You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[MSizer]

Believing in God or NOT believing in God is an act of Free Will

Is this enough or shall I keep rambling on?

No don't bother, because you're absolutely wrong. Conviction is an unconcious function of the mind. Nobody chooses to believe or not to believe anything - it's done unconciously.

I challenge you to choose to believe that you are the pope. Let me know when you accomplish it.

 

[CarlinKnew]

I'm haunted by David Hume's observation about how it is impossible to have free will, since if we did, we'd necessarily have to spontaneously generate thoughts completely unrelated (without cause) to previous events. Therefore he concluded that free will is impossible, as no order could exist if free will existed.

Yes, and almost everyone is oblivious of this observation and its consequences. To name one, every concept of divine punishment or reward is utterly illogical.

 

[Greatest I am]

HH, I would have to say that you have the best understanding of free will in this thread.
Free Will has nothing to do with rules or physics
Free Will has nothing to do with man's laws or God's laws
Remember, God does not mess with Free Will, wether you believe in Him or not.
?

If a believer then they see God messing with our free will whenever He acts.

Though shall not eat of it is screwing with free will.
A & E were not free to stay in the Garden.
Those of Sodom had their freedom squashed.
Those of Noah's flood willed to live but God put a sop to those silly desires.

God the Indian giver.:rainbow1:

Regards
DL

 

[MSizer]

Yes, and almost everyone is oblivious of this observation and its consequences. To name one, every concept of divine punishment or reward is utterly illogical.

Yes I know, and when you point it out to them, they still don't even understand. I don't know why, but it's frustrating.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

If a believer then they see God messing with our free will whenever He acts.

Though shall not eat of it is screwing with free will.
A & E were not free to stay in the Garden.
Those of Sodom had their freedom squashed.
Those of Noah's flood willed to live but God put a sop to those silly desires.

God the Indian giver.:rainbow1:

Regards
DL

1. Who would want to leave the garden?
2. Sodom was a city was filled with a city of abomination, the people of the city wanted to have sex with the angels that visted Lot.
3. It took Noah like 120 years to build the ark the people had alot of chances to join Noah, but they didn't and so they died.

But thats just my two cents.

 

[Greatest I am]

1. Who would want to leave the garden?
2. Sodom was a city was filled with a city of abomination, the people of the city wanted to have sex with the angels that visted Lot.
3. It took Noah like 120 years to build the ark the people had alot of chances to join Noah, but they didn't and so they died.

But thats just my two cents.

They did not just die.

Genocide is murder.

As to lot and the gang, only homophobes like the notion of God killing Gays by the score.

Check you hate level. it is not becoming.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Is God and His works perfect.
The way many Christian see God is to see Him screwing up heaven with evil.
Strike one.
They then see God screwing up man's beginning in Eden.
Strike two.
They then see God cleaning house in Noah's day with Genocide and starting over.
Strike three.
They now wait for His return at end time to clean house yet again.
Strike four.
Strike four?
God plays by His own rules I guess.
You and I both know that this view must be false if God‘s works are as perfect as scripture indicates.
To my way of thinking, God gets things right the first time and every time.
This is why He has not and will not return. His perfect systems are here today the same way that they were here in the beginning. He judged Eden as good.
It is just to us to see it. I do. Even with sin and evil and woes, all is perfect and humming along exactly as God wants it to. I call it perfection in evolution.
Did your version of God get it right or does He need to return to fix things.
Regards
DL

 

[MSizer]

Oh no Greatest, don't you know, God's work is perfect, we're not allowed to evaluate that, because it's beyond our comprehension. He loves us, and wants us to return to Him, but rather than just invite us into the garden directly, he made us capable of failure and gave us this test life first during which we need to earn our way back to him. The cards are stacked against us, but we have no right to complain, because that would be so presumptuous of us to question His perfect plan. Besides, we're fallable you know, so we meek sheep must bow and obey in hopes of salvation some day. Ugh, it's so ridiculous.

 

[Nothing]

I am NOT absolutely wrong Msizer. Free Will, by design is personal and so therefore MINE to define. You are entitled NOT to agree with my definition and may define Free Will for YOURSELF in any way you like. You may even declare, for YOURSELF that Free Will does not exist. It is YOUR 'free will" to do so.

Greatest I AM, God DOES NOT mess with free will. These things you claim that God punished us for, we did unto ourselves. To blame God is to be irresponsible. The bible, in my opinion is an example of how stupid we are to blame God for things that happen to us. That we would acuse God of being vengeful, wrathful, jealous and angry. That we would assign our most barberic and fearful feelings unto our Creator is the very definition of BLASPHEMY! THAT is the lesson we are supposed to be learning when we study our bible. Anything less is insulting God!

 

[Greatest I am]

Oh no Greatest, don't you know, God's work is perfect, we're not allowed to evaluate that, because it's beyond our comprehension. He loves us, and wants us to return to Him, but rather than just invite us into the garden directly, he made us capable of failure and gave us this test life first during which we need to earn our way back to him. The cards are stacked against us, but we have no right to complain, because that would be so presumptuous of us to question His perfect plan. Besides, we're fallable you know, so we meek sheep must bow and obey in hopes of salvation some day. Ugh, it's so ridiculous.

I agree that all is perfect.
Now it is to you to see it.
Discard the idea of a miracle working super God and it becomes clear.

Evolving perfection can easily be seen if you try to think of way Darwin would have thought when he found the Galapagos Islands.

Did he see evolving perfection or an imperfect system?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I agree that all is perfect. Can it be understood? Yes.
Now it is to you to see it.
Discard the idea of a miracle working super God and it becomes clear.

Evolving perfection can easily be seen if you try to think of way Darwin would have thought when he found the Galapagos Islands.

Did he see evolving perfection or an imperfect system?

Regards
DL

P S. Evil is part of perfection the same way competition is part of evolution.

 

[Greatest I am]

I am NOT absolutely wrong Msizer. Free Will, by design is personal and so therefore MINE to define. You are entitled NOT to agree with my definition and may define Free Will for YOURSELF in any way you like. You may even declare, for YOURSELF that Free Will does not exist. It is YOUR 'free will" to do so.

Greatest I AM, God DOES NOT mess with free will. These things you claim that God punished us for, we did unto ourselves. To blame God is to be irresponsible. The bible, in my opinion is an example of how stupid we are to blame God for things that happen to us. That we would acuse God of being vengeful, wrathful, jealous and angry. That we would assign our most barberic and fearful feelings unto our Creator is the very definition of BLASPHEMY! THAT is the lesson we are supposed to be learning when we study our bible. Anything less is insulting God!

The God you believe in is not around to be insulted.
can a creator be insulted by His creation? No.
The creation from a perfect creator can never not act as designed to do.

Right?

Would God make a top that does not spin? No.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

can a creator be insulted by His creation?

Sure He can. If His creation stands up and says He played no part in it's creation, He does not exist and yet, despite this nonexistence, is evil, and the creation happened purely through chance. I think if I were the Creator I might find such claims insulting.

The creation from a perfect creator can never not act as designed to do.

Right?

Would God make a top that does not spin?

Free-will is the key. The top can choose not to spin.

 

[cardero]

I'm a big promoter of free will. I say someone can do whatever they want whether they are aware of the physical consequences are not but what I never understood is when some religions say that God gives them free will but then they have to turn this free will in for a judgment sentence at the end of their lives.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

I'm a big promoter of free will. I say someone can do whatever they want whether they are aware of the physical consequences are not but what I never understood is when some religions say that God gives them free will but then they have to turn this free will in for a judgment sentence at the end of their lives.

Look at it this way:

Imagine yourself as the Creator. Now, you create humanity, give them free-will, and explain to them that, "You can do whatever you want. All I ask is that you not violate these ten rules. Everything else is cool, just please don't break these rules."
Now, these rules are not simply there to make you feel big, they actually serve the purpose of helping your creation live in harmony with you and each other.
Well, time passes, and what do you know, your creation breaks one of the big 10. You understand that they're human, they'll make mistakes, so you set up a system so that if one of your creation does something wrong and asks you for forgiveness, they'll receive it.
Simple. Good. Just.
Well, that's all well and good for those who at least try to follow the rules. What about those who don't?
Minor offenses are, of course, to be expected. Again, they're human. But what of those who murder, rape, pillage, and plunder.
Now, the same system you set up for forgiveness applies to all. They can come to you, apologize, try to do better, and all is forgiven. But they never do. They continue in their ways until the day they die.
Then what do you do?

 

[cardero]

Look at it this way:

Imagine yourself as the Creator. Now, you create humanity, give them free-will, and explain to them that, "You can do whatever you want. All I ask is that you not violate these ten rules. Everything else is cool, just please don't break these rules."
Now, these rules are not simply there to make you feel big, they actually serve the purpose of helping your creation live in harmony with you and each other.
Well, time passes, and what do you know, your creation breaks one of the big 10. You understand that they're human, they'll make mistakes, so you set up a system so that if one of your creation does something wrong and asks you for forgiveness, they'll receive it.
Simple. Good. Just.
Now, that's all well and good for those who at least try to follow the rules. What about those who don't?
Minor offenses are, of course, to be expected. They're human. But what of those who murder, rape, pillage, and plunder.
Again, the same system you set up for forgiveness applies to all. They can come to you, apologize, try to do better, and all is forgiven. But they never do. They continue in their ways until the day they die.
Then what do you do?

Probably a great and practical scenario but it does not entail that it is free. Even if those ten rules were reduced to one it wouldn't be cool and does not imply one's will is free. If there is a price to be paid at any time, it is not free.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Probably a great and practical scenario but it does not entail that it is free. Even if those ten rules were reduced to one it wouldn't be cool and does not imply one's will is free. If there is a price to be paid at any time, it is not free.

Ah, but if your creation has no rules then you are simply reduced to anarchy. One of your creation could kill another and then, when he or she is told, "That's not right.", they can simply respond, "Says who?"

 

[cardero]

Ah, but if your creation has no rules then you are simply reduced to anarchy. One of your creation could kill another and then, when he or she is told, "That's not right.", they can simply respond, "Says who?"

Let's try it this way.

Let’s say that you encountered someone who was ready to jump off a cliff because they wanted to fly. Now you know that this person will never fly and that they will probably fall to their death. The other person may not know this but they really want to try to fly. Do you appeal to this person that they can do whatever they want because God has given them free will or do you appeal to them they shouldn’t do it because this act would offend God?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Let's try it this way.

Let’s say that you encountered someone who was ready to jump off a cliff because they wanted to fly. Now you know that this person will never fly and that they will probably fall to their death. They may not know this but they really want to fly. Do you appeal to this person that they can do whatever they want because God has given them free will or do you appeal to them they shouldn’t do it because this act would offend God?

The reality of the situation is that he will fall. I would appeal to him that even though he has free-will, free-will does not negate the laws of reality. He is, of course, free to step off. I can try to save him but I can't make the choice for him. The man on the cliff can choose to believe all he likes that there will be no consequences for his action. However, once he steps off that cliff, he will discover otherwise.

 

[Greatest I am]

Sure He can. If His creation stands up and says He played no part in it's creation, He does not exist and yet, despite this nonexistence, is evil, and the creation happened purely through chance. I think if I were the Creator I might find such claims insulting.

Then why would God build this capability in His perfect works?
Man cannot fight a nature given to it by God.

Free-will is the key. The top can choose not to spin.

Tops do not think and thus have no will.

Do you believe this.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If so then how can a perfect work do imperfect things?

Do you see Eve eating of the tree of knowledge as a sin?
This is the knowledge that gives us our moral sense.
Would you stop her and give up your moral sense?

Regards
DL