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Yet another ridiculous comment on rape by a politician - say it ain't so!

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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Legion, I apologize for not addressing your post point by point, but I'm on a smartphone and it's a pain adding tags.

First off, I am not talking about hunting rifles and guns with other reasonable uses, that stay locked in a cabinet at home, or are collected as a hobby. I'm talking about handguns, which are designed for killing humans, and the desire to hide one on your person and carry it everywhere you go. Surely you might find it odd if a katana collector argued they needed to carry one around with them everywhere in case they are attacked.

Secondly, everybody in Switzerland is in the militia. They don't have a standing army. I'm not opposed to arming whatever citizens you hope will provide for your national defense, police or others who might be able to demonstrate a significant likelihood of imminent danger on the job.

In Canada, we've got piles and piles of guns. They're for getting dinner, and they're locked in a cupboard until you want to go get some dinner. They're not miniaturized for easy concealment and packed around with us everywhere we go, just in case we need to shoot and kill another human being.

These articles may interest you if you want to see some persuasive opposing arguments. There's not much point entering a dialogue if you're convinced the opposition is insincere, driven by secret motives, or ignorant of their own true motives.

Washington Post
Washington Post

Sounds like just the kind of thing an agent of the Secret Organization to Take Away Peoples' Guns and Control Their Minds (SOTAPGCTM) would say. Admit it! You want to take away my guns...I mean my rights, and turn my children into gays! The only thing standing between me and your evil Overlords is the wise and munificent NRA, with its pure mission of patriotism and freedom!
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
You speak as though safety concerns and dislike of guns are two separate issues. I dislike handguns because they are dangerous, and because their sole purpose is killing human beings.
Actually, I see it as an opportunity and incentive for some yahoo to pause and think, engage brain, and reconsider their actions. Your mileage may vary.

In any other western country in the world, you would be seen by most people as a dangerous and unstable person if you felt a need to carry a very dangerous weapon designed for the sole propose of killing human beings. I'm saying that not to insult, but to point out that American gun culture obviously has its own unique norms if such behavior is considered sensible, safe and pragmatic, but they are not universal norms. Otherwise you would expect to see those norms emerge elsewhere. As in any culture clash, it's going to be quite difficult for each culture to understand the other. Pretending reasonable concerns about gun safety and gun violence are hysterical or irrational certainly isn't going to help if your aim is to understand the opposite point of view.
Like I said, a gun can give an irrational person some incentive become rational quite quickly.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sounds like just the kind of thing an agent of the Secret Organization to Take Away Peoples' Guns and Control Their Minds (SOTAPGCTM) would say. Admit it! You want to take away my guns...I mean my rights, and turn my children into gays! The only thing standing between me and your evil Overlords is the wise and munificent NRA, with its pure mission of patriotism and freedom!
Bleating sheep can ignore government's insatiable appetite to control us, & pretend that they'll give
you security by chipping away at all those scary liberties. But the day may come when you'll whine,
"Oh, Revoltingest! Why didn't you warn me more sternly? If only you had forced me heed your call to defend the Constitution!".
And I'll be all like, "Told ya so!".

A typical Democrat being told that someone somewhere owns a gun!
[youtube]8gzFUyg6L6A[/youtube]
Sheep is scared - YouTube
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
You bleating sheep can ignore government's insatiable appetite to control us, & pretend that they'll give you security by chipping away at all those scary liberties. But the day may come when you'll whine, "Oh, Revoltingest! Why didn't you warn me more sternly? If only you had forced me to listen & heed your call to defend the Constitution!". And I'll be all like, "Told ya so!".

Kool-aidHandgun.jpg
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion, I apologize for not addressing your post point by point, but I'm on a smartphone and it's a pain adding tags.
No problem. I've been there and it is very frustrating.

First off, I am not talking about hunting rifles and guns with other reasonable uses, that stay locked in a cabinet at home, or are collected as a hobby. I'm talking about handguns, which are designed for killing humans, and the desire to hide one on your person and carry it everywhere you go.

I understand. But handguns are not necessarily designed for killing humans. There are single shot .22 pistols specifically designed from the ground up for target practice. Then there are collectibles like the .500 S&W, which can't be used for just about anything other than target shooting unless one is rhino or elephant (and, unlike hunting rifles which were designed for such purposes back when that was legal, this revolver is fairly recent and long after it was no longer legal to hunt those animals).

Also, so far as Sweden is concerned, in addition to an arsenal of handguns, citizens own and can travel (thanks to loopholes) with assault rifles. The number of fully automatic assault rifles is unknown, but thanks to liberal policing policies of military weapons leased to civilians and then not returned,fully-automatic military issue weapons are found alongside their semi-auto equivalents, albeit in lesser numbers.

Surely you might find it odd if a katana collector argued they needed to carry one around with them everywhere in case they are attacked.

Of course. I wasn't defending the mentality behind carrying a lethal weapon, simply that it is not true guns are solely for killing humans, even those which were designed specifically for that purpose. Like katanas, assault weapons are used for things other than killing humans.

Secondly, everybody in Switzerland is in the militia.
Not everyone. Not even all males. But the important thing is that unlike most military organizations in the West, where firearms are closely monitered and belong at all times to the government, the Swiss require their male citizens and allow females the option of keeping military issue weapons in their homes. Additionally, they can hang onto these when they are no longer in the militia. Finally, it is possible to carry firearms without being in the militia both with and without a license.

In Canada, we've got piles and piles of guns. They're for getting dinner, and they're locked in a cupboard until you want to go get some dinner.
Canada lacks the gun culture of both the US and Sweden.


These articles may interest you if you want to see some persuasive opposing arguments. There's not much point entering a dialogue if you're convinced the opposition is insincere, driven by secret motives, or ignorant of their own true motives.

I don't believe it is insincere. I genuinely believe that the concerns the gun control advocates have are sincere (and at times agree). However, I believe both sides, pro-gun control and against, misuse statistics, mischaracterize issues, and at times make arguments which are not as compelling or as accurate as even those making them think. Both sides, for example, seems to consciously or unconsciously ignore certain truths when it comes to the US constitution.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Pfft. Sounds more like crony capitalism--manufacturers looking to monopolize a certain market--gone awry. Oops!

It isn't good for any manufacturer. All of them have 2 choices: design handguns which are Massachusetts compliant, or don't sell. Most go with the latter, and all of them continue to sell guns which are not Massachusetts compliant.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
No problem. I've been there and it is very frustrating.



I understand. But handguns are not necessarily designed for killing humans. There are single shot .22 pistols specifically designed from the ground up for target practice. Then there are collectibles like the .500 S&W, which can't be used for just about anything other than target shooting unless one is rhino or elephant (and, unlike hunting rifles which were designed for such purposes back when that was legal, this revolver is fairly recent and long after it was no longer legal to hunt those animals).

Also, so far as Sweden is concerned, in addition to an arsenal of handguns, citizens own and can travel (thanks to loopholes) with assault rifles. The number of fully automatic assault rifles is unknown, but thanks to liberal policing policies of military weapons leased to civilians and then not returned,fully-automatic military issue weapons are found alongside their semi-auto equivalents, albeit in lesser numbers.



Of course. I wasn't defending the mentality behind carrying a lethal weapon, simply that it is not true guns are solely for killing humans, even those which were designed specifically for that purpose. Like katanas, assault weapons are used for things other than killing humans.


Not everyone. Not even all males. But the important thing is that unlike most military organizations in the West, where firearms are closely monitered and belong at all times to the government, the Swiss require their male citizens and allow females the option of keeping military issue weapons in their homes. Additionally, they can hang onto these when they are no longer in the militia. Finally, it is possible to carry firearms without being in the militia both with and without a license.


Canada lacks the gun culture of both the US and Sweden.




I don't believe it is insincere. I genuinely believe that the concerns the gun control advocates have are sincere (and at times agree). However, I believe both sides, pro-gun control and against, misuse statistics, mischaracterize issues, and at times make arguments which are not as compelling or as accurate as even those making them think. Both sides, for example, seems to consciously or unconsciously ignore certain truths when it comes to the US constitution.

Are we still talking about Switzerland? Or do I need to look up gun laws in Sweden too?

Did you get a chance to glace at my links? There is quite a bit of information on Switzerland's "gun culture". First, they are shifting to storing military weapons at central depots as opposed to people's homes for safety. Second, they do not allow concealed carry without demonstrating exceptional need, and they require you to demonstrate the situation has not changed every six months.

When I was in Europe, I did go to Switzerland. Nobody was packing. I wonder if perhaps the impression you've picked up is somewhat inaccurate.

I'll grant you that some guns are useless for shooting humans. I don't mind if you want to carry around a musket, for example. :D I'm not talking about collecting or target shooting, though, I am specifically talking about secretly packing heat. It's a bizarre thing to do, from the perspective of law-abiding citizens of every OECD country except the US. I don't understand the impulse to be perpetually vigilant against possible attack.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Bleating sheep can ignore government's insatiable appetite to control us, & pretend that they'll give
you security by chipping away at all those scary liberties. But the day may come when you'll whine,
"Oh, Revoltingest! Why didn't you warn me more sternly? If only you had forced me heed your call to defend the Constitution!".
And I'll be all like, "Told ya so!".

A typical Democrat being told that someone somewhere owns a gun!
[youtube]8gzFUyg6L6A[/youtube]
Sheep is scared - YouTube

Yeah, I hate when people take away my right to get accidentally shot and killed walking down the street.
 
Revoltingest said:
A typical Democrat being told that someone somewhere owns a gun!
Yes because 90% of Americans opposing concealed handguns on college campuses = Democrats afraid of "someone somewhere" owning a gun. :facepalm:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes because 90% of Americans opposing concealed handguns on college campuses = Democrats afraid of "someone somewhere" owning a gun. :facepalm:
Wait.....you object to my generalization, but not to the claim that the actual sheep is a Democrat?
It always amazes me where common ground is to be found!
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Pretending reasonable concerns about gun safety and gun violence are hysterical or irrational certainly isn't going to help if your aim is to understand the opposite point of view.

Okay, then why don't you take that...

you would be seen by most people as a dangerous and unstable person if you felt a need to carry a very dangerous weapon designed for the sole propose of killing human beings.

...and apply it to this, because it goes both ways.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Yeah, I hate when people take away my right to get accidentally shot and killed walking down the street.

What about your right to get accidentally struck and killed crossing the street by a car (which happens far more frequently)? Where's the outrage?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
do I need to look up gun laws in Sweden too?
No, I was in a hurry. My apologies.

There is quite a bit of information on Switzerland's "gun culture". First, they are shifting to storing military weapons at central depots as opposed to people's homes for safety. Second, they do not allow concealed carry without demonstrating exceptional need, and they require you to demonstrate the situation has not changed every six months.

Yes, but I've seen this before. There are similar articles from the pro-gun crowd which use Switzerland to show that handing out assault rifles and military pistols reduces crime. Both sides select particular data and run with it. The gun control advocates pretend that the militia is somehow comparable to military possession of guns, ignore the gun culture, and much else, while the pro-gun crowd ignores the cultural differences between the Swiss "gun culture" and the US as well as the far greater prevalency of violence in the US. One can't find Swiss college students at a gun store having never held a gun before.

Rather than look at media articles, press releases, and similar sources, I've relied on thing like peer-reviewed articles, publications by international organizations devoted to reducing small-arms traffic, global violence, and so forth (WHO, HEUNI, Eurostat, etc.), and other scholarship. Of course, even this material can have biases, but the nature of academic discourse compared to popular media limits these. Descriptions like the following are not rare:

"Any consideration of Swiss firearms law must recognize that the people are free to come and go to shooting competitions throughout the country, and competitors are commonly seen with firearms on trains, buses, bicycles, and on foot. Assault rifles are hung on hat racks in restaurants and are carried on the shoulder on the sidewalk. While a rifle with a folding stock may be carried in a backpack—its telltale barrel with flash suppressor sticking out of the top—rifles are otherwise just carried without cases...Since the founding of the Swiss Confederation in 1291, every man has been required to be armed and to serve in the militia army. Today, every male when he turns twenty years old is issued a Sturmgewehr 90 military rifle and required to keep it at home. When one is no longer required to serve—typically at age forty-two—he may keep his rifle (converted from automatic to semi-automatic) or pistol (in the case of an officer or specialized unit). Of the pervasive rifle in the pantry of the typical Swiss home, one observer quipped: “When the Swiss housewife cleans the closets, she takes her husband’s rifle and polishes that too. There may be shinier soldiers than the Swiss, but truly there are no shinier rifles than those of the Swiss." Citizens in Arms: The Swiss Experience

Also, interestingly enough, scholarly sources tend to de-emphasize military rifles and pistols when comparing Switzerland to other countries in studies on global, European, or Western gun violence, but not when the same journals, groups, etc., write about Switzerland alone:

"By law, every Swiss citizen subjected to military service in the Swiss Army keeps his personal military weapon at home in between the trainings. At the completion of the mandatory service, the army weapons (handgun and assault rifle) can be kept or returned. At the time of the study, every Swiss soldier also kept a limited amount of personal ammunition at home. This specific clause in the Swiss weapon law has now been changed as a direct and first consequence of the recent political debate. At the same time, shooting as a sport has a long tradition in Switzerland. Therefore, any person without a criminal record can purchase a weapon as well as ammunition, store it at home and use it for shooting sport. All together, an estimated 2.2 million modern weapons are owned by approximately 7.4 million Swiss citizens, with a weapon present in almost 1 in every 3 Swiss households."
Homicide–Suicide Cases in Switzerland and Their Impact on the Swiss Weapon Law

Perhaps the best contrast demonstrating the pro-gun control attitude behind most academic sources is the following two studies. In "International correlations between gun ownershipand rates of homicide and suicide", a study which included the US, Europe, and Canada, they managed to get low numbers for gun ownership and gun related falaties by excluding "military weapons", which is a primary source of private ownership. However, when the goal wasn't to compare Switzerland to other countries (in particular the US), all of a sudden military guns (including pistols and including privately owned or leased military weapons) are the focus, in e.g., "Use of Army Weapons and Private Firearms for Suicide and Homicide in the Region of Basel, Switzerland." Privately owned guns involved in fatalities included assault rifles and pistols (among other guns). We find a 19 year old using his father's pistol for revenge, a nearly 50 year old man killing his estranged wife with an army pistol his friend left him, and in fact nearly half the pistols used in homicides in this study (which only covered a single region in Switzerland) were acquired illegally thanks to the availability of guns in that country. The authors conclude that the militia system has too many loopholes allowing the supply of military weapons, from pistols to assault rifles, to pass from hand to hand quite apart from any military regulation.

Nobody was packing. I wonder if perhaps the impression you've picked up is somewhat inaccurate.
That's possible. I have only the various international groups, academic journals and volumes, and the people I know who have spent time in Switzerland for military or paramilitary training. On the other hand, how do you know who was carrying?

You are, I believe, absolutely correct that the "gun mentality" in Switzerland is dissimilar in many ways to the US. But the militia was created in much the same way that the US's militia was, and its mandate is remarkably similar to the reason behind US 2nd amendment. I believe much of the gun culture in the US stems from the countries origins and the "gun in every household" going back to the inception of this country. That same "gun in every household" ideal is realized far more in Switzerland than here. The difference is not in the amount of lethal weaponry, access to firearms, gun laws, or anything to do with gun control. It is that the US is a more violent culture and although many places where guns are prevalent do have a love of shooting, competition, and other non-violent gun-related activities, there is also a "don't tread on me" mindset as well. Switzerland has repeatedly resisted stricter gun control. And thanks to loopholes and the sheer prevalence of guns, people do carry on their person or in their vehicles. But it is not (so far as I can tell), for defence. So while it is easy enough to find people in Switzerland with pistols and assault rifles, unlike their US counterparts they may very well never carry except (as they are supposed to) to sporting events or gun clubs.

I am specifically talking about secretly packing heat.
I understand. And I agree that someone carrying a concealed firearm is almost always carrying it just in case they have to use it on another human. I simply objected to the idea that the guns they carry are themselves solely for that.

It's a bizarre thing to do, from the perspective of law-abiding citizens of every OECD country except the US. I don't understand the impulse to be perpetually vigilant against possible attack.
Where I lived almost my entire life (Massachusetts), it was a bizarre thing. I'm used to that view, and I have held it myself. In all honesty, I am not that big of a fan of guns. I have trained rather extensively with them mainly because 1) of a previous job and 2) because I moved out of traditional martial arts years ago and now train in combat oriented styles and with groups that continually develop their tactics based on real-world experience from law enforcement and special operations groups. But I don't carry a firearm.

On the other hand, I have been attacked, and it was a potentially lethal situation. I have never been able to come up with even a speculative theory concerning why I was targeted. Had I been carrying then, the incident may have stopped just as it started. I do not personally know many citizens who have successfully defended themselves from an assailant or assailants using their firearm. It is very difficult to get an idea from the literature on how frequently armed citizens prevent violence (especially compared to how easy it is to get the numbers on how often serious harm or death is caused by gun-related accidents). I disagree with most of those who are anti-gun control in the US who believe that the 2nd amendment unconditionally guarentees citizens the right to firearms or that owning a gun is a fundamental right. I do believe, however, that comparing gun violence in the US to countries like Canada or European countries and ascribing the differences to gun control is flawed logic. Gun control would not work in this country in the ways it has worked elsewhere for many of the same reasons the prevalence of guns in Switzerland cannot be compared to the prevalence in the US.
 
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McBell

Unbound
I do not understand this "if you have a gun you have to shoot someone" mentality that runs so rampart in this thread.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not understand this "if you have a gun you have to shoot someone" mentality that runs so rampart in this thread.
If you carry a loaded firearm for self-defense, you should be prepared to shoot someone or you shouldn't carry. I say loaded because I know of some instructors who specialize in women's self-defense or at least teach courses for women who have advised women who are interested in carrying but don't think they could pull the trigger to carry an unloaded firearm. The idea is that the threat is still there, but in the event the assailant gets control of the gun they cannot use it against their victim. I find this rather idiotic, especially compared to alternative self-defense measures, but the point is that at least they would never have a "you have to shoot someone mentality" because they don't have a loaded gun.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
If you carry a loaded firearm for self-defense, you should be prepared to shoot someone or you shouldn't carry. I say loaded because I know of some instructors who specialize in women's self-defense or at least teach courses for women who have advised women who are interested in carrying but don't think they could pull the trigger to carry an unloaded firearm. The idea is that the threat is still there, but in the event the assailant gets control of the gun they cannot use it against their victim. I find this rather idiotic, especially compared to alternative self-defense measures, but the point is that at least they would never have a "you have to shoot someone mentality" because they don't have a loaded gun.
I agree. If you draw a gun, you had better be prepared to use it if necessary. Otherwise, you run the risk of having it taken away from you and have it used against you. If you don't have to use it, all the better. If you can diffuse the situation without drawing it at all, better yet.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I do not understand this "if you have a gun you have to shoot someone" mentality that runs so rampart in this thread.

if you can't understand it, why bother to pretend that's what you are seeing?

Please tell me:

What purpose might a person have for carrying a concealed firearm on their person in an urban environment, other than either criminal intentions or self-defense? How does one defend themselves with a handgun other than shooting and probably killing somebody?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I agree. If you draw a gun, you had better be prepared to use it if necessary. Otherwise, you run the risk of having it taken away from you and have it used against you. If you don't have to use it, all the better. If you can diffuse the situation without drawing it at all, better yet.

I also agree with that. The last thing you want to do if you are attacked is provide your attacker with a gun.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Do you have anything serious to add to the discussion, or do you just want to stick to useless exaggerations?

It is suggested that guns are carried as a form of insurance or protection.
In which case why not make them generally available, like fire extinguishers.
However it does exposes the stupidity of carrying for protection.
 
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