You don't show respect for my religion!

[waitasec]

I don't think it's a matter of showing respect for religions or for beliefs but for the people who belong to those religions and adhere to the beliefs they teach. To me, that's as simple as not ridiculing them or misrepresenting what they teach. I don't understand what's so difficult about that concept.

so during the sermons whoever is on the pulpit doesn't use 'the ways of the world' as an example to avoid in order for one to attain a godly virtuous life ...that would be including other religions too

 

[Scots99]

So we must show equal respect to the belief that there are fairies and santa?

Haha, well i think it is funny that you say that. Lets have some logic here. Santa is not a religion...sure you can believe in Santa, but in my mind religion is something that involves worship and spiritual searching or evaluation. I have never meant someone who believes in Santa as a religion, but if I did I would respect that it means something to them, and I won't throw judgment on them. I would rather God do that. The same applies to fairies. Again I've never met someone who sees them as a religion, but I'm sure they are out there. As for that situation I again don't find myself worthy enough to throw judgment on that individual for their religious belief. I'll respect what it means to them and move on.

 

[Katzpur]

so during the sermons whoever is on the pulpit doesn't use 'the ways of the world' as an example to avoid in order for one to attain a godly virtuous life ...that would be including other religions too

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at. When I hear someone in church say to avoid "the ways of the world," I don't see it as having anything at all to do with other religions.

 

[Katzpur]

Would it be disrespectful to tell people to "Have a secular day"?

It doesn't seem like theists believe that telling me "Have a blessed day" seems disrepectful to them.

Talk about touchy! Get over it, man. Stop taking offense when none is meant, and appreciate the sentiment that is intended.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Talk about touchy! Get over it, man. Stop taking offense when none is meant, and appreciate the sentiment that is intended.

Heh... at work, I had to have some dealings with the office of my local MP last December.

I called up the office and spoke to one of his staff members. It was a pleasant enough conversation, but completely business - religion didn't come up at all (and we had never spoken before that call). Then, as we're saying our goodbyes, she says "Merry Christmas. NOT HAPPY HOLIDAYS, MERRY CHRISTMAS!" and hangs up.

It was one of the more puzzling moments in my working life. I don't think the sentiment she expressed was so much that she actually hoped I would have a good time over Christmas, but that she wants public life to be infused with religion.

Of course, I wouldn't say I was offended. The incident was too bizarre for me to really take offense to it.

 

[waitasec]

it's become common place, intertwined in our culture.
the thing is, more and more atheists are coming out of the woodworks/closet and what was taken for granted is being challenged...
'the times they are a changin'

 

[waitasec]

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at. When I hear someone in church say to avoid "the ways of the world," I don't see it as having anything at all to do with other religions.

katzpur, what are the ways of the world?

 

[Katzpur]

Heh... at work, I had to have some dealings with the office of my local MP last December.

I called up the office and spoke to one of his staff members. It was a pleasant enough conversation, but completely business - religion didn't come up at all (and we had never spoken before that call). Then, as we're saying our goodbyes, she says "Merry Christmas. NOT HAPPY HOLIDAYS, MERRY CHRISTMAS!" and hangs up.

It was one of the more puzzling moments in my working life. I don't think the sentiment she expressed was so much that she actually hoped I would have a good time over Christmas, but that she wants public life to be infused with religion.

Of course, I wouldn't say I was offended. The incident was too bizarre for me to really take offense to it.

Seriously? You really don't think she was just wishing you a good holiday, however secularly you may celebrate it. I wouldn't think twice about wishing someone a Merry Christmas. Maybe I need to rethink that.

 

[Katzpur]

katzpur, what are the ways of the world?

Get ahead at any cost. The end justifies the means. Rules are meant to be broken. Everybody else is doing it. If it feels good, it's okay. That's all it means to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Seriously? You really don't think she was just wishing you a good holiday, however secularly you may celebrate it. I wouldn't think twice about wishing someone a Merry Christmas. Maybe I need to rethink that.

Her tone probably didn't come across properly in me typing it out. No, I don't think she was just wishing me a good holiday - people tend not to snarl when they express nice feelings. I think she really was trying to make some sort of point about religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

BTW - theists: have you given my post here any thought? What standard of behaviour would you consider to be respectful toward your religion?

Or, to put it another way, if a person wanted to avoid making you feel like your religion is being disrespected, what would they have to avoid doing?

 

[Katzpur]

BTW - theists: have you given my post here any thought? What standard of behaviour would you consider to be respectful toward your religion?

Or, to put it another way, if a person wanted to avoid making you feel like your religion is being disrespected, what would they have to avoid doing?

They would have to avoid intentionally misrepresenting my beliefs, for one thing. This is done by exaggeration, parodying, and taking statements of LDS leaders out of context. I would also appreciate it if people whose knowledge about Mormon doctrine would acknowledge the fact that I know a hell of a lot more about the teachings of my Church than they do. I could probably give you well over a dozen examples of what I mean.

 

[Katzpur]

Her tone probably didn't come across properly in me typing it out. No, I don't think she was just wishing me a good holiday - people tend not to snarl when they express nice feelings. I think she really was trying to make some sort of point about religion.

Okay... well, you heard her tone. I didn't. I'll take your word for it.

 

[Badran]

BTW - theists: have you given my post here any thought? What standard of behaviour would you consider to be respectful toward your religion?

Or, to put it another way, if a person wanted to avoid making you feel like your religion is being disrespected, what would they have to avoid doing?

When i read your post i was surprised to see that i had no specific answer beyond just generally being courteous and not being too pushy on trying to prove/disprove anything.

Another thing i thought about now, that usually provokes me, is if i can tell by the other person's tone and choice of words etc.. that they think lower of my intelligence because of my choice in what position to hold in regards to religion, and my particular choice in religion. And its usually accompanied by them thinking highly of themselves. That actually makes me pretty angry.

Mostly because that person usually haven't gave my specific choice a serious consideration to start with, or approached it as i did, or anyway near. Even if he did study it. Thus his confident dismissal of it as a poor choice in whatever form really gets on my nerves, when he shows it that is. Obviously we all dismiss certain choices, but i don't show my disrespect easily for whatever choice. Disagreement however is more than okay.

Note that in all of the above i said "mostly" and "usually" and things like that, not always.

So basically, a little courtesy and not getting too confident and pushy when discussing the topic will do for me.

 

[waitasec]

Get ahead at any cost. The end justifies the means. Rules are meant to be broken. Everybody else is doing it. If it feels good, it's okay. That's all it means to me.

so when 'the end justifies the means' mentality is seen as worldly,
no one of faith said this in regards to the 9/11 hijackers who committed that act in the name of their religion?
well some oral roberts students did,,,Oral Roberts University reportedly "disrupted" services at a mosque in the city of Tulsa near the University of Tulsa. Mujeeb Cheema, the chairman of the Islamic Society of Tulsa at that time, told The New York Times, "Some 20 Oral Roberts students put their hands on the exterior doors and walls of the mosque and prayed for the conversion of the Muslims."
Oral Roberts University - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or the investigation which involved the misuse of school funds that supported an 'extravagant lifestyle: a private jet often used for personal travel, including a senior trip to Orlando for one of the Roberts girls; shopping binges by Roberts's wife, Lindsay, that totaled tens of thousands of dollars; 11 renovations in 14 years to the Roberts home on campus, and a stable of horses for the kids. '
Oral Roberts Shaken by Scandal - Newsweek

doesn't 'Get ahead at any cost' come to mind from anyone who is an observer of the entire debacle

or what about ted haggard with 'if it feels good, it's okay'?


would you agree that people are capable of doing both good and bad things?
good deeds are not exclusively religious deeds as are
bad deeds not exclusively worldly...it's all intertwined...
there are plenty of things in the world that separate...race, sex, nationality...and the most dangerous, religion because it is justified by god...
immho....

 

[Katzpur]

would you agree that people are capable of doing both good and bad things?

Yes, I would.

good deeds are not exclusively religious deeds as are
bad deeds not exclusively worldly...it's all intertwined...

I would agree.

there are plenty of things in the world that separate...race, sex, nationality...and the most dangerous, religion because it is justified by god...
immho....

I disagree because I don't believe that evil is ever justified by God. I believe that there are fanatics within every religion and fanatics with no religious beliefs at all. Personally, I believe my religious beliefs to have had a more positive effect on my life than not. Perhaps you feel otherwise.

 

[waitasec]

I disagree because I don't believe that evil is ever justified by God.

however, evil is done in the name of god...no matter what the intention is.

I believe that there are fanatics within every religion and fanatics with no religious beliefs at all.

of course.

Personally, I believe my religious beliefs to have had a more positive effect on my life than not.

but of course, people do take up religion to make their lives worse...

Perhaps you feel otherwise.

i feel it's another justification...for good or bad
only people who value their integrity and self respect (religious and non religious) are the ones who make a positive impact...

 

[Katzpur]

however, evil is done in the name of god...no matter what the intention is.

Yes, and evil is done by people who are determined that no one have the right to exercise a belief in God. Either way, it's sad.

but of course, people do take up religion to make their lives worse...

Why would anybody do something to make their lives worse? I don't follow your reasoning.

i feel it's another justification...for good or bad

I'm sure it is for some people. For me, my religious beliefs could not possibly justify evil. They could not possibly justify intolerance or inequity. Of course I do occasionally disagree with my Church's leadership on matters of policy (i.e. Blacks and the priesthood, Prop 8, etc.), but I feel completely justified in doing so. My religion does have a much more positive influence on me than a negative one. I suspect this is something that simply cannot be understood by someone who doesn't believe in God at all. Those who do believe in God generally associate themselves with a religion because it helps them to understand their relationship to Him. It's when they stop using their own common sense to filter out the useless information from the useful information that their perceptions begin to get skewed.

only people who value their integrity and self respect (religious and non religious) are the ones who make a positive impact...

Well, I'm glad to see that you included the religious in that group. Personally, I don't believe there is any quality we can have that is greater than integrity.

 

[darkendless]

I disagree because I don't believe that evil is ever justified by God. I believe that there are fanatics within every religion and fanatics with no religious beliefs at all. Personally, I believe my religious beliefs to have had a more positive effect on my life than not. Perhaps you feel otherwise.

Religions are often measured by those that shine negatively. Negativity is interesting, positivity usually isn't.

 

[waitasec]

Why would anybody do something to make their lives worse? I don't follow your reasoning.

:biglaugh:
that was a really bad typo...
i meant to say people don't take up religion to make their lives worse

I'm sure it is for some people. For me, my religious beliefs could not possibly justify evil. They could not possibly justify intolerance or inequity.

because you are a thinking and an educated person. uneducated people in 3rd world countries, or even uneducated people period, them i'm not so sure about...

Of course I do occasionally disagree with my Church's leadership on matters of policy (i.e. Blacks and the priesthood, Prop 8, etc.), but I feel completely justified in doing so. My religion does have a much more positive influence on me than a negative one. I suspect this is something that simply cannot be understood by someone who doesn't believe in God at all.

no, i get it. it's just when people appoint themselves as morally superior and dictate what is moral to others that i have a problem with.
mother theresa for example, perpetuating misery because she believed birth control was a sin...and also pushed the idea that suffering was a gift from god...

Those who do believe in God generally associate themselves with a religion because it helps them to understand their relationship to Him.

now that is something i cannot understand.

It's when they stop using their own common sense to filter out the useless information from the useful information that their perceptions begin to get skewed.

agreed...

Well, I'm glad to see that you included the religious in that group. Personally, I don't believe there is any quality we can have that is greater than integrity.