Your Best Argument for God's Existence

[Sand Dancer]

Design is not direct proof of a God. It IS EVIDENCE of a God. It sure is. Information from what we KNOW always comes from a mind. Design and information is not an argument from ignorence, its an argument from what we know of the world.



That would require PROOF. That i cannot give. Proof and evidence are not the same.

Also you mentioned the God of abraham. In Intelligent design you dont have to believe in any one particular God to adhere to intelligent design. Why? Because its akin to seeing a car, you know its designed, but you dont know WHO designed it.

Well, theres theists, deists, pantheists, polytheists, even people who believe aliens made us. All these folks can adhere to intelligent design and information.



Thats right. But, since so little is proven in this world, we go by evidence, inference, logic or philosophy.



Well, the OP put it well. Information in the DNA. Also complexity in the world. Also spiritual experiences. Like NDEs.

If it is evidence, it does not prove any particular god.

 

[Jollybear]

Most atheists are ex-Christians, so we believed at once time.

Most atheists are ex christians? How did you determine that?

 

[Sand Dancer]

I drawed that conclusion because chance cannot create all this order and design. In fact under controlled experiments chance has been shown to not exist.

Would design allow for all of the flaws abounding in nature?

Also, i conclude God created it because it cannot come from nothing, that makes no sense. It cannot create itself, thats a contradiction.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed. Everything needed for the "big bang" was already there.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Most atheists are ex christians? How did you determine that?

Majority of atheists are ex-Christians with a University education
Most people, at least up until the last generation, were raised Christian, in one form or another.

 

[Audie]

Trying to show evidence to a stubborn atheist is like trying to show and explain a tree and beauty of the sun to a blind man.

Are you a creationist?

 

[Audie]

Most atheists are ex christians? How did you determine that?

The correct term is "recovering Christian".
A little sensitivity, please!

 

[osgart]

I dont believe god exists myself but biological function suggests intentionality in the makings of creatures. Especially the human body. Legs and feet, hands and arms. No one has ever came up with a valid explanation of specific biological function, more like, they try to explain it away. Anything to avoid intentionality in the makings of living creatures.

 

[Audie]

I dont believe god exists myself but biological function suggests intentionality in the makings of creatures. Especially the human body. Legs and feet, hands and arms. No one has ever came up with a valid explanation of specific biological function, more like, they try to explain it away. Anything to avoid intentionality in the makings of living creatures.

What do you mean by "explanation of specific biological function"??

 

[Segev Moran]

Here's mine:
Proof God exists is SUPER EASY for anyone to understand (sadly, the stubborn denier is the exception):

For the record, i Know God exists.

1) Each DNA contains 100 million pages worth of instructions to build the entire body.

These are not instructions per say. these are combinations of chemical ingredients that cause cells to form and position themselves in specific locations.

Do instructions write themselves? Nope.

Actually, yes.
The process of complexity out of simplicity can be demonstrated.

Instructions don't write themselves.

Try and look at it the other way around. the instructions describe a situation and not the situation arise from the instructions.

Behind every instruction is an 'instructor' who authored it.

Not really.
If you'll start a random process and repeat it enough times, pattern will emerge that will seem ordered but are not really ordered.

Carl Sagan said: "The information content of a simple cell has been established as around one trillion bits, comparable to about 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica."

Yep. this wasn't always the case.

2) Every genome is written as a quaternary molecular digital code: "All present life is based on digitally-encoded information." (American Academy of Sciences). Do digital programs write themselves? Nope again.

Actually.. yes (in a way). we today already have codes that write codes.

3) Each cell contains hi-tech miniature organs (organelles - nucleus, golgi bodies, mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc.) - none of which are naturally found elsewhere - hence no natural explanation for their existence.

What do you mean? life is a natural being!

4) Who can write a 100 million pages worth of instructions and then stuff it into every cell of our body? This hyper-intellect is who we will face on Judgment Day.

Here is the problem. you assume judgement day from something that has got nothing to do with it.
Lets say that indeed we are a pre-designed life form. how does that prove judgement day?

With item (1) almost every reasonable person acknowledges that they have never seen nor heard of instructions writing themselves. This is common sense to most people although not all.

Not all indeed. we already today have an understanding how simple tasks can create order and huge complexity.

Some argue they see all the above occur in nature when cells reproduce. However, there is still no explanation how the very first living cell came about with all those instructions in its DNA, and although some theorize that organelles were first formed by bacteria invading a host 'cell', we've never seen organelles produced by such a mechanism nor has such a mechanism ever been DEMONSTRATED and VALIDATED by any study.

This doesn't mean it will not be discovered eventually.
DNA is assumed to be a more complex RNA structure.
We have some thesis how life formed and none can (yet) be approved or disapproved.

Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.

I would say the fact we have the ability to act against all the complexity you just mentioned is a proof that at least the free will notion is true.
I take each claim as a separate proof.

So far, many claims from the bible are validated and appear to be true.
Examples:

Free will.
Initial state of the universe.
Non-gender to gender.

And many many more.

 

[osgart]

What do you mean by "explanation of specific biological function"??

Just the simple form and function of human bodies. It appears that my feet are purposed to walk, hands seem purposed to grab. It appears that eyes are meant to see, and ears to hear. Its not perfect, but its what a creature needs to live and survive. It does not seem haphazard and chaotic that we have all the functions of the human body. Nor does it seem that order and function would ever arise from nature if there were no intentionality behind it. It appears obvious to me that this is the case.

I hear the arguments that natural selection and random variation in mutations are undirected and inevitable brute fact that life exists. But i am unconvinced by that.

 

[Audie]

Just the simple form and function of human bodies. It appears that my feet are purposed to walk, hands seem purposed to grab. It appears that eyes are meant to see, and ears to hear. Its not perfect, but its what a creature needs to live and survive. It does not seem haphazard and chaotic that we have all the functions of the human body. Nor does it seem that order and function would ever arise from nature if there were no intentionality behind it. It appears obvious to me that this is the case.

I hear the arguments that natural selection and random variation in mutations are undirected and inevitable brute fact that life exists. But i am unconvinced by that.

Time spent in study helps the understanding of a y topic.

Far from "explain away" the explsnation for form structure
and function of organ systems is laid out most elegantly
and in great detail.

Not saying this is 5 minutes, or a month of eze resding.
It isnt.

For those among us who have put in the long hours in lab, lecture
and study, though, it is not about "being convinced" really,
but understanding the sense and elegance of evolution.

There is a lot to understand, but nothing to "explain away".

And for that matter, nothing about any of it being incompatible
with "god". Just no role for a god who must tinker adjust and
meddle to keep his crestion from going off the rail.

 

[osgart]

Time spent in study helps the understanding of a y topic.

Far from "explain away" the explsnation for form structure
and function of organ systems is laid out most elegantly
and in great detail.

Not saying this is 5 minutes, or a month of eze resding.
It isnt.

For those among us who have put in the long hours in lab, lecture
and study, though, it is not about "being convinced" really,
but understanding the sense and elegance of evolution.

There is a lot to understand, but nothing to "explain away".

And for that matter, nothing about any of it being incompatible
with "god". Just no role for a god who must tinker adjust and
meddle to keep his crestion from going off the rail.

Fair enough!

I see what i see. I really dont buy into a supernatural deity.

For me , it is a lousy creation anyways.

 

[Audie]

Fair enough!

I see what i see. I really dont buy into a supernatural deity.

For me , it is a lousy creation anyways.

Aww.. Someone needs a hug.

 

[Valjean]

How did instructional codes in DNA come about from unintelligent natural mechanisms? What are those mechanisms that do that?

You're asking a lot. There are whole textbooks about abiogenesis and the origin of life, and YouTube's full of simplified videos about it.
if you're asking the evolution of the code it's more straightforward. ordinary evolutionary process like natural selection built it up over millions of years.

It's not that complicated a molecule, just long -- being a polymer and all. Nucleotides self assemble all the time.

Ok....well, based off what we know of how codes and information work and design works from human engineering, we see this kind of thing in nature, so, we infere actual design in nature.

Yes, design and intent have always been inferred, but with the advent of science we've come to understand that tides, eclipses, anatomy, thunder, reproduction, landforms &c have natural explanations that don't require a living being to engineer.

Also, how we can tell NONE design is by taking all the parts of a unbuilt car, throwing them on the ground and wait till a tornado hits it and then hope by chance all the parts come together just right in order to build the car. It wont happen. But, all those designed parts by themselves are NOT a designed car UNTIL the parts come together, THEN its a designed car. So then, we know from human engineering again, what none design looks like. So, based on that, we infer EVERYTHING in nature is designed.

Which is a mistake, of course. Many complex things form all on their own, guided only by the unguided laws of chemistry or physics.
Hoyle's old "whirlwind in a junkyard" not being able to assemble a 747 just showed his misunderstanding of the mechanisms of evolution.

Airplanes -- or cars -- don't reproduce with variation. There's nothing for evolution to work with. The example just won't fly.

 

[Jollybear]

Are you a creationist?

I believe God created it, yes. The age of the earth is not important to me. However, recorded history is about 5 to 8 thousand years. But, the earth? It dont matter to me. God created it.

The correct term is "recovering Christian".
A little sensitivity, please!

Your an ex christian? What made you leave?

 

[Baroodi]

when people see the UFOs, they talk about aliens although we have no conclusive evidence for them. Why people then ignore the so many signs indicating God Almighty?

 

[Jollybear]

That's strange. Those parts are not indicative of a designed car? They might not be part of a BUILT car, but for sure they have been designed with the designed car already in mind.

Right, the parts wer designed from blueprints with a built car in mind. Which is indicative to DNA information having in mind what our built body will be like using proteins.

Take 100 different cars, break them down, take randomly one component from the heap (e.g. the steering wheel, the brakes, etc) and try to reassemble a full functioning cars without add ons.
You will find it difficult also with tornadoes.

Right, unless one was a engineer or machanic, it be hard to rebuild the car, and impossible for a tornado to do so.

Likewise, natural, unintelligent forces (e.g. the tornado) building our body's?

So, back to square one.

Ciao

- viole

Id like to clarify more on the non design. When our bodys die, they break down, decompose and become firtilizer for the ground. So, the former design (we can call it body) is no longer THAT design anymore. In otherwords its NON design now. But, its turned into a DIFFERENT design. That new design is firtilizer.

What you think?

 

[Audie]

I believe God created it, yes. The age of the earth is not important to me. However, recorded history is about 5 to 8 thousand years. But, the earth? It dont matter to me. God created it.



Your an ex christian? What made you leave?

"You're"

Never was any sort of religionist.

If you've no interest / curiosity re
things like the histoty if earth, you
dont. I've a idea to explore here,
so tty this- do you think thete really
wasva Noahs ark?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Here's mine:
Proof God exists is SUPER EASY for anyone to understand (sadly, the stubborn denier is the exception):

1) Each DNA contains 100 million pages worth of instructions to build the entire body. Do instructions write themselves? Nope. Instructions don't write themselves. Behind every instruction is an 'instructor' who authored it. Carl Sagan said: "The information content of a simple cell has been established as around one trillion bits, comparable to about 100 million pages of the Encyclopaedia Britannica."

2) Every genome is written as a quaternary molecular digital code: "All present life is based on digitally-encoded information." (American Academy of Sciences). Do digital programs write themselves? Nope again.

3) Each cell contains hi-tech miniature organs (organelles - nucleus, golgi bodies, mitochondria, chloroplasts, etc.) - none of which are naturally found elsewhere - hence no natural explanation for their existence.

4) Who can write a 100 million pages worth of instructions and then stuff it into every cell of our body? This hyper-intellect is who we will face on Judgment Day.

With item (1) almost every reasonable person acknowledges that they have never seen nor heard of instructions writing themselves. This is common sense to most people although not all.

Some argue they see all the above occur in nature when cells reproduce. However, there is still no explanation how the very first living cell came about with all those instructions in its DNA, and although some theorize that organelles were first formed by bacteria invading a host 'cell', we've never seen organelles produced by such a mechanism nor has such a mechanism ever been DEMONSTRATED and VALIDATED by any study.

Anyway, I would like to hear your argument for God's existence. Thank you.

Where did God come from? Certainly a god that can create such a sophisticated universe must be at least as sophisticated, and also demands an explanation if the universe demands an explanation. So who made God?

 

[Audie]

when people see the UFOs, they talk about aliens although we have no conclusive evidence for them. Why people then ignore the so many signs indicating God Almighty?

So many Signs.

You believe in flying saucers?
Bigfoot?
Nessie?
Reptoids?
Mermaids?
Chupacabre?