Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I concede: there is nothing that evidences the non-existence of God. Nothing at all.

Indirectly there is.

There is plenty of evidence that God's effect is insignificant and negligible. One of the most obvious explanations for insignificance and negligibility of effect is non-existence.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Wait... the message that I'm getting from you is that God decided that the best way to teach your son maturity is, effectively, to torture him. Is this right?

It is not right. Keep twisting though.

Was that God's goal in all this?

Wow. That's some pent up hostility towards a God you claim to not believe in. I wish you healing.

Frankly, I consider this sentiment a crock. There are truly awful, horrible things that happen in this world that can't be justified by any means. Personally, I consider the idea that they're "all for the best" or part of the plan of a loving God to be the biggest intellectual compromise at all... and a dangerous one at that.

Yes, there are some truly horrible things that happen in this world and mostly by humans to humans. It's a catch 22 for God in this. You are willing to blame him for everything bad, but deny his complicity for anything good. You should watch Bruce Almighty a time or two. Simply hilarious and it addresses the concept of God as nothing more than a cosmic bell hop.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

[I don't think that there is a "lesson" here....]

Respectfully,

But did you, your father and mother pray? (I'm not suggesting that things would not have turned out differently)

Not me, not my father. My mother probably did, but didn't talk about it.

How did this effect your wife? Did she feel sufficiently strengthened by prayer to comfort you?

She was very upset. She tried her best to comfort me, but she was pretty badly affected herself.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Indirectly there is.

There is plenty of evidence that God's effect is insignificant and negligible. One of the most obvious explanations for insignificance and negligibility of effect is non-existence.

Sure, if you consider the creation of the world insignificant. I guess we have differing standards for that.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

She was very upset. She tried her best to comfort me, but she was pretty badly affected herself.

I'm sorry that I wasn't specific.

I mean to this day. Is she torn up that prayers weren't "answered" or deepening her faith?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is not right. Keep twisting though.

So was your son poisoned? Did someone else cause his condition?

I suppose his MRSA might be someone else's fault, but they didn't manufacture the MRSA, did they?

Wow. That's some pent up hostility towards a God you claim to not believe in. I wish you healing.

It's not hostility toward a non-existent God, it's hostility toward the human idea that suffering is a good thing.

I recognize that the term "God" is used as a sort of archetype for perfection or justice... an anthropomorphization of human ideals. I realize that when people attribute things to God, they're usually implicitly declaring them to be good, just or perfect. It's that association that I'm attacking, not God himself.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm sorry that I wasn't specific.

I mean to this day. Is she torn up that prayers weren't "answered" or deepening her faith?

She isn't torn up that her prayers weren't "answered", no, but she hasn't expressed to me that her faith was deepend by the experience.

Thinking back, though, that was right around the time that she finally seemed to come to terms with the fact that I was probably never going to become a Christian... though other events happened around the same time that might've played a role in that.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

She isn't torn up that her prayers weren't "answered", no, but she hasn't expressed to me that her faith was deepend by the experience.

Thinking back, though, that was right around the time that she finally seemed to come to terms with the fact that I was probably never going to become a Christian... though other events happened around the same time that might've played a role in that.

For me, not attending the Catholic church because of its attitude toward homosexuality is one thing, and feeling bad at Christmas and carrying the weight of unanswered prayer is quite another. When Catholics pray, they aren't Catholics, but people opening up their hearts to God.

IMHO, I think that asking her what she thinks about this and could be very constructive.

 

[Dan4reason]

Sure, if you consider the creation of the world insignificant. I guess we have differing standards for that.

The complexity of this world IS evidence that this world was created by a Judeo-Christian God. If there was not complexity, God would by less plausible.

By the same token, the complexity of the universe is also evidence that this world is simply a simulation by a computer programmer. It is also evidence that this world was created by the devil. It is also evidence that this world was created by the flying spagetti monster. The problem here is that the evidence is not very strong.

The complexity of this world does not prove that it was created because all the ideas of the creation of this universe point to a natural explanation. If you choose to reject this, then all you will have is a complex world and no way of explaining how it got there. Since we have no real data on how our universe get here, the creation of the universe becomes a big question.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Just after he was admitted, my wife (who had been praying for him all along) had an intention for him given in Sunday mass at her church - several hundred people earnestly prayed for my father. Rather than get better, he actually got worse, finally losing consciousness; for several weeks, it seemed like he only had the capacity to feel pain... that went away as well. Finally, he died.

FWIW, my grandfather, a lifelong conservative Baptist, cries every time he thinks about his father's funeral. And that was more than 50 years ago.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For me, not attending the Catholic church because of its attitude toward homosexuality is one thing, and feeling bad at Christmas and carrying the weight of unanswered prayer is quite another.When Catholics pray, they aren't Catholics, but people opening up their hearts to God.

Yes, but both my experience in Mass and my experience with my father's illness share an effect: they push me away from the form of Christianity that my wife has chosen.

The incident with the anti-gay homily, along with other positions of the Church, solidified in my mind that the Catholic Church was acting contrary to love. What happened with my father didn't really change my views on God, but it brought attention to the fact that I view the Problem of Evil/Problem of Suffering as a fundamental problem for any form of Christianity that I could've ever taken seriously.

IMHO, I think that asking her what she thinks about this and could be very constructive.

Perhaps.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, but both my experience in Mass and my experience with my father's illness share an effect: they push me away from the form of Christianity that my wife has chosen.

The incident with the anti-gay homily, along with other positions of the Church, solidified in my mind that the Catholic Church was acting contrary to love. What happened with my father didn't really change my views on God, but it brought attention to the fact that I view the Problem of Evil/Problem of Suffering as a fundamental problem for any form of Christianity that I could've ever taken seriously.


Perhaps.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Catholicism, either. Every branch of Christianity has its sane and insane leaders. You wife's church could easily have had a preist who either never talked about it or was more liberal.

And you're right, the central problem with Christianity - and all theists for that matter - is the problem of evil and the goodness of God. That's where my theology begins rather than ends.

 

[Scuba Pete]

So was your son poisoned? Did someone else cause his condition?

I suppose his MRSA might be someone else's fault, but they didn't manufacture the MRSA, did they?

There is no need to assign blame. My son is suffering and I am doing my best to see that it is stopped. We are a function of our evolution. Evolution is a slow and painful process, but it's the one God has chosen. I like the results so far, don't you?

It's not hostility toward a non-existent God, it's hostility toward the human idea that suffering is a good thing.

Hostility is definitely affecting your arguments here. If suffering were good, then I would become ascetic. As it is, I do my best to prevent, ameliorate and end suffering. Again: my wish is for you to heal. Anger over time is never healthy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is no need to assign blame. My son is suffering and I am doing my best to see that it is stopped. We are a function of our evolution. Evolution is a slow and painful process, but it's the one God has chosen. I like the results so far, don't you?

Mostly yes, but I see plenty of things that I want to change. I also see that if many people think that the path we're on has been chosen by God, then it will likely be difficult to convince them to change to something better.

Hostility is definitely affecting your arguments here. If suffering were good, then I would become ascetic.

I didn't say that the claim was that only suffering is good.

As it is, I do my best to prevent, ameliorate and end suffering.

Why?

I ask this in all seriousness. My reasons for wanting to end suffering are all rooted in the physical. However, you said before that there's more to life than the physical, and used this to explain why God apparently doesn't feel compelled to answer prayers for relief of physical suffering.

So... are your reasons for wanting to end suffering rooted in the physical as well? Or do you have other reasons?

Again: my wish is for you to heal. Anger over time is never healthy.

Any anger I have at this is only transitory. Once people stop suggesting to me that suffering is part of some perfect plan, it goes away all on its own.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, yes, because I think this definition of "supernatural" is itself intellectually dishonest.

I think the best thing to do now is to agree on a definition of "supernatural". According to Dictionary.com, it means "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal".

But then what is natural? According to the same source, it means "existing in or formed by nature". If something affects our universe, doesn't it become natural?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Catholicism, either. Every branch of Christianity has its sane and insane leaders. You wife's church could easily have had a preist who either never talked about it or was more liberal.

Actually, it was an outside priest who was apparently trucked in for the occasion who gave the homily I had so much of a problem with. However, the problem wasn't just with him: it came right on the heels of the Archbishop of Toronto's open letter asking the Prime Minister to use the notwithstanding clause in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms to prevent the legalization of same-sex marriage.

(note for the Americans reading: for an analogy in American law, this would be like suspending the Bill of Rights for the purposes of one piece of legislation... if American law allowed for this)

And for me, it was pretty much Catholicism or nothing. Because of my family connection to the Quakers, I tried attending a Friends meeting for a while, but it never really worked for me. Religion was pretty well irrelevant in my life until I met my wife, who is a Catholic and originally wanted me to consider becoming a Catholic as well.

As far as my personal beliefs go, other religions are still pretty well irrelevant for me. However, I find them interesting in other ways, e.g. as socio-cultural phenomena. I've also become more and more interested in history, and you can't really avoid the subject of religion if you're going to study history in any proper way.

Catholicism still maintains a bit of relevance to me, because my wife is obligated to bring any children we have up in "the faith". This has led me to continue to explore Catholicism to a degree that I probably wouldn't otherwise.

And you're right, the central problem with Christianity - and all theists for that matter - is the problem of evil and the goodness of God. That's where my theology begins rather than ends.

Wait - so you see theology (at least in part?) as an exercise in reconciling the problem?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Wait - so you see theology (at least in part?) as an exercise in reconciling the problem?

Yes, I do. What I'm saying is that a theology that is built and then tested on the problem of evil is, IMHO, a failure.

Like assuming God is good and then building a theology on that basis, and applying that theology to the problem of evil. It can't (or hasn't) been done.

However, if we start with the problem of evil and work our way out of it, we already have a working theological model. A light in the darkness so to speak.

 

[sojourner]

Yes, I do. What I'm saying is that a theology that is built and then tested on the problem of evil is, IMHO, a failure.

Like assuming God is good and then building a theology on that basis, and applying that theology to the problem of evil. It can't (or hasn't) been done.

However, if we start with the problem of evil and work our way out of it, we already have a working theological model. A light in the darkness so to speak.

For some, the light in the darkness is an oncoming train...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, I do. What I'm saying is that a theology that is built and then tested on the problem of evil is, IMHO, a failure.

Like assuming God is good and then building a theology on that basis, and applying that theology to the problem of evil. It can't (or hasn't) been done.

So mainstream Christianity is a failure?

However, if we start with the problem of evil and work our way out of it, we already have a working theological model. A light in the darkness so to speak.

So your theology doesn't assume that God is good?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So mainstream Christianity is a failure?

I'm not sure what "mainstream" is anymore. I would not say Chrsitianity is a failure, but it's made itself irrelevant to anything but itself. It begins with irrelevance.

So your theology doesn't assume that God is good?

No.