Asia. We will solve many geographical problems if we look at alternate locations for these places.

Yeah, Eden may have been in Kashmir or Pakistan-held Kashmir (Neelum valley). Shinar may be Srinagar, and Ararat may be Aishmukam, and so on. Euphrates and Tigris may have been Aru and Shesh Liddar.

 

[firedragon]

I have not studied this. I believe there were Jews in Alexandria who may have provided most info. But I do not think that knowledge is so essential. I think brevard child's approach that we need to work with the text as we have it is also credible. What is your solution to the non mention of kmet the name by which egypt knew itself till 1500 bce at least or even later.

That's a leap of faith. You are speaking about the LXX. Ask the Jews. Ask scholarship. There is no real authenticity to it.

Scholarship does not work that way. The mistake a lot of people do is to do a lot of research on subjects as in "read". But they don't go to the crux of things. Every ancient document attributed to an early time period should be researched to find the source. Is it authentic? When was originally created? Why? What were the political reasons? Do they represent the original writers intention?

When did they name it "septuagint"? According to Jewish tradition, the Septuagint was only a greek translation of the Pentateuch. Later they added translations of the other books. And the Jews generally cringe at it. It's like violating their holy text. If I am right, they even have a day to mourn. You can clarify this with Jewish scholarship.

I appreciate your research.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

That's a leap of faith. You are speaking about the LXX. Ask the Jews. Ask scholarship. There is no real authenticity to it.

Scholarship does not work that way. The mistake a lot of people do is to do a lot of research on subjects as in "read". But they don't go to the crux of things. Every ancient document attributed to an early time period should be researched to find the source. Is it authentic? When was originally created? Why? What were the political reasons? Do they represent the original writers intention?

When did they name it "septuagint"? According to Jewish tradition, the Septuagint was only a greek translation of the Pentateuch. Later they added translations of the other books. And the Jews generally cringe at it. It's like violating their holy text. If I am right, they even have a day to mourn. You can clarify this with Jewish scholarship.

I appreciate your research.

Your point is well taken. I had raised Septuagint on the limited issue that there is no mention of egypt. The same is true for Torah, presumably following Ezra and recorded in the Masoretic. Pl explain how the history of Septuagint is related to this issue. Rest assured I will study in detail once I see the relevance.
Please give any evidence from the Torah linking exodus to egypt. Thx.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Yeah, Christians too are among the misguided people, IMHO, since no proof is available for their beliefs. Yeah, Eden may have been in Kashmir or Pakistan-held Kashmir (Neelum valley). Shinar may be Srinagar, and Ararat may be Aishmukam, and so on. Euphrates and Tigris may have been Aru and Shesh Liddar.

These places do not have archaeological evidence at 4000 to 1500 bce.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes the Torah give place names like Eden, Shinar, Ararat, Canaan, Tigris, and so on. But the Torah does not say these were located in West asia. We will solve many geographical problems if we look at alternate locations for these places.

We know Mitzraim is Egypt because we speak Hebrew. Sheesh. I would think that the very fact that the Torah discusses Pharaoh would be a big clue for you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I agree that similarities do not mean same person. But put it together with same geograpgy and time, then can we have two different persons who have similar name, genealogy, narrative at the same place at the same time. Did u read my ubs paper I posted? That gives some geographical details. Thx.

But it's not the same geography. Egypt is no where near India. I'm not sure why you are so emotionally invested in this nonsense.

 

[Aupmanyav]

These places do not have archaeological evidence at 4000 to 1500 bce.

There is no proof of God, Eden, Adam, Eve, Abraham or Moses too.

 

[firedragon]

Your point is well taken. I had raised Septuagint on the limited issue that there is no mention of egypt. The same is true for Torah, presumably following Ezra and recorded in the Masoretic. Pl explain how the history of Septuagint is related to this issue. Rest assured I will study in detail once I see the relevance.
Please give any evidence from the Torah linking exodus to egypt. Thx.

Dr. Bharat. My point is, prior to hermeneutics of the Tanakh, the foundation has to be established. Because this is a historicity issue that is being discussed. The reason the history of the Septuagint is related is because you quote it. And you have spoken about it, linking it to ptolemy, and the so called 70 or 72, but what's the historicity of it all? It's not related to the question where Moses was. The authenticity of the Septuagint is important because you speak about it. Hope you understand. No disrespect intended. Jewish scholars have always held the view that the history of the septuagint is concocted. In scholarship of that depth, one must be concerned about the authenticity of these historical claims.

I am no scholar of the Egyptian connection to Exodus or the Islamic discourse. And I have not done that type of extensive research. But off the top of my head, how I would connect Moses to Egypt would be to associate Moses with Mitsrayim in exodus where the people complain to him asking him why he brought them from Misrayim to die in the desert. Now don't think for a second that I have any expertise in the Hebrew language just because I am quoting these words.

So in this case, what is your real thesis? Is Misrayim another place? I have not read your book so I ask you.

In Arabic, Egypt is referred to with the same syllables as in Hebrew. But the difference is it does not use the pluralis. Meem, Sadh, Ra. Misra. The usage is Mamnooa min al Sarf which means it does not have it can relate to other nouns in a sentence only in two particular ways. This makes it a proper noun. And Moses and his brother are said to establish their people in Egypt or Misra. The Qur'an makes a difference between Joseph's time and Moses's time calling the ruler Malik and then as Firawn when it comes to Moses. The Ali Firawna, Pharaoh's followers who tried to kill Moses's followers were associated together, while the distinction between Malik and Firawn is historically correct. That suggests that Moses was in Egypt.

Thus, I would like to know what your thesis is. Was Misra not in Egypt? Was another king in another geographical area called pharaoh? Or is there a nuance in this story that I am missing? If that is the case, Pharaoh is directly associated with "kingship" and "Egypt" or Misra in the same verse in the Qur'an.

Since you seem to be proposing a kind of perennial philosophy and had quoted the Qur'an as well, I am bringing both books to the table. And I would like to hear your thoughts.

It's an honour Dr. Bharat.

 

[firedragon]

There is no proof of God, Eden, Adam, Eve, Abraham or Moses too.

There is no proof of Brahman either.