You don't have a monopoly on truth.

[InChrist]

Again, you are using the Bible as a way to claim you have a monopoly to truth. You are claiming the Bible has a monopoly on truth, right?

I don’t think I have a monopoly on truth. I do think God has a monopoly on truth which He chose to reveal through the Bible and in the Person of Jesus Christ. Anyone can and many have believed biblical truth.

 

[firedragon]

Do you accept the fact that you do not have a monopoly on truth?

Do you accept the truth that your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, could be wrong?

In Christian church, I was taught that "lack of faith" aka a healthy dose of skepticism, was absolutely terrible and you needed to fix it. You were to have unshakable faith, and know that you have a monopoly on truth, as a Bible wielding Christian.

Most Christians I know in my life believe they have a monopoly on truth. I wonder if it is the same for the folk on this site, regardless of religion.

Only agnostics acknowledge the fact that they don't have the facts. Am I wrong?

Tell me something.

Before people discovered the depth of the Mariana Trench, which one was the deepest trench on earth?

 

[Kenny]

Do you accept the fact that you do not have a monopoly on truth?

Truth is truth no matter who declares it.

Do you accept the truth that your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, could be wrong?

If it is truth… how can it be wrong? If what one hold is grey, then I am up for being wrong.

In Christian church, I was taught that "lack of faith" aka a healthy dose of skepticism, was absolutely terrible and you needed to fix it. You were to have unshakable faith, and know that you have a monopoly on truth, as a Bible wielding Christian.

I think this is too broad of a statement lacking context (at this point). Questions don’t bother God nor does truth tremble at questions.

Most Christians I know in my life believe they have a monopoly on truth. I wonder if it is the same for the folk on this site, regardless of religion.

No… as I said before, truth is truth no matter who is speaking it even if it is from another relgion.

Only agnostics acknowledge the fact that they don't have the facts. Am I wrong?

Don’t know… I am not an agnostic.

 

[an anarchist]

I don’t think I have a monopoly on truth. I do think God has a monopoly on truth which He chose to reveal through the Bible and in the Person of Jesus Christ. Anyone can and many have believed biblical truth.

You believe that your God has a monopoly on truth... the God you believe in has a monopoly on truth. So in effect you believe you have a monopoly on truth, as in the Bible is for sure right.

What do you not understand?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This applies to pretty much everything. Do you know any two people who think exactly alike?

I meant a situation where two people believe in opposite things but both can sustain the belief that they're right over the long term.

That begs the question is what reality is.

For the purposes of this thread, let's try the Philip K. Dick approach:

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

If you are referring to the physical reality you would be right, but believers believe there is also a spiritual reality and God is not irrelevant to spiritual reality.

I'm talking about our experiences.

If I think that I can walk on water, I will be shown wrong when I try to walk on water. If I think I have a billion dollars in my chequing account, I will be shown wrong when I see my balance at the bank machine.

What do we have for God?

I can see why theists can maintain their belief in a godless universe: God-concepts are generally engineered with built-in excuses for why God would act as if he doesn't exist: "God works in mysterious ways;" "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'no' or 'not yet';" "God helps those who help themselves;" etc.

How do you think an atheist could maintain their non-belief in a universe with God? I don't think they could... which just reinforces the case for why this universe isn't a universe with God.

I agree that whether God exists or not is irreconcilable since God can never be proven to exist, but that does not mean God is irrelevant.
God does not need to be proven to exist in order to be relevant.

I'm saying that God is irrelevant to everything we experience. That's the conclusion to draw from seeing that atheists can live their whole lives without every having their expectations violated.

I think many other theists realize this conclusion and this is why they argue that atheists really do believe deep down. That's their way of resolving what would otherwise be a threat to their own beliefs.

 

[InChrist]

Please step through your thinking there. How could someone get from "the prophecy in this book is correct" to "therefore God alone knows the future."

Certainly, finite humans who were instrumental in writing the biblical prophecies didn’t know future events. It was only Gos who is outside of human time, who knew future events which would take place and who inspired the writers to include these in the texts.

... because it's impossible for a book with at least one correct thing in it to contain any incorrect things as long as the correct thing is impressive enough?



But since - AFAICT - none of the Bible's prophecies have been shown to be fulfilled, all of that's kind of useless, isn't it?

And considering that the Bible has been compiled over time by a community with continuity, incorporating or rejecting individual books based on whether they fit their doctrinal views, I don't find any internal consistency between books of the Bible to be surprising at all.

As I said previously, the numerous writers of the biblical scriptures did not know each other and many lived in different areas and times in history. I think the internal consistency is obviously clear, especially about the nation of Israel and the Savior of the world.


“Unique among all books ever written, the Bible accurately foretells specific events-in detail-many years, sometimes centuries, before they occur. Approximately 2,500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2,000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.

(The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2,000 zeros written after it)!”
Hugh Ross

 

[InChrist]

You believe that your God has a monopoly on truth... the God you believe in has a monopoly on truth. So in effect you believe you have a monopoly on truth, as in the Bible is for sure right.

What do you not understand?

If millions and millions of people throughout history have believed the truth of the Bible, besides me, then obviously I don’t have a monopoly on truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I meant a situation where two people believe in opposite things but both can sustain the belief that they're right over the long term.

Beliefs are not subject to being right. Only facts are subject to being right.

For the purposes of this thread, let's try the Philip K. Dick approach:

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

I fully agree. Just because people stop believing in spiritual reality that does not make it go away.

I'm talking about our experiences.

If I think that I can walk on water, I will be shown wrong when I try to walk on water. If I think I have a billion dollars in my chequing account, I will be shown wrong when I see my balance at the bank machine.

Reality is more than our experiences.

What do we have for God?

I can see why theists can maintain their belief in a godless universe: God-concepts are generally engineered with built-in excuses for why God would act as if he doesn't exist: "God works in mysterious ways;" "God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is 'no' or 'not yet';" "God helps those who help themselves;" etc.

How do you think an atheist could maintain their non-belief in a universe with God? I don't think they could... which just reinforces the case for why this universe isn't a universe with God.

When atheists say that God acts as if he doesn't exist they are assuming that God would be doing x, y, and z if God existed, but there is no reason to think that.

I'm saying that God is irrelevant to everything we experience. That's the conclusion to draw from seeing that atheists can live their whole lives without every having their expectations violated.

I think many other theists realize this conclusion and this is why they argue that atheists really do believe deep down. That's their way of resolving what would otherwise be a threat to their own beliefs.

If you are 'expecting' God to do something then God is irrelevant because the only thing that God ever does 'that we can know about' is to send messengers.

 

[an anarchist]

If millions and millions of people throughout history have believed the truth of the Bible, besides me, then obviously I don’t have a monopoly on truth.

You are misunderstanding the OP and what I've been telling you. Fundamentally misunderstanding it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Beliefs are not subject to being right. Only facts are subject to being right.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

I fully agree. Just because people stop believing in spiritual reality that does not make it go away.

Reality is more than our experiences.

Our experiences are the things that challenge our understandings of reality.

If what you're calling "spiritual reality" never gets tested by experience, then it's indistinguishable from made-up nonsense.

When atheists say that God acts as if he doesn't exist they are assuming that God would be doing x, y, and z if God existed, but there is no reason to think that.

Depends on the god-concept. Plenty of them imply predictions of things we ought to see if the god is real.

OTOH, there are also others like the one you're describing: so vague and amorphous that they don't predict anything. These are the ones I was talking about earlier: engineered to be unfalsifiable. I don't think that these ones warrant being taken seriously.

If you are 'expecting' God to do something then God is irrelevant because the only thing that God ever does 'that we can know about' is to send messengers.

But your "messengers" are also something that can be completely reconciled with God not existing, so they don't create a problem for a godless worldview.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

You said: I meant a situation where two people believe in opposite things but both can sustain the belief that they're right over the long term.
Since beliefs cannot be proven to be right, beliefs are not subject to being right.

Our experiences are the things that challenge our understandings of reality.

If what you're calling "spiritual reality" never gets tested by experience, then it's indistinguishable from made-up nonsense.

"Spiritual reality" can experienced and tested by experience, and then it's distinguishable from made-up nonsense.

Depends on the god-concept. Plenty of them imply predictions of things we ought to see if the god is real.

Do you mean the things that certain believers say God does, like answering prayers?
Even if we said a prayer and we thought God answered our prayer, how would we know it was God and not just a coincidence?

OTOH, there are also others like the one you're describing: so vague and amorphous that they don't predict anything. These are the ones I was talking about earlier: engineered to be unfalsifiable. I don't think that these ones warrant being taken seriously.

I am not sure what you mean when you say these gods don't predict anything.

But your "messengers" are also something that can be completely reconciled with God not existing, so they don't create a problem for a godless worldview.

If you don't believe they are messengers from God of course can be reconciled with God not existing.
I mean you are free to write them all off as men who made false claims if you want to.

 

[blü 2]

Do you accept the fact that you do not have a monopoly on truth?

I define 'truth' as a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it accurately reflects / corresponds with objective reality.

And since I don't have a monopoly on statements, i don't have a monopoly on 'truth'.

Do you accept the truth that your religious beliefs, or lack thereof, could be wrong?

If by 'religious beliefs' you mean supernatural beliefs, I find no evidence for the supernatural as an aspect of the world external to me, and I accordingly conclude there is none. Such a conclusion, for me, is particularly strong, but there are no absolutes.

Only agnostics acknowledge the fact that they don't have the facts. Am I wrong?

No one has "all the facts". And I'm an igtheist, not an agnostic.

 

[InChrist]

I beg to differ with you. The Writings of Baha'u'llah have a verifiable date of origin and the history of the Baha'i Faith offers a documented prophetic fulfillment of the biblical scriptures that refer to the return of Christ.

Just a few of the many prophecies and how they were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are depicted in the following 10 minute video.

I don’t see any substantive, factual information at all in the video about prophecies fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don’t see any substantive, factual information at all in the video about prophecies fulfilled by Baha’u’llah.

The substantive, factual information is what Baha'u'llah actually said and did that fulfilled those prophecies.
What Baha'u'llah said and did can be verified by reading His Writings and reading about the history of the Baha'i Faith.

I suggest that you watch the video again keeping on mind what I am going to say below.

Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

The coming of Baha'u'llah also fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament for the coming of the messiah in the latter days.

For example, Baha'u'llah came to all the places that the prophets in the Old Testament had prophesied, and He was exiled and banished to the places they prophesied.

In addition, the geography of that area now reflects what was prophesied in Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

 

[InChrist]

The substantive, factual information is what Baha'u'llah actually said and did that fulfilled those prophecies.
What Baha'u'llah said and did can be verified by reading His Writings and reading about the history of the Baha'i Faith.

I suggest that you watch the video again keeping on mind what I am going to say below.

Baha'u'llah did everything that Jesus said that the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

The coming of Baha'u'llah also fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament for the coming of the messiah in the latter days.

For example, Baha'u'llah came to all the places that the prophets in the Old Testament had prophesied, and He was exiled and banished to the places they prophesied.

In addition, the geography of that area now reflects what was prophesied in Isaiah 35.

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)
35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

The geography of the area in the land of Israel reflects what is spoken about in Isaiah 35 because that’s what God said would occur. I don’t see any connection to Baha’u’llah or Baha’i teaching. It’s just what’s in the biblical scriptures.

Are you saying that Baha’u’llah is the Messiah? That’s an astonishing belief, if so.
Many OT scriptures reveal that the Messiah brings peace to this war torn earth. I don’t see that at all and from the looks of things we may be on the brink of WWIII at any moment.

 

[Trailblazer]

The geography of the area in the land of Israel reflects what is spoken about in Isaiah 35 because that’s what God said would occur. I don’t see any connection to Baha’u’llah or Baha’i teaching. It’s just what’s in the biblical scriptures.

Right, and because that is what God said would occur, and it has occurred, that is a fulfillment of those Bible prophecies.
The connection to the Baha'i Faith is that those prophecies were fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah.

Are you saying that Baha’u’llah is the Messiah? That’s an astonishing belief, if so.

I am saying that Baha'u'llah was the Messiah that was prophesied in the Old Testament to come in the latter days.
Jesus was also a Messiah, but he was never slated by God to be the Messiah of the latter days.

Many OT scriptures reveal that the Messiah brings peace to this war torn earth. I don’t see that at all and from the looks of things we may be on the brink of WWIII at any moment.

Those OT scriptures do not say when that peace will come. Presumably it will come during the messianic age, which will last about 1000 years from the time that the Messiah appears.

We could have had peace a long time ago if the rulers and kings had recognized Baha'u'llah and heeded His counsels, but since they did not peace will be forestalled.

"O ye rulers of the earth! Wherefore have ye clouded the radiance of the Sun, and caused it to cease from shining? Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth. He, verily, doth what He willeth.

O kings of the earth! We see you increasing every year your expenditures, and laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is wholly and grossly unjust. Fear the sighs and tears of this wronged One, and lay not excessive burdens on your peoples. Do not rob them to rear palaces for yourselves; nay rather choose for them that which ye choose for yourselves. Thus We unfold to your eyes that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!

Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.

O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.

Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 253-254

 

[Muffled]

Sadly, it has been mine. I don't know any Christians who don't believe that Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

I believe Jesus is the Way just as He said The question is what destination does that way represent? You have to look at the context.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that the Spirit of truth has come and He guided us into all truth.
He did not speak on His own authority, but spoke whatever He heard through the Holy Spirit, and he told us of things to come.

I believe that the Spirit of truth was Baha'u'llah to whom God sent the Holy Spirit.

I believe as usual your beliefs lack rationaility. Do you ealy think I have the B man in me? I don't believe I do but I do believe I have Jesus in me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe Jesus is the Way just as He said The question is what destination does that way represent? You have to look at the context.

I believe that Jesus is a Way, but not the Only Way, to God. Such a belief is completely illogical.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe as usual your beliefs lack rationaility. Do you ealy think I have the B man in me?

I did not say that Baha'u'llah is living inside of you.
Baha'u'llah was not the Holy Spirit...
The Spirit of truth is a 'title' for Baha'u'llah, to whom God sent the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe I do but I do believe I have Jesus in me.

How do you believe that you have Jesus in you? How does a man live inside your body?