Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[Beaudreaux]

There is no need to assign blame. My son is suffering and I am doing my best to see that it is stopped.

Why are you trying to stop it? Didn't you just explain how this has been good for him?

 

[Beaudreaux]

I think the best thing to do now is to agree on a definition of "supernatural". According to Dictionary.com, it means "of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal".

But then what is natural? According to the same source, it means "existing in or formed by nature". If something affects our universe, doesn't it become natural?

It certainly does.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I didn't say that the claim was that only suffering is good.

Your claim was that I thought suffering was "good". Good is not the same as inevitable.

Why?

I ask this in all seriousness. My reasons for wanting to end suffering are all rooted in the physical. However, you said before that there's more to life than the physical, and used this to explain why God apparently doesn't feel compelled to answer prayers for relief of physical suffering.

My reasons for wanting pain to stop are rooted in the physical. My reasons for enduring it are in the spiritual. There is more to life than the physical, but the physical is still there. We are spirits in a material world.

So... are your reasons for wanting to end suffering rooted in the physical as well? Or do you have other reasons?

Compassion for others. I can't see the bigger picture of how each individual's suffering is helping us to develop as a species. I have faith in evolution that it will continue to work.

Any anger I have at this is only transitory. Once people stop suggesting to me that suffering is part of some perfect plan, it goes away all on its own.

Goes away, or simply ceases to manifest itself? I can't tell you how YOU work, but I have the tendency to bury anger until a trigger lets it all out. It's hard work to get it all out so that it can't be triggered.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why are you trying to stop it? Didn't you just explain how this has been good for him?

Argumentum absurdum: You have it down cold!

 

[Scuba Pete]

So mainstream Christianity is a failure?

Well, duh!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your claim was that I thought suffering was "good". Good is not the same as inevitable.

"Good" as in part of the plan of a good God, yes. This doesn't necessarily mean that all suffering is good... though.

My reasons for wanting pain to stop are rooted in the physical. My reasons for enduring it are in the spiritual. There is more to life than the physical, but the physical is still there. We are spirits in a material world.

So... while the physical tells you to help people's suffering, the spiritual tells you not to?

Compassion for others. I can't see the bigger picture of how each individual's suffering is helping us to develop as a species. I have faith in evolution that it will continue to work.

But you just said that suffering imparts spiritual benefits. Why deprive people of these benefits?

Goes away, or simply ceases to manifest itself? I can't tell you how YOU work, but I have the tendency to bury anger until a trigger lets it all out. It's hard work to get it all out so that it can't be triggered.

No... as I tried to get at before, I don't get angry at entities I don't believe exist.

But at this point, I get the sense that you're trying to bait me, so I think this is a good spot to leave the matter.

 

[Scuba Pete]

"Good" as in part of the plan of a good God, yes. This doesn't necessarily mean that all suffering is good... though.


So... while the physical tells you to help people's suffering, the spiritual tells you not to?


But you just said that suffering imparts spiritual benefits. Why deprive people of these benefits?

Talk about baiting people. You are the master of baiting.

No... as I tried to get at before, I don't get angry at entities I don't believe exist.

But at this point, I get the sense that you're trying to bait me, so I think this is a good spot to leave the matter.

No... it was sincere. I am not trying to force you into an absurd corner.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Talk about baiting people. You are the master of baiting.

I'm not trying to bait you; I'm trying to understand your position. If I get what you're saying, you feel personally obligated to help suffering people, but also think that it's appropriate when God doesn't help a suffering person. I'm just trying to figure out how these two positions are consistent with each other.

No... it was sincere. I am not trying to force you into an absurd corner.

I didn't get that - I thought you were more trying to rile me up.

 

[ChristineES]

Not asserting a belief in God is not "anti" faith. It is "non" faith. It asserts nothing.

And isn't asserting nothing the same as not asserting?

The OP itself is proclaiming that people of faith MUST have a compromise to their intelligence. We, of faith, are telling you that we have no compromises to our intellect. It seems the more we proclaim we don't compromise the more you tell us that we must.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Why are you trying to stop it? Didn't you just explain how this has been good for him?

Argumentum absurdum: You have it down cold!

Why is that absurd?

• Fact- you claimed that this affliction has been good for your son by helping him gain maturity and an insight into the world that he would not have gotten otherwise
• Fact- you then claim that you would do anything in your power to relieve him of this illness

You can't have it both ways. Either your son's disease is not a bad thing or it is. Nothing absurd about questioning you in this. It is a bit absurd, however, the way you try to avoid answering.

 

[waitasec]

If you didn't have a faith (or anti-faith) then you would not need to assert it.

well, let's see.
faith causes division; "my god is real, yours is not"
faith causes hate; "homosexuality is evil"
faith causes ignorance; "slavery is ordained by god"
faith causes fear; " i have to believe, otherwise, i will go to hell"
faith causes injustices; slavery, anti same sex marriage, anti bi-racial marriages, sexism, honor killings, genital mutilation

it's not so much the faith i am against, it's is what it creates...

so of course i have to speak out against it, because it affects my world.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Why is that absurd?

• Fact- you claimed that this affliction has been good for your son by helping him gain maturity and an insight into the world that he would not have gotten otherwise

• Check your facts dude. I have never said "this affliction has been good" for my son. You have crossed the line here in trolling. I feel nothing but disgust that you would try to twist what I did say about my sick son to further your agenda. You are nothing but a pathetic troll and I will have nothing more to do with you. The ToS prohibits me from speaking my mind openly.
  
  
  End of conversation.​

 

[Willamena]

You can't have it both ways. Either your son's disease is not a bad thing or it is.

But he can have it both ways. So can you, and each of us.

 

[ChristineES]

well, let's see.
faith causes division; "my god is real, yours is not"
faith causes hate; "homosexuality is evil"
faith causes ignorance; "slavery is ordained by god"
faith causes fear; " i have to believe, otherwise, i will go to hell"
faith causes injustices; slavery, anti same sex marriage, anti bi-racial marriages, sexism, honor killings, genital mutilation

it's not so much the faith i am against, it's is what it creates...

so of course i have to speak out against it, because it affects my world.

Oh, honestly! I never said any of those things. You are generalizing all people of faith. You are only talking of the Abraham religions which could be an insult to the faiths that have nothing to do with Abraham, including Hinduism, Paganism, Zeus, etc. Not all people who follow the Abraham religions think that way, either. But what does that have to do with non-faith have or not having assertion, anyway?

 

[Beaudreaux]

Check your facts dude. I have never said "this affliction has been good" for my son. You have crossed the line here in trolling. I feel nothing but disgust that you would try to twist what I did say about my sick son to further your agenda. You are nothing but a pathetic troll and I will have nothing more to do with you. The ToS prohibits me from speaking my mind openly.

End of conversation.​

Well, not that you'll see this since you just sent me a message called "Welcome to the Ignore List" (perhaps your religion designation of "Tolerance" should be changed, or you should at least look up the word) but I want to be clear that I was not twisting your words. Here they are with emphasis added.

Let me tell you about my son, Harrison, who is right now in the hospital. ...My son is intent on trying to assign blame. Was it something he did? Could it be genetics? Maybe it's God punishing him for something he did or didn't do. In my mind it's none of those things, but his preoccupation seems to be making him rather morose. But today he had an epiphany about his struggles: Its making him tougher mentally. He has learned to become an effective advocate for himself and that's a major break through in his maturity. He also came to the conclusion that it rains on the just and the unjust alike. This sickness is a part of his physical humanity. How he deals with it is part of his spiritual humanity.

People often try to excuse God's inaction when it comes to the sick and suffering by claiming that suffering is actually good for people. it sounded like that's what you were doing and I was trying to point that out to you. Apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Beaudreaux]

But he can have it both ways. So can you, and each of us.

That's nothing more than your opinion. It has no objective truth value.

 

[ChristineES]

That's nothing more than your opinion. It has no objective truth value.

And the same can be said of this. :shout

 

[Beaudreaux]

And the same can be said of this. :shout

True....or IS it?...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Oh, honestly! I never said any of those things. You are generalizing all people of faith.

Is this a new tactic by a few atheists? They think it's OK to twist our words to mean something we didn't say, just to justify their atheism? Jayhawker would be more upset than I am right now at the intellectual dishonesty displayed here.

The real problem? They don't even realize how pathetic this is! This is their intellectual compromise for their faith, but they can't even see it.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Is this a new tactic by a few atheists? They think it's OK to twist our words to mean something we didn't say, just to justify their atheism? Jayhawker would be more upset than I am right now at the intellectual dishonesty displayed here.

The real problem? They don't even realize how pathetic this is! This is their intellectual compromise for their faith, but they can't even see it.

Poor Pete always seems to be having his words twisted.

Christine, I don't think he was saying that you say those things, but you cannot deny that those things do spring from the faith others have.