You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[The_Evelyonian]

The jumper is not questioning whether the law is right or wrong, the jumper is only interested in doing what they want to do (at that moment). It could be explained that criminals express the same attributes. If someone is robbing another person or is about to kill someone, they are not thinking about the consequences or whether the law (God’s or man’s) is right or wrong. Would these criminals be expressing free-will?

Absolutely, but they still have to face the consequences of their actions. Simply because you aren't concerned with the consequences doesn't mean they do not exist. I could walk out into the middle of a highway and be totally unconcerned about the traffic but a car would hit me just the same.

This may be true but in another post you have God granting humans the ability to express free-will (but with rules). Now if there are rules and humans break them, then there must be consequences. What I have been trying to understand from our discussion is what is a example of these (Godly) consequences and if these consequences are severe and limiting, how can anyone declare that God gave us free will?

The laws (with their consequences) exist. You are free to follow those laws or not. God will not make the decision for you. Hence, free-will

That’s exactly what free-will means. If it didn’t then it would be called costly/precarious-will. Is that what God gave us?

free will (noun)

1. (philosophy) The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions.
2. (philosophy) The doctrine that human beings (and possibly other beings, such angels or higher animals) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces.

You make your own decisions in life rather than being forced to choose one path or another. That is free-will.

This would be the same as announcing that God’s love is unconditional as long as you follow A, B, and C conditions.

No, if God didn't love you and only wanted you around for mindless devotion He'd simply remove free-will all together. He's given you the chance to make your own choice. He won't force you to pick one way or another and if you decide to separate yourself from Him He'll honor your decision, but you still have to face the consequences of that decision.

 

[MSizer]

...No, if God didn't love you and only wanted you around for mindless devotion He'd simply remove free-will all together. He's given you the chance to make your own choice. He won't force you to pick one way or another and if you decide to separate yourself from Him He'll honor your decision, but you still have to face the consequences of that decision.

If that is so, please provide me with a reasonable hypothesis as to why he made me an atheist?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

If that is so, please provide me with a reasonable hypothesis as to why he made me an atheist?

First, prove to me that He did.

 

[MSizer]

I am an atheist. That's a sincere statement. (now of course I don't believe He exists, but for the sake of the argument, I'm granting it and also that He created me). Besides the burden of proof is not mine, since mine rests on the positive claim by believers that I am created, by Him no less.

 

[cardero]

The_Evelyonian writes: You make your own decisions in life rather than being forced to choose one path or another. That is free-will.

The $64,000 Question:
If you believe that God gave us free-will, is there a penalty/price/punishment (from God) on our decisions?

$120,000 Question:
What is the penalty/price/punishment (from God) for choosing a decision that is not agreeable to God?

 

[The_Evelyonian]

You are an Atheist because, at some point in your life, you reached the conclusion that God does not exist. Again, this is a decision that you made, not one that was forced on you. No one can claim to be born Atheists or Theists. Children are inherently born as Agnostics, no knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God. It is not until we are older and begin to learn about the world around us that the question of God arises

~Peace~

 

[MSizer]

You are an Atheist because, at some point in your life, you reached the conclusion that God does not exist. Again, this is a decision that you made, not one that was forced on you. No one can claim to be born Atheists or Theists. Children are inherently born as Agnostics, no knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God. It is not until we are older and begin to learn about the world around us that the question of God arises

~Peace~

False. Certainty, aka convicion, aka "the feeling of knowing" is the result of unconcious processes. We don't have any choice in what we believe to be true. We are influenced by information, but we don't decide utlimately by concious will. It's done for us by parts of the mind to which we have no access.

http://www.uth.tmc.edu/clinicalneuro/institute/2006/Efklides/Koriat%202000.pdf

Care to try again?

 

[Malleus_de_Philosophia]

You are an Atheist because, at some point in your life, you reached the conclusion that God does not exist. Again, this is a decision that you made, not one that was forced on you. No one can claim to be born Atheists or Theists. Children are inherently born as Agnostics, no knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God. It is not until we are older and begin to learn about the world around us that the question of God arises

~Peace~

Being an agnostic is just as much of a decision as choosing to be an atheist or a theist. What evidence do you have that children are born as agnostics? How can a child so very young even conceptualize (without others feeding them such information) about such a being? The idea of a being isn't considered because it isn't in their cognitive "realm". When we become older, it enters this cognitive "realm" because we have developed enough to begin to question it and from there, we make our own independent stance as to our beliefs, although these stances can change.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

False. Certainty, aka convicion, aka "the feeling of knowing" is the result of unconcious processes. We don't have any choice in what we believe to be true. We are influenced by information, but we don't decide utlimately by concious will. It's done for us by parts of the mind to which we have no access.

http://www.uth.tmc.edu/clinicalneuro/institute/2006/Efklides/Koriat 2000.pdf

Care to try again?

Nice article, thank you.

The unconscious process however is still dependent upon either personal experience or information you've taken in over time.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Being an agnostic is just as much of a decision as choosing to be an atheist or a theist. What evidence do you have that children are born as agnostics? How can a child so very young even conceptualize (without others feeding them such information) about such a being? The idea of a being isn't considered because it isn't in their cognitive "realm". When we become older, it enters this cognitive "realm" because we have developed enough to begin to question it and from there, we make our own independent stance as to our beliefs, although these stances can change.

Theist = (theos = god)

Atheist = (a = without) + (theos = god)

Agnostic = (a = without) + (gnosis = knowledge)

Agnostic literally means 'to not know' or 'to have no knowledge of' and as you said, the idea of God isn't within the cognitive realm of a child at such an early age, therefore they possess no knowledge of God at all. Hence, Agnostic

 

[The_Evelyonian]

I have to run for today. I'll be on tomorrow though so please keep the discussion warm for me. I want to thank everyone who has posted thus far. You've provided some excellent discussion and great food for thought.

~Peace~

 

[Greatest I am]

You are an Atheist because, at some point in your life, you reached the conclusion that God does not exist. Again, this is a decision that you made, not one that was forced on you. No one can claim to be born Atheists or Theists. Children are inherently born as Agnostics, no knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God. It is not until we are older and begin to learn about the world around us that the question of God arises

~Peace~

So much for baptism.

The baby does not need it but it is just done for fun and tradition then is it?

Regards
DL

 

[Malleus_de_Philosophia]

Theist = (theos = god)

Atheist = (a = without) + (theos = god)

Agnostic = (a = without) + (gnosis = knowledge)

Agnostic literally means 'to not know' or 'to have no knowledge of' and as you said, the idea of God isn't within the cognitive realm of a child at such an early age, therefore they possess no knowledge of God at all. Hence, Agnostic

That may be all very true but you're missing the problem with your argument in that being agnostic is a choice, just as being theistic and atheistic are choices. They don't have the cognitive capacity so referring to the as agnostic implies they have made a choice, which they have not. If you argue that agnostic is present for them, then you allow for atheism and theism to be present because you're implying htey have knowledge of the concept of god regardless of what their choice is. Hence, they're not agnostic, not atheist and not theist, they have no formal status until they have the cognitive capacity to formally make a decision. It makes no sense to say they are agnostic yet they cannot understand the idea of god because that's contradictory.

 

[MSizer]

Nice article, thank you.

The unconscious process however is still dependent upon either personal experience or information you've taken in over time.

So god expects me to make a choice, but doesn't provide me with the same quality of tools as other people? My mind doesn't recognize evidence for god while other peoples' minds do? Still, how them am I to blame for being forced into atheism? Why do you get a functionning tool while mine is defective? I have to spend eternity in hell becuase I was unlucky enought to be given a bad tool?

 

[no-body]

Show me that verse please. (Not meant as a snip but an honest request)

We were created perfect in Eden but free-will was still there. We fell because Adam and Eve made the wrong choice.

Why should the whole of humanity have to pay for something the first peoples did? You can say oh he gave us Jesus to correct this but he still spent centuries punishing us for something humanity didn't personally do and in the end it's only to glorify His worship. If he was really a kind and perfect God he would have forgiven Adam and Eve.

Honestly that part of Genesis has always painted God as a creepy bugger, the same with Cain and Abel He acts like He's messing with humanity even though he already knows perfectly well what happened.

 

[Greatest I am]

Why should the whole of humanity have to pay for something the first peoples did? You can say oh he gave us Jesus to correct this but he still spent centuries punishing us for something humanity didn't personally do and in the end it's only to glorify His worship. If he was really a kind and perfect God he would have forgiven Adam and Eve.

Honestly that part of Genesis has always painted God as a creepy bugger, the same with Cain and Abel He acts like He's messing with humanity even though he already knows perfectly well what happened.

I read Genesis as a myth or coming of age story that all children go through.

The talking snake must be viewed as society at large, for the story to work.

Children grow up in a home/garden where the father is all knowing and wise but they are soon drawn out of the garden/home by the temptations offered by society and the young adult must now learn of good and evil even on issues not covered by their father.

If you read Genesis where God is casting them out of the garden in a harsh voice, so to speak, you get the impression of chastisement.

If you read it in a more Jesus like tone, then you just hear God giving the new rules that the new adults now must live under.

Literal readers see a fall. I see a fall up, so to speak to the moral sense that comes from the knowledge of good and evil.

I bring God out of Genesis as a winner that way.

Those who see a fall bring Him out as having swung and missed. Strike 2 because they see Him screwing up heaven as well because Satan came out of it with God to earth.

Make sense?

Regards
DL

 

[nameless]

Sure He can. If His creation stands up and says He played no part in it's creation, He does not exist and yet, despite this nonexistence, is evil, and the creation happened purely through chance. I think if I were the Creator I might find such claims insulting.

this is a blind belief, there exist no proof for this. It is impossible to reject creator if it is proved to us, like it is impossible to reject sun. How is it able to accept something about which we have no idea? how can it be a evil?

Even if it is proven to him about the existence of a creator, why is it necessary to accept that? there was not any treaty before the creation that he is liable to accept the creator if creation is done. Actually creator has done creation according to his own 'free will', he is liable to face any sort of consequences happens due to that, he should blame himself and not the creation.

Free-will is the key. The top can choose not to spin.

distinguish free-will and no free-will

 

[nameless]

Look at it this way:

Imagine yourself as the Creator. Now, you create humanity, give them free-will, and explain to them that, "You can do whatever you want. All I ask is that you not violate these ten rules. Everything else is cool, just please don't break these rules."
Now, these rules are not simply there to make you feel big, they actually serve the purpose of helping your creation live in harmony with you and each other.
Well, time passes, and what do you know, your creation breaks one of the big 10. You understand that they're human, they'll make mistakes, so you set up a system so that if one of your creation does something wrong and asks you for forgiveness, they'll receive it.
Simple. Good. Just.
Well, that's all well and good for those who at least try to follow the rules. What about those who don't?
Minor offenses are, of course, to be expected. Again, they're human. But what of those who murder, rape, pillage, and plunder.
Now, the same system you set up for forgiveness applies to all. They can come to you, apologize, try to do better, and all is forgiven. But they never do. They continue in their ways until the day they die.
Then what do you do?

nothing wrong with all these, but how not accepting existence of creator becomes a crime? where is the intention to hurt others in that?

 

[blackout]

Our will is (potentially) as free and open as our mind is.

 

[Nothing]

It is clear to me that none of you yet understand what Free Will is, but you have provided enough information in this thread to make my point.
I do not take the story of Adam and Eve literally, but symbolically. Symbolically, when Adam and Eve ate the apple from the tree of knowledge, man first asked himself the question "Why am I here?"
Supposedly God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, and man started to become aware of his mortality. As Man's fear of mortality grew, he developed his own free will and so severed his innocent and perfectly natural connection to his Creator. This connection was innocent and natural because it WASN'T conscious.
As Man "evolved" he began to reflect on the past, plan for the future, analyze and criticise himself and others, seek control, and get revenge. As barberians it is easy to see why we would believe our Creator is barberic. The Old Testament at least was clearly written by barberians and therefore makes an excellent example of what God is NOT.
Was it not God that made the Garden of Eden? Could not Adam and Eve have lived there in eternal bliss?
God did NOT kick them out of the Garden. When they ate the apple they chose THEIR will over God's. They saw before them a multitude of choices, things to acquire, lands to control, and pleasures to seek. For this they sacrificied eternal bliss.
But they never left the Garden of Eden. In fact, here and now, WE are still in it. When Adam and Eve chose there own Free Will they blinded themselves to God's Garden and so millenia later we remain as blind as they were. Adam and Eve believed quite wrongfully that God gave them the boot. And so Man made up a lie to blame God for his stupidity.
Today we blame Adam and Eve for not being in the Garden, but this too is a lie.
The Truth is we always have been and always will be in the garden. We need only surrender our Free Will so that we may see.