You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[cardero]

The reality of the situation is that he will fall. I would appeal to him that even though he has free-will, free-will does not negate the laws of reality. He is, of course, free to step off. I can try to save him but I can't make the choice for him. The man on the cliff can choose to believe all he likes that there will be no consequences for his action. However, once he steps off that cliff, he will discover otherwise.

The point of this example was to find out if the jumper had free will.

My definition of free-will entails that a person negates any physical or spiritual rules or consequences and does what they want to do at that moment. In the case of the jumper, he wanted to fly, he may jump off the cliff and momentarily experience what it would be like to fly, as long as there was no Godly judgment or sentencing for this action, I would presume this person was fully expressing his right and free will (even though this person fell to their death).

My question back to you is: Where does a Creator fit into all of this?

 

[Greatest I am]

I'm a big promoter of free will. I say someone can do whatever they want whether they are aware of the physical consequences are not but what I never understood is when some religions say that God gives them free will but then they have to turn this free will in for a judgment sentence at the end of their lives.

Yes. Strange that some believe that-- do it my way or burn forever-- is free will.
Sounds to me more like coercion and a threat.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

The point of this example was to find out if the jumper had free will.

My definition of free-will entails that a person negates any physical or spiritual rules or consequences and does what they want to do at that moment. In the case of the jumper, he wanted to fly, he may jump off the cliff and momentarily experience what it would be like to fly, as long as there was no Godly judgment or sentencing for this action, I would presume this person was fully expressing his right and free will (even though this person fell to their death).

My question back to you is: Where does a Creator fit into all of this?

You asked

I'm a big promoter of free will. I say someone can do whatever they want whether they are aware of the physical consequences are not but what I never understood is when some religions say that God gives them free will but then they have to turn this free will in for a judgment sentence at the end of their lives.

 

[Greatest I am]

Ah, but if your creation has no rules then you are simply reduced to anarchy. One of your creation could kill another and then, when he or she is told, "That's not right.", they can simply respond, "Says who?"

How did God punish the first murderer, Cane.
Scripture says that he was given the, punishment, of creating a city and living happily ever after.
Nice punishment.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The reality of the situation is that he will fall. I would appeal to him that even though he has free-will, free-will does not negate the laws of reality. He is, of course, free to step off. I can try to save him but I can't make the choice for him. The man on the cliff can choose to believe all he likes that there will be no consequences for his action. However, once he steps off that cliff, he will discover otherwise.

Does God have to follow these laws of reality?
What about His laws of not killing?
Scripture shows God breaking His own laws here.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Tops do not think and thus have no will.

It was simply a metaphor.

Do you believe this.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

If so then how can a perfect work do imperfect things?

Free-will.

Do you see Eve eating of the tree of knowledge as a sin?
This is the knowledge that gives us our moral sense.
Would you stop her and give up your moral sense?

What's this have to do with free-will?

Yes. Strange that some believe that-- do it my way or burn forever-- is free will.
Sounds to me more like coercion and a threat.

You seem to be confusing free-will and freedom. Free-will is not the freedom to do anything you want without consequence. Free-will is being allowed to make your own decisions, even with knowledge of the consequences.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

How did God punish the first murderer, Cane.
Scripture says that he was given the, punishment, of creating a city and living happily ever after.
Nice punishment.

Regards
DL

He was banished from his family and all that he knew. Even he said his punishment was more than he could bear.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Does God have to follow these laws of reality?
What about His laws of not killing?
Scripture shows God breaking His own laws here.

Regards
DL

Not arbitrarily. Usually it was done as a judgment or penalty for breaking the laws, which He said would have consequences.

 

[Greatest I am]

It was simply a metaphor.



Free-will.



What's this have to do with free-will?

Simple. Eve was the firts to exercise it. Her or Satan depending on how literally you read.

Could you go back and answer the question. It is important as to the way you think.


You seem to be confusing free-will and freedom. Free-will is not the freedom to do anything you want without consequence. Free-will is being allowed to make your own decisions, even with knowledge of the consequences.

That is true but a perfect creation, according to scripture, will make the perfect choice. Eve did just that.

Regards
DL

 

[cardero]

Yes but you posed the scenerio:

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian
Look at it this way:

Imagine yourself as the Creator. Now, you create humanity, give them free-will, and explain to them that, "You can do whatever you want. All I ask is that you not violate these ten rules. Everything else is cool, just please don't break these rules."
Now, these rules are not simply there to make you feel big, they actually serve the purpose of helping your creation live in harmony with you and each other.

I pose the example of the jumper who wanted to fly, now we can safely assume that this person will not be exposed to anymore physical laws but I was just interested where the creator fit into all this?
Does God do anything because He gave them free will or is this person subjected to some kind of judgment or sentencing or penalty because of their willingness to wanting to fly?

 

[Greatest I am]

He was banished from his family and all that he knew. Even he said his punishment was more than he could bear.

And yet he did bear it and prospered.
In other words murder pays well.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

That is true but a perfect creation, according to scripture, will make the perfect choice. Eve did just that.

Regards
DL

Show me that verse please. (Not meant as a snip but an honest request)

We were created perfect in Eden but free-will was still there. We fell because Adam and Eve made the wrong choice.

 

[Greatest I am]

Not arbitrarily. Usually it was done as a judgment or penalty for breaking the laws, which He said would have consequences.

Hitler and Stalin also judged -- the other--as well.

Strange that God would place Himself as a good example to these and others.

8 good souls out of the million at the time of the flood is a **** poor average for a God who starts all of His creations out as perfect.

Does that not sound rather incompetent of the creation process or could it be that you are just misinterpreting scripture?

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

I pose the example of the jumper who wanted to fly, now we can safely assume that this person will not be exposed to anymore physical laws but I was just interested where the creator fit into all this?
Does God do anything because He gave them free will or is this person subjected to some kind of judgment or sentencing or penalty becasue of their willingness to wanting to fly?

Well, if the law says, "If you jump off of the cliff, you'll die." and the jumper says, "No, the law is wrong, I can fly."...

The law exists. We are free to decide to follow it or not. Again, free-will does NOT equal absolute freedom from the consequence of our actions. You are free to touch a hot stove, but you'll still get burned.

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Hitler and Stalin also judged -- the other--as well.

Strange that God would place Himself as a good example to these and others.

8 good souls out of the million at the time of the flood is a **** poor average for a God who starts all of His creations out as perfect.

Does that not sound rather incompetent of the creation process or could it be that you are just misinterpreting scripture?

Regards
DL

No, it sounds like humanity has a history of making bad choices.

 

[Greatest I am]

Show me that verse please. (Not meant as a snip but an honest request)

We were created perfect in Eden but free-will was still there. We fell because Adam and Eve made the wrong choice.

If reaching for the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge that gives us our moral sense, was wrong, then that would mean that man is a better man without a moral sense.

Would you give up yours?

Is man a better man without a moral sense?

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

If reaching for the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge that gives us our moral sense, was wrong, then that would mean that man is a better man without a moral sense.

Would you give up yours?

Is man a better man without a moral sense?

Regards
DL

In today's world, a moral sense is a good thing, I'm not arguing that fact. But look at the world Adam and Eve were placed in. A perfect place in perfect harmony. A place where God communicated with them face to face. In such a place a knowledge of good and evil would not have been needed. Eating from the tree may have granted man his moral sense but it cost him much, much more.

Making a bad choice may result in good things in the short-term, but in the long-run the consequences of your actions will always catch up with you.

I gotta run for now, real-life calls. This is a good discussion though, definitely provides food for thought. I'll rejoin it when I can.

~Peace~

 

[Greatest I am]

In today's world, a moral sense is a good thing, I'm not arguing that fact. But look at the world Adam and Eve were placed in. A perfect place in perfect harmony. A place where God communicated with them face to face. In such a place a knowledge of good and evil would not have been needed. Eating from the tree may have granted man his moral sense but it cost him much, much more.

Making a bad choice may result in good things in the short-term, but in the long-run the consequences of your actions will always catch up with you.

I gotta run for now, real-life calls. This is a good discussion though, definitely provides food for thought. I'll rejoin it when I can.

~Peace~

You have a strange view.

Bad choices providing good and a good choice turning to evil.
Gaining a moral sense is good for now but not then.

You would give it up then but not now.

I have no idea where you stand.

Regards
DL

 

[The_Evelyonian]

You have a strange view.

I can be paid no higher compliment

Bad choices providing good and a good choice turning to evil.
Gaining a moral sense is good for now but not then.

Such is the nature of life, my friend. You may make a choice believing that it will result in good, only to have it backfire. The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.

You would give it up then but not now.

I didn't say that. In the world they were in a knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't necessary. They had God right there with them. I can't say what I'd do in their situation, I'm not there.

I have no idea where you stand.

Regards
DL

I try to remain mysterious. It keeps life interesting

~Peace~

 

[cardero]

The_Evelyonian writes: Well, if the law says, "If you jump off of the cliff, you'll die." and the jumper says, "No, the law is wrong, I can fly."...

The jumper is not questioning whether the law is right or wrong, the jumper is only interested in doing what they want to do (at that moment). It could be explained that criminals express the same attributes. If someone is robbing another person or is about to kill someone, they are not thinking about the consequences or whether the law (God’s or man’s) is right or wrong. Would these criminals be expressing free-will?

The_Evelyonian writes: The law exists. We are free to decide to follow it or not.

This may be true but in another post you have God granting humans the ability to express free-will (but with rules). Now if there are rules and humans break them, then there must be consequences. What I have been trying to understand from our discussion is what is a example of these (Godly) consequences and if these consequences are severe and limiting and if they are how anyone can declare that God gave us free will?

The_Evelyonian Again, free-will does NOT equal absolute freedom from the consequence of our actions.

That’s exactly what free-will means. If it didn’t then it would be called costly/precarious-will. Is that what God gave us? This would be the same as announcing that God’s love is unconditional as long as you follow A, B, and C conditions.

The_Evelyonian writes: You are free to touch a hot stove, but you'll still get burned.

But it seems not as bad as believing that there is a God who grants one free-will and then judges our decisions inadequately when we express it incorrectly.