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Yet another school with racism problems

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It's really bad in a lot of places. Not everywhere, certainly, but it's bad. Especially with cops and how they handle black men. Definitely pay attention to Black Lives Matter. On youtube look up the channel Real News Network. They have been doing a great job at talking about the issues with race in the US right now. They have a lot of video's about it on there from people in the know and actively involved in some manner.
As I see it, cops are way, way down on the list of the black community's problems. A drop in the bucket. I wouldn't want a cop's job today, would you?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
As I see it, cops are way, way down on the list of the black community's problems. A drop in the bucket. I wouldn't want a cop's job today, would you?

Honestly not. Look at the stats and data with it. It's been part of the problem for a long, long time. I do agree I wouldn't be a cop now. Not even in a prison either.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The world does owe you something. It owes you to TRY to treat people with dignity and respect. If someone is treating you horribly, especially for things you can't control like your race, gender, sexuality, people don't deserve that. It's called humanity. Empathy. Sympathy. Why shouldn't we want a better world?
Empathy, sympathy, humanity. Sure. That's basic social etiquette. But still, the world owes you nothing. The world does not revolve around you. You are not important. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but life is harsh.

Nothing wrong with trying to make a better world. At the same time, apart from honest to god hate speech, that "better world" might just be subjective. I mean I call myself curry and playfully mock my friends' inability to do so, telling them "Political Correctness privilege, *****es." But I sometimes wonder if my playful banter isn't reality some days.

This isn't about "therapist sessions." Why should students be called the 'n' word for getting an education? Why should they be harassed? Why should they be targets of violence for getting an education and doing like everyone else and trying to better their lives? Is that acceptable behavior? To live in fear for getting an education and trying to live in this world? Maybe you should pay more attention to what the students are saying. They're also trying to fight for better quality education and to lower the cost (now it's free education for University a lot of student protesters seem to be pushing which I'm for since college and medicine are the #1 ways of with people can go into debt here in the US).

Again, no one should be subject to racism or homophobia or whatever ism you can think of. So what exactly are the allegations of racism that is occurring here? At this Uni College whatever, are people just going around every day yelling racial slurs at people? Are black people being actively excluded from social events? Have people been bashed for being black? Is this like the Jim Crow era? Are students running around lynching people?

I mean okay, there's not a lot of black people teaching. So? A teacher can be purple and still teach you effectively. It's like in English class, if you read a book and can't relate to the book in any way shape or form just because they protagonist isn't the exact shade of color you are, that's your problem.

Lower cost of education and higher quality, yeah that I can get behind.

Though is it true that teachers are paid abysmally in the US?

POC- People of Color. If you listen to people talk about the issue who are non-white and white alike talk about general speaking and not one particular group (it includes anyone non-white). I hope that makes sense. It's a way to include everyone and not just say black people, latino, asian etc. But in talking about everyone non-white. I admit I used to feel the same way but as I understood more about the term it made sense and it just is a lazy way of talking about people when you're talking about issues. Instead of saying every group out there who is non-white. I hope that makes sense to you.

Considering that many North Indians are as white as snow, as are many different Asians and many people of the Mediterranean, the whole POC thing probably isn't as inclusive as it wants to be. The term is oddly too broad and too narrow, somehow both at the same time. No small feat.
And white people experience racism too. It's not a one way street.

And yes you do. If you haven't dealt with depression yourself you can't relate in the same regard. You can be educated on it all day long. These are COUNSELORS. They're supposed to COUNSEL people. How is a white person, especially a white woman who is the most protected class of people in the US, going to relate at all to a poc person going through racism? I might, in a lesser extent, understand sexism as a woman, but not racism. I'm a white woman and am never really going to ever understand it and especially living in the US.

Which is why there's group sessions available normally. But even still, again what is it that one feels when one is subjected to racism? Perhaps anger, despair, sadness, a sense of rejection, lowered self esteem, jealousy, hurt etc. These are all human emotions, felt by everyone at some point. Particularly those who are bullied in life. How can you not relate to it on some primal level?
Like an author for example, if skilled enough, could realistically portray racism as it's felt by a "POC" effectively even if they've never experienced it personally or are "white." People can relate to experiences even if they've never experienced it personally. We do it all the time through fiction.

The idea of getting counselled is not so you can be like "oh wow this person really understood me" it's more along the lines of "wow, this person really helped me to see the situation for what it was and guided me effectively." Which is better than just having a bubble. If you want like minded experiences, join or start a bloody club or something. I'm not saying that these kids shouldn't have at least one person who would understand their experiences first hand, but who's to say a few ombudsmen would accomplish that? Everyone experiences life differently. Some of the people who have related to me the most in my life are actually straight white males, despite being a south Indian woman. We are human, some things just bypass that skin color ****, you know?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
Empathy, sympathy, humanity. Sure. That's basic social etiquette. But still, the world owes you nothing. The world does not revolve around you. You are not important. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh, but life is harsh.

Nothing wrong with trying to make a better world. At the same time, apart from honest to god hate speech, that "better world" might just be subjective. I mean I call myself curry and playfully mock my friends' inability to do so, telling them "Political Correctness privilege, *****es." But I sometimes wonder if my playful banter isn't reality some days.



Again, no one should be subject to racism or homophobia or whatever ism you can think of. So what exactly are the allegations of racism that is occurring here? At this Uni College whatever, are people just going around every day yelling racial slurs at people? Are black people being actively excluded from social events? Have people been bashed for being black? Is this like the Jim Crow era? Are students running around lynching people?

I mean okay, there's not a lot of black people teaching. So? A teacher can be purple and still teach you effectively. It's like in English class, if you read a book and can't relate to the book in any way shape or form just because they protagonist isn't the exact shade of color you are, that's your problem.

Lower cost of education and higher quality, yeah that I can get behind.

Though is it true that teachers are paid abysmally in the US?



Considering that many North Indians are as white as snow, as are many different Asians and many people of the Mediterranean, the whole POC thing probably isn't as inclusive as it wants to be. The term is oddly too broad and too narrow, somehow both at the same time. No small feat.
And white people experience racism too. It's not a one way street.



Which is why there's group sessions available normally. But even still, again what is it that one feels when one is subjected to racism? Perhaps anger, despair, sadness, a sense of rejection, lowered self esteem, jealousy, hurt etc. These are all human emotions, felt by everyone at some point. Particularly those who are bullied in life. How can you not relate to it on some primal level?
Like an author for example, if skilled enough, could realistically portray racism as it's felt by a "POC" effectively even if they've never experienced it personally or are "white." People can relate to experiences even if they've never experienced it personally. We do it all the time through fiction.

The idea of getting counselled is not so you can be like "oh wow this person really understood me" it's more along the lines of "wow, this person really helped me to see the situation for what it was and guided me effectively." Which is better than just having a bubble. If you want like minded experiences, join or start a bloody club or something. I'm not saying that these kids shouldn't have at least one person who would understand their experiences first hand, but who's to say a few ombudsmen would accomplish that? Everyone experiences life differently. Some of the people who have related to me the most in my life are actually straight white males, despite being a south Indian woman. We are human, some things just bypass that skin color ****, you know?


Depends on your definition of "owe."

At this University I haven't heard of anything. But at the Missouri once that's happening. You're contradicting yourself. First you say the world owes you nothing then you say you're owed common decency. So, which is it? Does the world owe you something or not? And at the Missouri school two white guys were arrested for bringing guns on campus and making threats. Students are literally telling their professors they're having threats of violence against them for trying to get an education. Are you familiar at all with what's been happening in Missouri for the past while now? Do you know about Ferguson? Go look on twitter and see the mess on there with the threats and the campus police and police are taking the threats seriously.

This isn't Jim Crow. But it's very very close to it.

White people don't experience racism. They MIGHT experience prejudice but not racism. Familiar with white privilege?

Because, especially here in the US, people just DO NOT experience racism. Prejudice? Maybe. Racism? No. And especially not white women: the most protected class in the US and I say this as a white woman.

How can you help someone if you don't understand them and their experiences?

You can never REALLY understand unless you experience it in someway yourself. You can sympathize, empathy, be educated. But it's not the same. And these are supposed to be COUNSELORS. All these students are asking is to have more faculty that can relate to them and help them emotionally in their time in need while getting an education. What is wrong about that?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
This isn't Jim Crow. But it's very very close to it.
No way. not close! Jim Crow includes government supported racism. All I see now is random acts of bad behavior by the immature on all sides. The latter is always going to happen.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
No way. not close! Jim Crow includes government supported racism. All I see now is random acts of bad behavior by the immature on all sides. The latter is always going to happen.

What do you call the **** with the cops? The cops are supported and financed by the govt.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What do you call the **** with the cops? The cops are supported and financed by the govt.
They can not legally treat someone worse because of their race! If they do it is a against the law. Big difference between legal racism (Jim Crow laws) and individuals acting inappropriately. The latter is always sure to happen from time to time. Plus, I'm sure police don't treat what they perceive as young white punks very well either; I've heard stories.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Depends on your definition of "owe."

At this University I haven't heard of anything. But at the Missouri once that's happening. You're contradicting yourself. First you say the world owes you nothing then you say you're owed common decency. So, which is it? Does the world owe you something or not? And at the Missouri school two white guys were arrested for bringing guns on campus and making threats. Students are literally telling their professors they're having threats of violence against them for trying to get an education. Are you familiar at all with what's been happening in Missouri for the past while now? Do you know about Ferguson? Go look on twitter and see the mess on there with the threats and the campus police and police are taking the threats seriously.

I suppose.

But common decency isn't owed, it's a social structure designed to (in theory) lower the rates of friction in a group. So no, the world still owes you nothing. That's not to say one shouldn't expect the Golden Rule to apply. But with the exception of hate speech and anti harassment laws, there's no actual law forbidding people to be dickheads to one and other. I mean you can't lock someone up for being rude to you. It's just a courtesy extended, nothing more. And even then, common courtesy seems scarce these days. So......

And I ran far away from Twitter last year when the Gaming "community" started to deal with their Gamer Gate thingy. I haven't been back since because.........it's just a mess. Plus I have always found Twitter to be worse than the old YouTube comments section. I mean even 4Chan had some decency (true it was buried under people pretending to be ********, but still.) But Twitter? Nothing but inanity, stupidity and hostility as far as the eye can see. So I'll just take your word for it.
But maybe that's just my experience. :shrug:

This isn't Jim Crow. But it's very very close to it.
How so? With the police brutality thing, right? No offence, mate. But overseas your police force looks like a bunch of trigger happy thugs picking on everyone, not just black people. I mean we get reports of people (white, black, Asian etc) being ****ed over by your police force over here all the time. So from our perspective it looks like a police corruption thing, not a race thing. Not saying race isn't a factor, obviously in many areas it's probably the number one factor. But from an outsider's lens, it sort of looks like your News Channels race baits everyone. I mean ours do that too. Which is a pretty ****ty thing for them to do.
So it's like I don't know who to trust when it comes to these sorts of things. It's a little confusing to say the least.


White people don't experience racism. They MIGHT experience prejudice but not racism. Familiar with white privilege?

Oh not that white privilege nonsense. People say the same of the white people here. But I have seen white people experience racism with my own eyes. White trash, ignorant bogans, dole bludgers (slang for welfare cheats and lazy.) Don't you guys have "redneck hillbillies?" Stereotypes which paint them as ignorant uneducated lazy trouble making trash. All white stereotypes often employed by society, especially in some (not all) immigrant communities. And used against them. Take the Cronulla riots a few years ago. In which racial tensions boiled over, but it's not like either side were angels. Some "whites" were subjected to intimidation, threats and violence due to their race as were some Lebanese people. But even with our "casually racist" ways, it was wholly denounced by the media as "un-Australian." But the after effect stories were more to do with hearing the stories of racist white people than it was hearing the grievances of "whites." I think it even ignored those caught in the crossfire who pretty much accused the Lebanese men of starting the whole thing, even if they themselves were Lebanese.
I have seen my mixed race brethren flippantly accuse people of racism when called out for being troublemakers because they know it's an easy out.
There are even some places run by immigrants who secretly charge "white people" more than their own.
White privilege? Ha!! Goes both ways in my experience.
I, myself, am caught in the middle of two distinct "races" and I have absolutely been subject to racism from both sides. Too white for some Indians and therefore seen as "loose, immoral and without virtue" and a "shame to my family name" among others. Like I said Indians, not all, are racist as hell. Especially towards "whiteys." (Fun fact, the word "gora" which means white in Hindi is a racial slur used to denigrate a person perceived to be a traitor to "traditional Hindustani values." It's a post colonial thing, I guess. It's basically the opinion that the West are inferior and immoral.) And I have experienced racism from the other side, mostly by virtue of working in retail actually. I swear people lose all sense of decorum the second they enter a store. But also from bogans (our version of "trailer trash") telling me that I'm not a proper Aussie because my blood is Indian. To go back home, that I'm a "mutt" etc. So don't tell me that racism doesn't go both ways, it absolutely does. It might look/sound different to you because of differing cultures, but the feels are the same for the recipient either way.
But you know what? If you actually talk to these people, on both sides, you will find that often this supposed "racism" comes from very legitimate concerns. Not just ignorance. Ever tried that? To actually speak to people as people and not "black people" or "white people" and just straight up listen to them? Both have some very legit points, But I have noticed that the "white" side is often branded as racist at the mere hint of airing these concerns, but often the immigrant side can get away with a lot more in this regard.
Which I find rather interesting.

Because, especially here in the US, people just DO NOT experience racism. Prejudice? Maybe. Racism? No. And especially not white women: the most protected class in the US and I say this as a white woman.

I don't know if you're saying racism isn't a thing where you're from and that it's mostly prejudice, or if you're saying white people can't be judged solely on their race. The first option might be true where you live, I can't say one way or the other. But having been judged as white, brown and mixed all based solely on my outward appearance of "race" in a country where "white women" are also the most protected class, I call bull on the other option. It happens, people just choose to ignore it because..........I don't know. That identity politics rubbish? Not PC enough? Buggered if I know.

How can you help someone if you don't understand them and their experiences?

By that logic we should only allow psychologists, psychiatrists and councellors to obtain jobs only after they have experienced trauma. And only specialize in that specific type of trauma. Because how else can they help people? Never mind that in order to properly protect yourself as a councellor, psychologist, doctor, nurse etc is to remain detached at all times to some extent. And that includes the ombudsman that is proposed. Otherwise that poor ******* would need his/her own ombudsman just to keep sane and not dive into depression themselves. There's a reason why the suicide rate is pretty high in mental health fields, after all.
I mean my mother has never been disabled in all her life, she helps her disabled clients quite well all the same. Like you don't need to experience the exact same thing as your client/patient in order to help them. Everyone worth their weight in salt even dipping their toe into a medical/mental health field could tell you that.

If that is what one is looking for, start a club or go to group therapy. Like I don't know what to tell you. The mental health sector might often start gently, but often times at the end it can be harsh. Because that's what many people actually need. They need to cry and to be listened to at first of course. And then they need to be built back up. Even if that is done in a confrontational or uncomfortable manner. (Within ethical boundaries obviously.) And yes that includes people who have experienced racism. At their own pace, but eventually if they have a good psychologist or whatever, then at the end it will be a little harsh. You will have to learn to "toughen up" to a certain extent.

I don't know why people seem to think helping people in the capacity of mental health or dealing with trauma and the like is all pansy wishy washy hand holding stuff. Some of the harshest people I know work in those types of fields.

You can never REALLY understand unless you experience it in someway yourself. You can sympathize, empathy, be educated. But it's not the same. And these are supposed to be COUNSELORS. All these students are asking is to have more faculty that can relate to them and help them emotionally in their time in need while getting an education. What is wrong about that?

Nothing really. But why do they need that? I remember at my school the School Chaplain was the most helpful person in my teenaged life. But she was a white Christian and I'm a mixed race raised Hindu. So it begs the question, are they really looking for help or simply validation? Which is important, obviously. But can come across as well whiny, really.
 
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LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
.
I suppose.

But common decency isn't owed, it's a social structure designed to (in theory) lower the rates of friction in a group. So no, the world still owes you nothing. That's not to say one shouldn't expect the Golden Rule to apply. But with the exception of hate speech and anti harassment laws, there's no actual law forbidding people to be dickheads to one and other. I mean you can't lock someone up for being rude to you. It's just a courtesy extended, nothing more. And even then, common courtesy seems scarce these days. So......

With being dick heads to each other we're not talking about that. We're talking about students being called a racial slur that goes back to the days of slavery and getting harassed for getting an education. Do you know that? Why do you think this is about being dickheads? This is about actual harassment and slurs being said to people. The N word is verbal terrorism and has a long history in this country of being such.

And I ran far away from Twitter last year when the Gaming "community" started to deal with their Gamer Gate thingy. I haven't been back since because.........it's just a mess. Plus I have always found Twitter to be worse than the old YouTube comments section. I mean even 4Chan had some decency (true it was buried under people pretending to be ********, but still.) But Twitter? Nothing but inanity, stupidity and hostility as far as the eye can see. So I'll just take your word for it.
But maybe that's just my experience.

How so? With the police brutality thing, right? No offence, mate. But overseas your police force looks like a bunch of trigger happy thugs picking on everyone, not just black people. I mean we get reports of people (white, black, Asian etc) being ****ed over by your police force over here all the time. So from our perspective it looks like a police corruption thing, not a race thing. Not saying race isn't a factor, obviously in many areas it's probably the number one factor. But from an outsider's lens, it sort of looks like your News Channels race baits everyone. I mean ours do that too. Which is a pretty ****ty thing for them to do.
So it's like I don't know who to trust when it comes to these sorts of things. It's a little confusing to say the least.

No, not just black people but black men. Maybe listen to the people in the communities who are having these issues? Twitter is still a major force with social media today. And police and security campus in Missouri are taking it seriously. I don't use twitter either (never got into it) but it's still a big thing here anyways. I think IG is catching up though and other outlets like livestream and snapchat.


Oh not that white privilege nonsense. People say the same of the white people here. But I have seen white people experience racism with my own eyes. White trash, ignorant bogans, dole bludgers (slang for welfare cheats and lazy.) Don't you guys have "redneck hillbillies?" Stereotypes which paint them as ignorant uneducated lazy trouble making trash. All white stereotypes often employed by society, especially in some (not all) immigrant communities. And used against them. Take the Cronulla riots a few years ago. In which racial tensions boiled over, but it's not like either side were angels. Some "whites" were subjected to intimidation, threats and violence due to their race as were some Lebanese people. But even with our "casually racist" ways, it was wholly denounced by the media as "un-Australian." But the after effect stories were more to do with hearing the stories of racist white people than it was hearing the grievances of "whites." I think it even ignored those caught in the crossfire who pretty much accused the Lebanese men of starting the whole thing, even if they themselves were Lebanese.

White privilege is not nonsense. It's very real and I as a white woman experience it all the time when I'm out in public. No one is ever going to think twice about me because I'm a petite white woman with blonde hair and hazel eyes. If anything, for some reason, ever came between me and a black woman the same age, height, size etc the police would more likely believe me because I am the most protected class in America: a white woman.

Yes, we do here in the south but they're part of the majority as white people. Whites are still a majority here though it's gradually catching up.
 
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LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
I have seen my mixed race brethren flippantly accuse people of racism when called out for being troublemakers because they know it's an easy out.
There are even some places run by immigrants who secretly charge "white people" more than their own.
White privilege? Ha!! Goes both ways in my experience.
I, myself, am caught in the middle of two distinct "races" and I have absolutely been subject to racism from both sides. Too white for some Indians and therefore seen as "loose, immoral and without virtue" and a "shame to my family name" among others. Like I said Indians, not all, are racist as hell. Especially towards "whiteys." (Fun fact, the word "gora" which means white in Hindi is a racial slur used to denigrate a person perceived to be a traitor to "traditional Hindustani values." It's a post colonial thing, I guess. It's basically the opinion that the West are inferior and immoral.) And I have experienced racism from the other side, mostly by virtue of working in retail actually. I swear people lose all sense of decorum the second they enter a store. But also from bogans (our version of "trailer trash") telling me that I'm not a proper Aussie because my blood is Indian. To go back home, that I'm a "mutt" etc. So don't tell me that racism doesn't go both ways, it absolutely does. It might look/sound different to you because of differing cultures, but the feels are the same for the recipient either way.
But you know what? If you actually talk to these people, on both sides, you will find that often this supposed "racism" comes from very legitimate concerns. Not just ignorance. Ever tried that? To actually speak to people as people and not "black people" or "white people" and just straight up listen to them? Both have some very legit points, But I have noticed that the "white" side is often branded as racist at the mere hint of airing these concerns, but often the immigrant side can get away with a lot more in this regard.
Which I find rather interesting.

Mixed race is a whole different ball game. But if you have the power, as whites do world-wide, you can't have racism. You can have bigotry and prejudice but not out right racism. You have the power. Even if I was in Asia or South America people might say **** about me but are they going to bother me? Probably not unless I do something to f with them first.

In terms of the issues about racism and white people I highly suggest this post. I think it explains it very well-

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/racist-against-white-people/

It does a better job than me that's for sure.

Basically, it boils down to racism being about oppression and as long as white people have the power they can't be oppressed. Does that make sense?

I don't know if you're saying racism isn't a thing where you're from and that it's mostly prejudice, or if you're saying white people can't be judged solely on their race. The first option might be true where you live, I can't say one way or the other. But having been judged as white, brown and mixed all based solely on my outward appearance of "race" in a country where "white women" are also the most protected class, I call bull on the other option. It happens, people just choose to ignore it because..........I don't know. That identity politics rubbish? Not PC enough? Buggered if I know.

If you're mixed you're going to have different experiences than me who is not. I'm not mixed so I can't speak on that. I have known and have friends who are mixed and can sort of understand from listening to them. And please with the whole PC thing is nonsense. If you (general you) want to be a dick be a dick but other people are going to have their own feelings and opinions about what someone says. Free speech goes both ways. I've noticed over the years I've been in politics people cry about 'pc' when they're being told something they said wasn't right and was offensive like slamming people for their race, religion, sex, being sexist, sexuality.

It sounds more like to me you're talking more about prejudice and bigotry when talking about white people having issues. It's easy to have a very fine line between the two and get things confused.

But I do agree with you that even non-whites can have bigotry against other groups. I know it happens in South America a lot with other backgrounds and in Asia you see it a lot. I follow things in Korea sometimes (I used to really be into their pop culture and got into their politics) and they have a whole thing with Japan and other Southeast Asian groups and they're very much bigotry and prejudice against them because they're not from the same "tribe" I guess that's the right word.

By that logic we should only allow psychologists, psychiatrists and councellors to obtain jobs only after they have experienced trauma. And only specialize in that specific type of trauma. Because how else can they help people? Never mind that in order to properly protect yourself as a councellor, psychologist, doctor, nurse etc is to remain detached at all times to some extent. And that includes the ombudsman that is proposed. Otherwise that poor ******* would need his/her own ombudsman just to keep sane and not dive into depression themselves. There's a reason why the suicide rate is pretty high in mental health fields, after all.
I mean my mother has never been disabled in all her life, she helps her disabled clients quite well all the same. Like you don't need to experience the exact same thing as your client/patient in order to help them. Everyone worth their weight in salt even dipping their toe into a medical/mental health field could tell you that.

Counselors isn't being a psychologist. It's not being a psychiatrist. It's counseling. How can you counsel if you can't understand? Psychologist and psychiatrists aren't supposed to be emotionally invested in cases because it would wreck their bias in how they treat a client especially when they're dealing with diagnosing someone and issuing medicine. Counselors are on a different playing field.

It's good your mother is helping others like her. But being a counselor is different than that. You're supposed to COUNSEL people and if someone wants a person who relates to them in some regard why not? It's not exactly therapy or psychology. I don't think counselors issues medicine or anything like that. They just talk and are trained in how to deal with people and their emotions and all that similar to therapy. Right? Even your mother is helping people like her in a similar position. Why not the same with these students? All they're asking is to at least have the option available.

If that is what one is looking for, start a club or go to group therapy. Like I don't know what to tell you. The mental health sector might often start gently, but often times at the end it can be harsh. Because that's what many people actually need. They need to cry and to be listened to at first of course. And then they need to be built back up. Even if that is done in a confrontational or uncomfortable manner. (Within ethical boundaries obviously.) And yes that includes people who have experienced racism. At their own pace, but eventually if they have a good psychologist or whatever, then at the end it will be a little harsh. You will have to learn to "toughen up" to a certain extent.

I don't know why people seem to think helping people in the capacity of mental health or dealing with trauma and the like is all pansy wishy washy hand holding stuff. Some of the harshest people I know work in those types of fields.

Who says not to be harsh? You can be harsh when still knowing and having a similar background. You might even be more harsh because of your similar background. All they want is someone who can actually relate to them and their experiences and emotions etc. Why shouldn't the option be there?

Nothing really. But why do they need that? I remember at my school the School Chaplain was the most helpful person in my teenaged life. But she was a white Christian and I'm a mixed race raised Hindu. So it begs the question, are they really looking for help or simply validation? Which is important, obviously. But can come across as well whiny, really.

Because people have different needs and different ways of experiencing the world and dealing with things emotionally. And just because you think it's whiny obviously the president of the school disagree's and has already told he has plans to bring in more racial diverse staff and he's listening to them. And his opinion is really the only one that matters.

Sorry for the double post I had to split it. :\

And I wanted to say I've enjoyed the discussion with you. :grinning:
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
When are people going to wake up and realize that black mathematics professors are needed to offer the black perspective on numbers and equations? The black voice on arithmetic is woefully absent in American education!
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
With being dick heads to each other we're not talking about that. We're talking about students being called a racial slur that goes back to the days of slavery and getting harassed for getting an education. Do you know that? Why do you think this is about being dickheads? This is about actual harassment and slurs being said to people. The N word is verbal terrorism and has a long history in this country of being such.

******, is a slur, it's awful to use on people. That part is self explanatory. But alas this is purely an American thing. What with the word "nigga" being a thing over your way and not over here, except in jest. So I can't comment one way or the other.

No, not just black people but black men. Maybe listen to the people in the communities who are having these issues? Twitter is still a major force with social media today. And police and security campus in Missouri are taking it seriously. I don't use twitter either (never got into it) but it's still a big thing here anyways. I think IG is catching up though and other outlets like livestream and snapchat.

I don't know. Your police force kind of scares us a bit. I remember going to California last year and the latest story was some bloke getting shot because he was reaching for his license. I mean, wtf?
What's IG?

White privilege is not nonsense. It's very real and I as a white woman experience it all the time when I'm out in public. No one is ever going to think twice about me because I'm a petite white woman with blonde hair and hazel eyes. If anything, for some reason, ever came between me and a black woman the same age, height, size etc the police would more likely believe me because I am the most protected class in America: a white woman.

My mate tried that with the coppers once. Petite white woman she is, she still got her *** arrested. And yes, if you're curious the incident did involve someone "of color" making a complaint against her. Cops believed the woman of color more readily than my white friend. Oddly because they didn't want to be seen as racist. Funny that. Though to be fair, both were in the wrong.

But if Anita and Zoe what's her face can whinge about mean tweets to the UN, maybe you Americans really do treat white women like queens. I don't know.

Mixed race is a whole different ball game. But if you have the power, as whites do world-wide, you can't have racism. You can have bigotry and prejudice but not out right racism. You have the power. Even if I was in Asia or South America people might say **** about me but are they going to bother me? Probably not unless I do something to f with them first.

In terms of the issues about racism and white people I highly suggest this post. I think it explains it very well-

http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/racist-against-white-people/

It does a better job than me that's for sure.

Basically, it boils down to racism being about oppression and as long as white people have the power they can't be oppressed. Does that make sense?

Oh........... You're using the intersectional feminist definition of racism.... I see. Well this is why communication between us has been the way it is. We're essentially using two completely different definitions here. (You know, as a mixed race woman of a minority religion and trauma survivor, I have a whole host of problems with the intersectionalists, but I won't go into it here. Let's just say, I have a "history" tangling with the Intersectional Feminists. Or at least people claiming they are intersectional feminists. Not a fan of the whole identity politics thing, but then I have been caught in the crossfire of that for a while now. So I hope you understand.)
I am well aware of the intersectional feminist definition of racism. I just don't buy into it is all. And incidentally I don't think the Western law does either. As evidenced by the consequences of the very racist actions of a miss Bahar Mustafa. And yes, what she did was RACIST.
But I am not a sociologist, so what would I know?

See to me racism is harassing, threatening, physical violence and other actions perpetrated against a person (regardless of race) done based solely on their specific race.
If you go up to a person and beat them up simply because of their race, it doesn't matter if they have the numbers on their side (country wise) it's still racist. And yes, this has happened to white people in a predominately white country. At least in Australia. If you go up to a white person and yell obscenities at them just because they're white, it doesn't matter if they have the numbers on their side. This is still racist. To claim otherwise does a disservice to the term racism and trivializes the matter. At least for white people on the receiving end.
I feel like this is not the right solution for ending race conflicts. It's just replacing one set of racist problems with another.

Counselors isn't being a psychologist. It's not being a psychiatrist. It's counseling. How can you counsel if you can't understand? Psychologist and psychiatrists aren't supposed to be emotionally invested in cases because it would wreck their bias in how they treat a client especially when they're dealing with diagnosing someone and issuing medicine. Counselors are on a different playing field.

Well the only difference is level of education, actually. A counselor is basically a layman psychologist. And many counselors are on phone lines these days. How can they counsel multiple people every single day even if they have never met them or have only interacted with them once? Simple. That's what they're trained to do. Asking the right questions, talking to people in a specific way, diagnosing problems, looking for logical solutions etc this is what a counselor does on a daily basis. They don't need to have been suicidal in order to help a suicidal teen. They just do it.
But Anyone working in any field of mental health or medicine has to emotionally detach. Because they see/hear suffering day in day out. If they become too involved, as can happen to many people, they bring that home with them. So essentially everyone else's problems start to haunt them. This is a problem for counselors as well, mate. They have feelings too. You have to shut yourself off to some extent in order to cope properly. That's just how it is, mate. Anyone working in a health/mental health field will tell you the same after some experience. Even veterinarians have to shut off to some extent to maintain sanity.


It's good your mother is helping others like her. But being a counselor is different than that. You're supposed to COUNSEL people and if someone wants a person who relates to them in some regard why not? It's not exactly therapy or psychology. I don't think counselors issues medicine or anything like that. They just talk and are trained in how to deal with people and their emotions and all that similar to therapy. Right? Even your mother is helping people like her in a similar position. Why not the same with these students? All they're asking is to at least have the option available.

Umm, my mother is not disabled. She just helps people who are disabled. It's a field these days.

Well I never objected to it. They can if they want to. More power to them.
I just found it odd that these kids don't just rally together and share their own experiences amongst themselves. Why do you even need a member of faculty to fill that role? Just seems...........I don't know kind of first world stuff. I mean if these kids complained to MLK Jr about this, would he even entertain the thought? I think he'd be a bit appalled that that is what they're upset about. I'd frankly be embarrassed to bring this sort of stuff up with the likes of the Civil Rights Movement makers and shakers. You know? Seems a bit...........whiny.
But if that's what they legitimately need, whatever, it's not like I'm going to stand in their way.

Who says not to be harsh? You can be harsh when still knowing and having a similar background. You might even be more harsh because of your similar background. All they want is someone who can actually relate to them and their experiences and emotions etc. Why shouldn't the option be there?

Again, I never said they shouldn't.

Because people have different needs and different ways of experiencing the world and dealing with things emotionally. And just because you think it's whiny obviously the president of the school disagree's and has already told he has plans to bring in more racial diverse staff and he's listening to them. And his opinion is really the only one that matters.
Ahh so you and I don't count? Well..........that puts this discussion on a rather inane tangent wouldn't you say? ;)

Sorry for the double post I had to split it. :\

Yes, I think my last post was rejected for being over the word limit. Lol

And I wanted to say I've enjoyed the discussion with you. :grinning:

:)
It's been a nice civil discussion thus far. So much better than many of mine have been as of late. Very enjoyable indeed.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
If you're mixed you're going to have different experiences than me who is not. I'm not mixed so I can't speak on that. I have known and have friends who are mixed and can sort of understand from listening to them. And please with the whole PC thing is nonsense. If you (general you) want to be a dick be a dick but other people are going to have their own feelings and opinions about what someone says. Free speech goes both ways. I've noticed over the years I've been in politics people cry about 'pc' when they're being told something they said wasn't right and was offensive like slamming people for their race, religion, sex, being sexist, sexuality.
Sorry, cut my comment short again.

Ehh, get offended I say. Not the end of the world and not a particularly horrible thing to experience in reality. I have been offended quite a few times, nothing actually happened. I didn't die or get crippled or get a disease from it. I got over it. Moved on. Meh.

Actually I'm not wholly against PC. Just those when things go too far. And that's happening now. Comedians stifled because someone might get offended. Colleges in the news because they want safe spaces and reject legitimate discussions. Etc etc.
PC is nice in principle, just doesn't always jive well with those (like myself) with a dark sense of humor. Or with Aussies in general due to our rather rough rebellious insulting sense of humor.

Really? I have noticed that most people are now reacting to the hardcore SJW moves. I mean Social Justice is nice in principle but when taken too far is just....awful for everyone.

It sounds more like to me you're talking more about prejudice and bigotry when talking about white people having issues. It's easy to have a very fine line between the two and get things confused.

No, they experienced racism. They were denigrated, beaten and/or otherwise abused due to their race. That to me is racism. I don't care what you call it, it's the result of people being racists at the end of the day. For the record I am using this definition of racism.
Racism
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
  1. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
    "theories of racism"
    • prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

A white person being bashed because they happen to be white is racist. Just like a black person being bashed for being black is racist. It's not dependent of the geographical location. This new definition of racism might work in an academic setting, but in the world of the layman just seems to cause problems, because to many laymen it just looks like a way to excuse being racist against white people.
See, it just creates friction.

But I do agree with you that even non-whites can have bigotry against other groups. I know it happens in South America a lot with other backgrounds and in Asia you see it a lot. I follow things in Korea sometimes (I used to really be into their pop culture and got into their politics) and they have a whole thing with Japan and other Southeast Asian groups and they're very much bigotry and prejudice against them because they're not from the same "tribe" I guess that's the right word.

Yeah, it's unfortunate.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
******, is a slur, it's awful to use on people. That part is self explanatory. But alas this is purely an American thing. What with the word "nigga" being a thing over your way and not over here, except in jest. So I can't comment one way or the other.



I don't know. Your police force kind of scares us a bit. I remember going to California last year and the latest story was some bloke getting shot because he was reaching for his license. I mean, wtf?
What's IG?



My mate tried that with the coppers once. Petite white woman she is, she still got her *** arrested. And yes, if you're curious the incident did involve someone "of color" making a complaint against her. Cops believed the woman of color more readily than my white friend. Oddly because they didn't want to be seen as racist. Funny that. Though to be fair, both were in the wrong.

But if Anita and Zoe what's her face can whinge about mean tweets to the UN, maybe you Americans really do treat white women like queens. I don't know.

Yes, it does seem to be a US thing with the history of the word and all. Of course rap music is now international so it gets heard in that from people. I've seen Korean idols like rap music and say the word when they rap (oh no no no) a cover of a song and it's like WW3 goes off on them. They don't know the history of it either and aren't taught it in school. Of course now days there's the internet.... But they still don't know why it's bad. There's been this one guy who is very talented but has used it a few times and people have tried to calmly explain it to him. He seemed to get it and stopped using it for a while but went back and used it again. Then he got himself into trouble with black Kpop fans for wearing clothing that was made out of the Confederate flag. It was something Kanye West wore in jest and like a middle finger to people. But this guy not getting US history didn't know that and thought it was stylish.

Yes, even I find myself getting a little worried going out. But then I remember I'm more likely to not be bothered by police being the high squeaky voice, petite white woman with blonde hair and hazel eyes that I am. Plus, I'm 33 but I look 19-24 lol. And "in real life" I'm mostly quiet. But yeah there's lots of stories like that going around. It's not just black men but black men get it the harshest it seems like and the most. Instagram is IG heh.



Oh........... You're using the intersectional feminist definition of racism.... I see. Well this is why communication between us has been the way it is. We're essentially using two completely different definitions here. (You know, as a mixed race woman of a minority religion and trauma survivor, I have a whole host of problems with the intersectionalists, but I won't go into it here. Let's just say, I have a "history" tangling with the Intersectional Feminists. Or at least people claiming they are intersectional feminists. Not a fan of the whole identity politics thing, but then I have been caught in the crossfire of that for a while now. So I hope you understand.)
I am well aware of the intersectional feminist definition of racism. I just don't buy into it is all. And incidentally I don't think the Western law does either. As evidenced by the consequences of the very racist actions of a miss Bahar Mustafa. And yes, what she did was RACIST.
But I am not a sociologist, so what would I know?

But that is the definition of racism. It's oppression. As long as you have power you can't be oppressed. You can be beat down on and you can have prejudice and all that but you can't be oppressed as long as you have power that someone else doesn't have. Does that make sense?

If you're oppressing someone and taking away their power based on their skin that's racism. There are other ways that you can take power away from someone as well. See Christianity v Islam as a good example. Christian's (right wing ones) here in the US are constantly trying and doing so in taking away power from those who practice Islam.

See to me racism is harassing, threatening, physical violence and other actions perpetrated against a person (regardless of race) done based solely on their specific race.
If you go up to a person and beat them up simply because of their race, it doesn't matter if they have the numbers on their side (country wise) it's still racist. And yes, this has happened to white people in a predominately white country. At least in Australia. If you go up to a white person and yell obscenities at them just because they're white, it doesn't matter if they have the numbers on their side. This is still racist. To claim otherwise does a disservice to the term racism and trivializes the matter. At least for white people on the receiving end.
I feel like this is not the right solution for ending race conflicts. It's just replacing one set of racist problems with another.

Like I said above racism is when you're taking someone else's power, however much they have, and beating them down on it based on their skin. What you're talking about is more along the lines of bigotry, prejudice etc. You can't take power away from another white person if you're also white. The other white person is still going to have power to respond to what happened to them. The person will still have the authority in the said country give out a proper punishment.



Well the only difference is level of education, actually. A counselor is basically a layman psychologist. And many counselors are on phone lines these days. How can they counsel multiple people every single day even if they have never met them or have only interacted with them once? Simple. That's what they're trained to do. Asking the right questions, talking to people in a specific way, diagnosing problems, looking for logical solutions etc this is what a counselor does on a daily basis. They don't need to have been suicidal in order to help a suicidal teen. They just do it.
But Anyone working in any field of mental health or medicine has to emotionally detach. Because they see/hear suffering day in day out. If they become too involved, as can happen to many people, they bring that home with them. So essentially everyone else's problems start to haunt them. This is a problem for counselors as well, mate. They have feelings too. You have to shut yourself off to some extent in order to cope properly. That's just how it is, mate. Anyone working in a health/mental health field will tell you the same after some experience. Even veterinarians have to shut off to some extent to maintain sanity.




Umm, my mother is not disabled. She just helps people who are disabled. It's a field these days.

This is for University though. Counselors on University are there. My school had them. I never used them or anything but they were available on campus if you did. They had their own office and you could talk privately to someone. But we're not talking about the same thing with attachment. You're talking about people getting emotionally invested. These students are talking about someone who can relate and who understands because they are from the same background in regards to their race. As I said, I as a white woman and not mixed race or anything couldn't possibly understand the struggles someone goes through who is non-white in the US. I can empathize and be education as much as I can but I can't understand it because I haven't experienced it and I never will. So no, these students aren't talking about that. They're talking about having more diversity in the counseling staff to have people who can relate.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought I read you said your mother was disabled too. My bad.

Well I never objected to it. They can if they want to. More power to them.
I just found it odd that these kids don't just rally together and share their own experiences amongst themselves. Why do you even need a member of faculty to fill that role? Just seems...........I don't know kind of first world stuff. I mean if these kids complained to MLK Jr about this, would he even entertain the thought? I think he'd be a bit appalled that that is what they're upset about. I'd frankly be embarrassed to bring this sort of stuff up with the likes of the Civil Rights Movement makers and shakers. You know? Seems a bit...........whiny.
But if that's what they legitimately need, whatever, it's not like I'm going to stand in their way.


Again, I never said they shouldn't.


Ahh so you and I don't count? Well..........that puts this discussion on a rather inane tangent wouldn't you say? ;)



Yes, I think my last post was rejected for being over the word limit. Lol


:)
It's been a nice civil discussion thus far. So much better than many of mine have been as of late. Very enjoyable indeed.

I think it would be a great idea to have group "therapy" so to speak. Maybe that can be something they can do as well with a counselor. But sometimes you want one-on-one counseling because of private issues or you just don't feel comfortable airing out your issues to other people you don't really know that well. I don't know how well these students know each other. I don't think it's fair to say what someone dead would think about something going on in the 21st century when they're not here to defend themselves. I always find that really rude. And MLK Jr had meetings in his church and people got together and talked to each other about their grievances at the time. 2015 isn't the same as when he was alive.

Yes, I had the same issue. I wasn't sure what it was saying at first but then I figured it out and just split the post.

I'm glad it's been fun for you too. :D
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
Sorry, cut my comment short again.

Ehh, get offended I say. Not the end of the world and not a particularly horrible thing to experience in reality. I have been offended quite a few times, nothing actually happened. I didn't die or get crippled or get a disease from it. I got over it. Moved on. Meh.

Actually I'm not wholly against PC. Just those when things go too far. And that's happening now. Comedians stifled because someone might get offended. Colleges in the news because they want safe spaces and reject legitimate discussions. Etc etc.
PC is nice in principle, just doesn't always jive well with those (like myself) with a dark sense of humor. Or with Aussies in general due to our rather rough rebellious insulting sense of humor.

Really? I have noticed that most people are now reacting to the hardcore SJW moves. I mean Social Justice is nice in principle but when taken too far is just....awful for everyone.

Well, I've mostly had stuff said to me online over the years. Sometimes I insult the person back, if I feel like it, or I just block them. It's easier to have a "safe space" on the internet than it is in real life. In real life there's just going to be people who don't like you. And that's okay. Sometimes people just don't. And sometimes you don't click etc. I used to be the type of person who had to have everyone like me. If someone didn't like me for some reason (politics, religion, whatever) I felt bad about it and tried to be a people pleaser. Eventually, it gets very draining trying to please everybody. And that's when I realized it and that sometimes you just gotta brush off your shoulders and get going. I just always try to be nice to people but I understand that people don't have to like me. Once I realized that it really took a load off my shoulders and I became more relaxed and even more open to people. If I got the impression someone didn't like me for some reason I was more careful around the person to a point but I didn't treat them any different because they didn't like me.

Comedians aren't stifled. They're not invited. The only people really complaining are older comedians whose comedy is out dated and just not funny anymore because times are changing. People have gay friends. People have friends of all backgrounds. People have friends with different religions than just Christianity. So, people who do these type of offensive jokes aren't going to get laughs out of a lot of youth these days. People also are more understanding of sexist and racist jokes and don't find them funny anymore. Some people still do but a lot of people don't. Colleges don't owe you an invite. If they don't want you on their campus that's their right. Especially if the person doesn't fit with what the school is trying to do with their environment and education. Why do you expect a liberal arts college to invite someone like Ann Coulter to speak? Don't students have the right to protest when they don't want someone on their campus and associated with their campus? What about their free speech?

And these people do so for their own reasons. Honestly none of my concern. I'm not a college student anymore so it's really not my battle. I just recently graduated from college so I understand.



No, they experienced racism. They were denigrated, beaten and/or otherwise abused due to their race. That to me is racism. I don't care what you call it, it's the result of people being racists at the end of the day. For the record I am using this definition of racism.
Racism
ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
  1. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
    "theories of racism"
    • prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

A white person being bashed because they happen to be white is racist. Just like a black person being bashed for being black is racist. It's not dependent of the geographical location. This new definition of racism might work in an academic setting, but in the world of the layman just seems to cause problems, because to many laymen it just looks like a way to excuse being racist against white people.
See, it just creates friction.



Yeah, it's unfortunate.

noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


It's the Wall Street Journal. What do you expect? :rolleyes:

So do you think students should be accepted to have racism at them for trying to get an education?

Of course nobody can read it without signing up to them. So they're crying about being a cry baby but wanting to make me sign up to read their online article about it. Okay. Sorry but I don't subscribe to right wing rags or take their opinions seriously.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
It's the Wall Street Journal. What do you expect? :rolleyes:
I expect them to have less of a SJW perspective.
The best pictures are painted by reading competing sources.
So do you think students should be accepted to have racism at them for trying to get an education?
No.
But it's odd that they practice bigotry as in the process of fighting the same.
Moreover, they further discredit themselves by over-reacting to imagined & de minimis slights.
This masks real problems.
Of course nobody can read it without signing up to them. So they're crying about being a cry baby but wanting to make me sign up to read their online article about it. Okay. Sorry but I don't subscribe to right wing rags or take their opinions seriously.
I never signed up for the WSJ.
I was unaware that they restricted who could read it.
Btw, I always saw them as leaning somewhat to the left.
But I understand that my libertarian perspective is out of whack which the mainstream.
Anyway, it pays to not blithely dismiss others' perspective as "right wing" or "left wing".
 
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