You are a bad Christian

[domsymonds]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

 

[Viker]

Hello. Welcome.

I need some help for I just don't know. What is true biblical Christianity?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What is true biblical Christianity?

Were we sisters separated at birth?

 

[Viker]

Were we sisters separated at birth?

Probably. Well. Not that at birth thing. I'm almost old enough to be your mom. Definitely old enough to be your eccentric aunt. LoL

 

[vulcanlogician]

What is true biblical Christianity?

I'm interested in this question too. Can you give us a nutshell answer, @domsymonds ?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Probably. Well. Not that at birth thing. I'm almost old enough to be your mom. Definitely old enough to be your eccentric aunt. LoL

You're near my sister's age. But you're not inexplicably dumb like she is and I'm always asking if my real sister was switched at birth, lol.

 

[sun rise]

Besides the questions already asked, mine is to ask if it's a matter of what it means to be a "true Christian" in theory and how we deal with our human inability to live up to our ideals.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

We are in the 'Biblical debates' section, which means the material is whatever the books in the bible have in them.

You can be a true Christian and not ever know what a bible is. The bible says so. However you cannot be a true Christian without practicing Christianity. It also says that. I think that is fairly easy to look up in scripture.

So you might become a true Christian by encountering other true Christians and deciding that you want to live like they do. That would be sufficient.

 

[Muffled]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

I believe you can't practice to be a Christian. You either have received Jesus as Lord and Savior or you haven't.

 

[metis]

We are in the 'Biblical debates' section, which means the material is whatever the books in the bible have in them.

You can be a true Christian and not ever know what a bible is. The bible says so. However you cannot be a true Christian without practicing Christianity. It also says that. I think that is fairly easy to look up in scripture.

So you might become a true Christian by encountering other true Christians and deciding that you want to live like they do. That would be sufficient.

Yep, as Jesus said all the was necessary was to follow his Two Commandments: love of God and the love of all. We read much the same in Jesus' Parable of the Sheep & Goats, whereas the latter are condemned because they didn't abide by the latter.

 

[mangalavara]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person.

Could you cite something from the New Testament that Christians should do that you believe is immoral?

 

[Jimmy]

Very easy. I believe in my own form of Jesus. Life isn’t that serious

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

you cannot be a true Christian without practicing Christianity. It also says that. I think that is fairly easy to look up in scripture.

It also says the opposite. In one part, the bible says that man is saved by faith, not works ("For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works." - Ephesians 2:8-9) and in another, the exact opposite ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24). Take your pick.

Also, are you implying that there is another kind of a Christian that isn't a true one? For me, there is only Christian and non-Christian, and there is no behavior test for the former, just that one believes a few key claims about Jesus, and I don't quiz them on that if they call themselves a Christian.

I believe you can't practice to be a Christian.

Different word with the same spelling and pronunciation but different meaning (homonyms). In this context, it's more similar to a medical practice than batting practice.

Just for fun, a review:

• Homonyms - different meanings, spelled and pronounced alike (medical practice, batting practice)
• Heterographs - different meanings, spelled differently, pronounced the same (too, two)
• Heteronyms - different meanings, same spelling, pronounced differently (Gobi desert, desert one's post)
• Homophones - different meanings, same or different spelling, pronounced the same (heterograph or homonym)
• Homographs - different meanings, same spelling, pronounced differently or the same (homonym or heteronym)
• Synonym - same meaning, spelled differently, pronounced differently (flower, bloom [n.])
• Capitonyms - different meanings, same letters but different capitalization, pronounced differently or the same (polish and Polish, turkey and Turkey)

Could you cite something from the New Testament that Christians should do that you believe is immoral?

You didn't ask me, but yes, and why limit it to the New Testament when the Old informs Christianity as well, especially its multiple bigotries (atheophobia, homophobia, misogyny).

But even confining ourselves to the NT, the Jesus has multiple moral failings by humanist (rational ethics) standards:

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[1] Matt 5:28-32 - Jesus says marriage to a divorcee is adultery; and a man who ogles a woman has already committed adultery; and that you must cut off your hand or pluck out your eye if it offends.​

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[2] Matt 6:19-34 - Jesus says don't save money or plan ahead. "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow: for tomorrow shall take thought of the things for itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."​

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[3] Matt 8:32 - Having no regard for private property, Jesus destroys a herd of someone else's pigs.​

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[4] Matt 10:34 - Jesus says he brings not peace on earth but "a sword": "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."​

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[5] Jesus divides families: Matthew 10:35-37 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall][be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.​

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[6] Matt 19:12 - Jesus says the best way for a man to be sure of getting into heaven is to have himself castrated.​

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[7] Mark 11:13 - Jesus destroys a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season.​

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[8] Mark 14:4-7 - Jesus says it is more important to anoint him with precious ointment than to give to the poor, who will always be here.(Why not just get rid of poverty?)​

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[9] Christ categorically says in Mark 16:16 that he who believes and is baptized, shall be saved, while he who does not believe (in Christ and Christianity) shall be damned. That's pretty narcissistic.​

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[10] Mark 16:18 - Jesus says anyone who believes in him can play with venomous snakes or drink poison without harm.(This act has been often tried, with rather unsatisfactory results.)​

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[11] Luke 12:47-48 - Jesus fails to condemn whipping slaves.​

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[12] Luke 14:26 - Jesus says no man can be his disciple unless he hates his parents, siblings, wife, children, and himself as well: "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."​

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[13] Luke 19:27 - In telling a parable, Jesus insinuates that anyone who denies his rulership must be killed. "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me."​

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[14] Luke 22:36 - Jesus wants us to have swords, too. He says to sell your clothes if necessary to buy one: "and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."-​

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[15] John 15:6 - Jesus says anyone who doesn't believe in him is fit to be burned.​

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[16] 2 John 1:10-11 - A Christian is forbidden to offer hospitality to a non-Christian, not even to wish him "Godspeed" on parting.​

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[17] James 4:4 - Christians are not to be friendly with the world: "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."​

 

[Brickjectivity]

It also says the opposite. In one part, the bible says that man is saved by faith, not works ("For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works." - Ephesians 2:8-9) and in another, the exact opposite ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24). Take your pick.

Also, are you implying that there is another kind of a Christian that isn't a true one? For me, there is only Christian and non-Christian, and there is no behavior test for the former, just that one believes a few key claims about Jesus, and I don't quiz them on that if they call themselves a Christian.

Martin Luther's bizarre interpretations (to which you refer) can be written off. Whatever he says is going to be charged with anger and a flippant disregard for the intent of a scripture. His doctorate is legitimate, however he abuses it. This is the man who causes people to be tortured for disagreeing with himself, their testicles pulled off with red hot steel, and he prefers Jews to be dead. He's no standard for scripture interpretation. Some people just have no regard for others, and he's one of them.

Using "Saved by 'Faith' not b 'Works'" he managed to take advantage of a groundwell of disapproval with the church of his day, for his own gain. He translated the scripture a particular way for the lay people to make them believe he was a prophet, but he was no prophet. The excesses and failures of the church were real, but he simply used this for himself to make himself a church that followed himself. His misinterpretation of the verse was whatever he found convenient for his purposes. It was a way to carve out a church for his own name, and I am not saying that as some catholic guy. I'm just stating the obvious. I've never been catholic, and I have no family in that institution. He was a bad dude.

That being said I realize that to this point I have not interpreted this verse for you. I merely state that I disagree with Luther. I do not believe that "The bible says the opposite," not in Ephesians even. I can see how easy it is for Luther to translate it so that it leans this way, but he's not to be trusted.

Also, are you implying that there is another kind of a Christian that isn't a true one? For me, there is only Christian and non-Christian, and there is no behavior test for the former, just that one believes a few key claims about Jesus, and I don't quiz them on that if they call themselves a Christian.

Now I will explain the verse, and now I will answer. To begin with your focus upon believing "Key claims" seems irrelevant to being a Christian. They are not relevant in my opinion and based upon my understanding of the standard canon. The verse is about faithfulness. It is contrasting works and faithfulness, but Luther misconstrues this to manipulate it into something convenient for his purposes.

I understand that large numbers of people are under sway of Luther.

As for whether there are Christians that are not true Christians, there is only the test of spiritual characteristics. These are what matter, and so I partially agree with you that there is not a specific test. There is personal growth as people improve, but there are also people who never improve. And there are people like Martin Luther: murderous and self seeking individuals that boast about how spiritual they are when they actually are more like noxious pests. Now in Luther's case perhaps he had a good side, but he was somehow quite murderous and conniving as well. I cannot count him as a peaceful man nor as any sort of spiritual person.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Martin Luther's bizarre interpretations (to which you refer) can be written off. Whatever he says is going to be charged with anger and a flippant disregard for the intent of a scripture. His doctorate is legitimate, however he abuses it. This is the man who causes people to be tortured for disagreeing with himself, their testicles pulled off with red hot steel, and he prefers Jews to be dead. He's no standard for scripture interpretation. Some people just have no regard for others, and he's one of them. Using "Saved by 'Faith' not b 'Works'" he managed to take advantage of a groundwell of disapproval with the church of his day, for his own gain.

I'm not sure why you've introduced Luther. I cited scripture: Ephesians 2:8 - Compare Bible Verse Translations

Now I will explain the verse, and now I will answer. To begin with your focus upon believing "Key claims" seems irrelevant to being a Christian.

Now you're giving me YOUR definition. You're a Christian, right? Your definition will be theological, but that's not useful to me, since I don't believe the Christian god exists.

How many Christians are there in the world? If you Google it, you find, "As of the year 2023, Christianity had approximately 2.6 billion adherents and is the largest-religion by population respectively." What do you suppose their criteria was for being a Christian was? I'm assuming it was assorted surveys and censuses extrapolated, and that one was counted as a Christian for ticking that box. That's a little looser than my definition, but a similar number.

As for whether there are Christians that are not true Christians, there is only the test of spiritual characteristics. These are what matter, and so I partially agree with you that there is not a specific test.

What I wanted to know was whether there are people you call Christian but not true Christians. I don't make any such distinction. All 2.6 billion of those people are Christians, because except for people who are lying about their beliefs, they're all Christians, even the ones who give the religion a bad reputation. I also wouldn't accept Ford calling its lemons not true Fords just because they didn't run well. They're Fords, too. I also have no behavioral tests for them. If Ford calls them Fords when they roll off the assembly, that's what they are even if they never start.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Very easy. I believe in my own form of Jesus. Life isn’t that serious

Exactly.

Its your own personal Jesus. Nobody else's.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not sure why you've introduced Luther. I cited scripture: Ephesians 2:8 - Compare Bible Verse Translations

You cited Luther's translation, and you endorsed his interpretation, too. Then you claimed it was simply reading the bible, but I think this was not how the bible was read before Luther. It is divisive and purposely so intended by him for that purpose: a purpose which I will not further.

Now you're giving me YOUR definition. You're a Christian, right? Your definition will be theological, but that's not useful to me, since I don't believe the Christian god exists.

Usefulness for your purposes is unfortunately not something I can guarantee. I don't see a biblical problem with your non-belief, and that is firmly based in my familiarity with this canon. It is a familiarity that we do not share.

How many Christians are there in the world? If you Google it, you find, "As of the year 2023, Christianity had approximately 2.6 billion adherents and is the largest-religion by population respectively." What do you suppose their criteria was for being a Christian was? I'm assuming it was assorted surveys and censuses extrapolated, and that one was counted as a Christian for ticking that box. That's a little looser than my definition, but a similar number.

I recall that you kindly quoted my post inquiring about my opinion. I am honored that you are intelligently conversing with me; but statistical opinions about Christian scriptures are not compelling. Going to church is religious but does not prepare one for biblical debates. Not at all. Lots of Christians in the world might agree with you or might think your non-belief is a problem, but this is biblical debates not debate about the statistical opinions of people who go to church a lot, who read the same pamphlets. Its a different arena. If its pamphlets and prayer books you want then I do not have as strong a familiarity.
.

What I wanted to know was whether there are people you call Christian but not true Christians. I don't make any such distinction. All 2.6 billion of those people are Christians, because except for people who are lying about their beliefs, they're all Christians, even the ones who give the religion a bad reputation. I also wouldn't accept Ford calling its lemons not true Fords just because they didn't run well. They're Fords, too. I also have no behavioral tests for them. If Ford calls them Fords when they roll off the assembly, that's what they are even if they never start.

I make a distinction and have explained it. I am sorry it is not good for your purposes.

 

[Elihoenai]

I left Christianity (partly) because I came to the conclusion that I couldn't practice the true Christianity of the Bible and remain a moral person. If you don't practice true biblical Christianity, how can you call yourself a Christian?

Are you saying that True Christianity is Immoral? Do you consider the Ten Commandments Moral?

 

[Elihoenai]

Hello. Welcome.

I need some help for I just don't know. What is true biblical Christianity?

1 Corinthians 3:3-4

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?


An Identifying Characteristic of True Christianity is the Unification of the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament/Greek Scriptures.

Traditional False Christianity Divides Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament/Greek Scriptures in a Dichotomy. This Dichotomy is Ordained by Elohim/God and is for Members of Elohim's/God's Temporal Universal Roman Catholic Church. Temporal Christianity is Bad Christianity that produces Bad Christians.

 

[Jimmy]

Are you saying that True Christianity is Immoral? Do you consider the Ten Commandments Moral?

I think he’s talkin bout the Christian belief that Homosexuality is a sin. He doesn’t realize that one can believe that and still have respect for Gay people. A lot of people mix that up imo