Yahweh is immoral

[joelr]

I don't agree in principle your position about Deuteronomy.

My position is its immoral. You think when going to war we should take all women and children as plunder? Kill all the men?

Apparently you haven't seen the effects of the rape of Nanking nor do you understand the immorality of the Japanese at than time. Japanese DID plunder women and children. Used them, abused them and many times killed them. Did you not study history?

Yes and this is one reason why Deuteronomy 20 is INCREDIBLY IMMORAL??? YOu are just making my point and at the same time saying you don't agree in principle with my point? Could you be more vague? It's an immoral scripture, it's immoral; when used by the Japanese, So what is your issue?

Because the two atomic bombs killed men, women and children. So, what is it, was it immoral to stop the Japanese continued plunder and wanton killing and abuse of people? Or is it moral to let the Japanese continue to plunder and wanton killing? To say yes to the first question is to say yes to the second or to say no to the first is to say no to the second and accept Deuteronomy.

In either case, your position is mute

What a crap argument. Possible the worst attempt to justify the immoral and disgusting scripture in Deuteronomy 20. Now I see your argument. Short version, massive fail. Massive. Fail.

Deuteronomy orders either kill all living things in 6 cites or in all others, make an offer of peace, if refused kill the men and take children and women as plunder.


What we did in WW2, fight the enemy until the soldiers are defeated. Allow any soldier who surrenders to be in prison and later released. There is no plunder of women? Killing of all men?

An atomic bomb killed most people in the city. So did the fire bombings of Tokyo. Invading the mainland was a terrible option so we destroyed cities until surrender. Mainland invasion was up next at the cost of 1 million AMerican soldiers and countless Japenese citizens. At no point did the military take any women and children as plunder. Yahweh thinks it's ok. At no point was all the men killed as Yahweh wants. At no point was every living thing killed, as Yahweh wants. Once surrender took place humanitarian efforts began. No slaves, plunder, forced labor.

Your comparison is a complete failure. The Deteronical laws are barbaric and written by an inhumane person.

Let me go through this again.
If I say NO to this - was it immoral to stop the Japanese continued plunder and wanton killing and abuse of people
then I'm saying NO to this - is it moral to let the Japanese continue to plunder and wanton killing?
The your conclusion is I'm accepting Deuteronomy?

Oh boy. I see how they get you to believe fiction.

Deuteronomy calls for doing the same thing the Japanese were doing. But to ALL OTHER NATIONS. To the other nations who are worshipping the wrong Gods , you KILL EVERYONE?

What we did is ignore Deuteronomy and fought the Japanese until we defeated the army. Then we took their army, disbanded it and sent them home. We then moved to Japan and helped them re-build. We did not kill all the men and take the women and children as plunder.
The atomic bomb did not kill every living thing that moves. It wiped out 1 city. There were millions of Japanese still alive. Millions of women and children not taken as plunder. There was no forced labor (that's only if they surrender right away). We did not kill all living things because they were not Christian.

The cognative dissonance in your mind at work to allow you to accept Deuteronomy 20 has become blaringly clear in this bizarre comparison.

The only people in your example following Yahwehs law were the Japanese. They were killing men and plundering women/children. That is the law in your book. Instructions for when going to war.
Kill all the men (not beat the army and then put them in a humane jail if they surrender), just kill the men and plunder. For they are yours, the spoils of war Yahweh gives to you.

 

[Sedim Haba]

Anything that turns us away from G-d is not "perfectly fine", in my understanding.

Why does a person claim that somebody/something is G-d?
What is the result? Does it not lead to an authority that claims that YHWH/Allah is replaced by that somebody/something?

It is one thing to profess "through Jesus Christ Our Lord", and another to say they are G-d.

Turn away? That's not the point of an intermediary. Intermediary links two that can't be otherwise.
Intermediary in pure form does not replace but acts as a bridge.

IDK about Islam, but in Judaism the search for the intermediary began as Man & G-d
drifted farther apart. Man moved farther because of his sin, G-d because of Man's sin.

The problem truly began when Man started to forget this and worship the intermediary
AS a god. Then began idolatry. For most Xians, Jesus is still Intermediary, not Idol.

 

[Sedim Haba]

What makes the scripture yours?
If the words in the scripture are true,
they describe the creation of all people,
a promise made to Abraham who was not Jewish,
and a law give to Moses who was not Jewish.

And if they are not true, of course there is nothing to discuss.

The rules and obligations of the High Priest do not apply to all Kohens.
The rules and obligations of the Kohens do not apply to all Levites.
The rules and obligations of the Levites do not apply to all Israel.
The rules and obligations of the Israel do not apply to all Nations.
Israel accepted these rules and obligations at Mt. Sinai. They were not
alone, there were more NOT of Abraham there in fact. It didn't matter.

The Nations have their own rules and obligations. These are universal rules,
applicable to both ALL the Children of Abraham AND other Nations as well.

Anyone from any of the Nations can take on the full Torah and become Israel.
HOWEVER they have to accept ALL Torah Law, and not claim it no longer is in effect.

(As some do.)

 

[Sedim Haba]

ok, you definitely know something I dont. like who xian jesus is. Maybe you can tell me.

Yes, I am clear that Jews are being led as far away from Jesus as possible.

More like they're being pushed away from Yeshua. (Let's use his real name OK?)

Every time Yeshua is deified, prayed to as if he is G-d, Jews become less able to accept.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me"

For a Jew, it is expressly forbidden to pray to anyone or anything other than G-d. Period.

It's perfectly fine to invoke names when in prayer, Jews invoke the Patriarchs in prayer.

Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; but it's understood that it's their merit invoked, and NOT
a prayer to them. It's equally fine, IMHO, to invoke Yeshua's name in prayer.
I do it all the time. I'm not placing anyone 'before' G-d, at all.

That's the difference. To many, (but NOT all) prayer TO 'Jesus' = prayer to G-d.

 

[Daniel Nicholson]

Sincerly, thanks for your replies everyone

 

[metis]

Because the two atomic bombs killed men, women and children. So, what is it, was it immoral to stop the Japanese continued plunder and wanton killing and abuse of people? Or is it moral to let the Japanese continue to plunder and wanton killing? To say yes to the first question is to say yes to the second or to say no to the first is to say no to the second and accept Deuteronomy.

I have to admit I'm confused with the above, so in order to have you clarify this, is it your contention that us dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was in line with what Jesus taught was acceptable?

 

[Kenny]

I have to admit I'm confused with the above, so in order to have you clarify this, is it your contention that us dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was in line with what Jesus taught was acceptable?

Not exactly.

What I am saying is that:

• if people say God is genocidal, then man has no right to judge Him - whether you drop a bomb or commit the rape of Nanking et al.
• That man is not in any position to judge the Creator.

It was good that you asked.

 

[metis]

Not exactly.

What I am saying is that:

• if people say God is genocidal, then man has no right to judge Him - whether you drop a bomb or commit the rape of Nanking et al.
• That man is not in any position to judge the Creator.

It was good that you asked.

Thanks for the clarification as you sorta had me worried.

 

[Sheldon]

Disconnecting from God and running towards illusions through falsehood and dark sorcery, will have consequences.

I don't believe you, as this is just a bare claim.

Turning away from God's guidance and not searching for his light, and giving into intoxication of Satanic forces, has consequences.

Again, I don't believe you, as this is just a bare unevidenced claim.

 

[clara17]

The rules and obligations of the High Priest do not apply to all Kohens.
The rules and obligations of the Kohens do not apply to all Levites.
The rules and obligations of the Levites do not apply to all Israel.
The rules and obligations of the Israel do not apply to all Nations.
Israel accepted these rules and obligations at Mt. Sinai. They were not
alone, there were more NOT of Abraham there in fact. It didn't matter.

The Nations have their own rules and obligations. These are universal rules,
applicable to both ALL the Children of Abraham AND other Nations as well.

Anyone from any of the Nations can take on the full Torah and become Israel.
HOWEVER they have to accept ALL Torah Law, and not claim it no longer is in effect.

(As some do.)

Where do you find this separation in scripture
which gives Jews a different path than others?

And if someone converts to your religion, does their path change?

 

[alypius]

If Yahweh is the one true God, and heaven and hell exists, then this woman's soul will be tortured in hell for all eternity?

Where does it say that this person will be in hell?

 

[ppp]

Where does it say that this person will be in hell?

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.612 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"613 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"614

"

 

[Sedim Haba]

Where do you find this separation in scripture
which gives Jews a different path than others?

Exodus 19:6 - '... and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’

Some context: Priest is not about being better, or more important, it's about responsibility.
Holy (Kodesh in Hebrew) it means to be set apart for a special purpose. (Not meaning divine)
This is all conditional on Israel staying on the path.

And if someone converts to your religion, does their path change?

Our mystics claim the very soul changes. Path most certainly changes forever.

Again, some context: Conversion is the process of joining the People of Israel legally.
Currently, it's not what it should be. For many reasons too complex for here.

However, anyone at any time can accept the Covenant of Sinai. No one is excluded.

Deuteronomy 29:14-15
'Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath; but with him that standeth
here with us this day before the LORD our G-d, and also with him that is not here with
us this day...'

All souls, anyone who accepts the Covenant as Israel did... Exodus 19:8

'All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.'

 

[Muffled]

I believe God is moral and you are not for saying He is. It is called blasphemy.

 

[Muffled]

And I'll add that a serial killer sentenced to death can accept the one true God, go through the process of having his sins absolved, and then he can go to heaven after death for all eternity. That is disgustingly immoral.

Are you saying it is better for a person to remain in sin so your ideas of justice can be satisfied? I would that all sinners would do the same and be saved.

 

[Muffled]

God is the Lord of all religions so why wouldn’t He accept her Hindu prayers? All humanity are God’s children. God loves Hindus just as He loves Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists.

Heaven and hell are metaphors for spiritual life or spiritual death. So life is the life of faith and death is the spiritual death of unbelief. If we turn against God and choose a life of crime and violence we will create our own hell, but if we love each other then this world will become like a paradise.

I believe the concept that Heaven and Hell are metaphors lacks evidence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I believe the concept that Heaven and Hell are metaphors lacks evidence.

Apparently Jesus was in heaven the same time He walked the earth. Heaven here is a state or condition of nearness to God.

John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

That's a interesting fairytale. I don't think its in the bible though.

Go ahead and look up all references to Paradise, Prison and Hell in the Bible.

It takes some actual knowledge about what the Bible teaches concerning free will, accountability, forgiveness and spirits to put it all together - but those three places/conditions exist in the Bible.

 

[Sheldon]

And what's the place of anger and hate? No place, or does it have a place and purpose in our "biology"?

You don't think anger is part of an animals fight of flight response, and might provide a survival advantage, and thus through natural selection, be more likely to allow the possessor to survive, and reach sexual maturity, and thus the trait is more likely to passed on. Which is why it is a trait we observe in animals, including human animals. The human brain enables us to also problem solve, but anger would be innate in us, as it provided a survival advantage. That sudden rush of adrenalin is not an accident, when we are suddenly surprised or scared, or in pain.

Anger however would be utterly redundant, in a deity with limitless power and knowledge. Just like an omnipotent resting for a day after a hard week of creating, a pointless and nonsensical idea.

 

[joelr]

I don't agree in principle your position about Deuteronomy.
Apparently you haven't seen the effects of the rape of Nanking nor do you understand the immorality of the Japanese at than time. Japanese DID plunder women and children. Used them, abused them and many times killed them. Did you not study history?

Honestly this makes no sense? Does any one else see how bizarre this is? I'm commenting on how immoral Yahweh is for giving laws that when a city is invaded the women and children are to be taken as plunder. As in - IT'S IMMORAL AND DISGUSTING for Yahweh to do this?
So this person who believes Yahweh is a real deity is agreeing that plunder is immoral? Of course it is? So Yahweh is immoral? The End? What is the point of this post?

(get ready for some apologetics that excuse Yahweh)

Because the two atomic bombs killed men, women and children. So, what is it, was it immoral to stop the Japanese continued plunder and wanton killing and abuse of people? Or is it moral to let the Japanese continue to plunder and wanton killing? To say yes to the first question is to say yes to the second or to say no to the first is to say no to the second and accept Deuteronomy.

In either case, your position is mute

Ah, I think I see what this is about. You have been brainwashed to believe that stopping the Japanese from plundering the Chinese that means that one accepts Deuteronomy. HA HA HA HA HA HA.
The church truly prevents critical thinking.
It is moral to stop plundering. But that has NOTHING to do with Deuteronomy 20.

It is moral to stop plundering of women and children. D 20 says to kill all the men and take women and children as plunder. In EVERY CITY. EVERY. CITY. (Except the 6 cities you kill everything.)

Stopping the Japanese from plunder has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEUTERONOMY 20????? We stop that by sending troops in until we defeat their troops. Then we DO NOT PLUNDER, WE DO NOT KILL ALL THE MEN? We take prisoners. We disarm the nation then send the prisoners back to their country.

Yes we used atomic bombs. 2 cities were destroyed. Tokyo was also destroyed from conventional bombs. The Japanese surrendered. We immediately sent the soldiers home, brought food and relief workers and spent a decade helping them rebuild a country. We allowed the Emperor to remain.
Here is what we did not do which Deuteronomy 20 says to do AS AN OFFICIAL LAW FROM YAHWEH - plunder all the women and children in Japan. There were millions of them after the war. We also did not kill every living thing because they worship a different god and may corrupt American Christians. In fact some Americans became Buddhist.

So your ridiculous apologetic comparisons to Deuteronomy is a complete utter fail. Had we used those laws we would take all the remaining women and children in Japan as plunder. Or, we would exterminate all living things in Japan, including cattle.

Deuteronomy 20 does not say - when fighting the nation of an enemy you must defeat the enemy until they surrender. Then you leave the women and children alone. In fact you also donate some food to each family. You take the weapons from the men and you do not kill them after surrender. You do not take the heathens as slaves. You also help them rebuild.
If the enemy is plundering another nation you also follow this law. You only kill until they surrender and you do not plunder, take as permanent slaves or write ridiculous apologetics that cause future people to think Deuteronomy 20 is actually moral because of a flawed nonsense comparison.