Your biggest intellectual compromise for faith

[Beaudreaux]

wow that was very presumptious I dont believe that thiests ever have to, any comprimaise ive seen has only been due to a lack of education rather than the fact that there is no answer.

Although...rereading your post, it seems that you are claiming you have all the answers. Is that so?

 

[tarasan]

Although...rereading your post, it seems that you are claiming you have all the answers. Is that so?

I think your reading into my post a little bit I dont think I have all the answers I just dont think we have to do summersaults to defend our faith,

 

[Beaudreaux]

I think your reading into my post a little bit I dont think I have all the answers I just dont think we have to do summersaults to defend our faith,

For me, one of the biggest compromises was trying to understand why almighty God, who IS love, would allow so much needless pain and suffering. To deal with it, I had to make ridiculous assertions like "maybe pain and suffering isn't a bad thing" or "Maybe God isn't almighty" or "maybe the rules don't apply to God". Finally I couldn't do it anymore.

How did you deal with that without compromising your intellect?

 

[tarasan]

For me, one of the biggest compromises was trying to understand why almighty God, who IS love, would allow so much needless pain and suffering. To deal with it, I had to make ridiculous assertions like "maybe pain and suffering isn't a bad thing" or "Maybe God isn't almighty" or "maybe the rules don't apply to God". Finally I couldn't do it anymore.

How did you deal with that without compromising your intellect?

I thought about it and looked up apologetics to see if they had come to any conclusions as of yet to the problem of evil which thankfully they had, at least in part.

There reasoning is that the statement is rather presumptious, I mean you have no idea if God has a good reason to allow pain and suffering your just assuming that he doesnt. So unless I can come up with a good reason as to why God couldnt have a good reason for allowing pain and suffering, then my claim is Bogus. I havnt been able to come with one yet, how about you?

Unfortuantely however there is also the emotional side of that arguement that seems to be forever present, which is to be expected of course, and the only answer I can give to that is that God didnt just leave us in our pain and misery, he came down and suffered with us and then Died for our sins so that things ultimately could be made right.

so how is my state when it comes to intellectual backfilps?

 

[Magic Man]

I thought about it and looked up apologetics to see if they had come to any conclusions as of yet to the problem of evil which thankfully they had, at least in part.

There reasoning is that the statement is rather presumptious, I mean you have no idea if God has a good reason to allow pain and suffering your just assuming that he doesnt. So unless I can come up with a good reason as to why God couldnt have a good reason for allowing pain and suffering, then my claim is Bogus. I havnt been able to come with one yet, how about you?

How about the fact that God can do anything? Do you believe God is omnipotent? If he can do anything, there is no need for suffering and pain.

so how is my state when it comes to intellectual backfilps?

I'd say you're backflipping away.

 

[tarasan]

How about the fact that God can do anything? Do you believe God is omnipotent? If he can do anything, there is no need for suffering and pain.



I'd say you're backflipping away.

remeber you are the one who is making the claim you have give me reasons why.

also my response was designed for the omnipotience/omnibenelovence combo that I thought you were using.

ultiamtely God may believe that experience of suffering is benefical or have some other reason for allowing it, unless you can show show how this is impossible then you point is mute.

remeber your the one making the claim so your the one who has to provide evidence/explanation

 

[Willamena]

How about the fact that God can do anything? Do you believe God is omnipotent? If he can do anything, there is no need for suffering and pain.

How about the fact that anything done is God's work? Both use grammar to present a Smaller Picture that conveniently overlooks The Big Picture, which is that omnipotence is simply "all-powerful".

 

[tarasan]

How about the fact that anything done is God's work? Both use grammar to present a Smaller Picture that conveniently overlooks The Big Picture, which is that omniscience is simply "all-powerful".

actually omiscience is all knowing, omnipotence is all powerful.

 

[Willamena]

actually omiscience is all knowing, omnipotence is all powerful.

Thanks. It's too early in the morning for me.

 

[tarasan]

Thanks. It's too early in the morning for me.

those dam omnis so confusing

 

[angellous_evangellous]

remeber you are the one who is making the claim you have give me reasons why.

:clap

 

[Magic Man]

remeber you are the one who is making the claim you have give me reasons why.

also my response was designed for the omnipotience/omnibenelovence combo that I thought you were using.

ultiamtely God may believe that experience of suffering is benefical or have some other reason for allowing it, unless you can show show how this is impossible then you point is mute.

remeber your the one making the claim so your the one who has to provide evidence/explanation

It's very simple. If God is omnipotent, as you say, he could make it so that we don't have to suffer or feel pain in order to improve ourselves. When I have a kid, if given the following options:

1) Your kid goes through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.
2) Your kid doesn't go through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.

I'll take option 2. God has the power to make either one happen, but he chooses to go with option 1.

To try to justify that, you have to do intellectual backflips.

 

[Willamena]

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time to every purpose under Heaven

 

[tarasan]

It's very simple. If God is omnipotent, as you say, he could make it so that we don't have to suffer or feel pain in order to improve ourselves. When I have a kid, if given the following options:

1) Your kid goes through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.
2) Your kid doesn't go through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.

I'll take option 2. God has the power to make either one happen, but he chooses to go with option 1.

To try to justify that, you have to do intellectual backflips.

it doesnt have to be just improving, yourself it could be down to purely experience, understanding a world run by ourselvse, anything.

not that im taking that statement as it is cause it sounds rather silly, God would have to force you and comprise your free will to make number two possible, forcing you to be nice. If God wants you to have free will then he must use situations rather than force to adapt us.

ultiamtely in Order to prove my statement that those two omnis arnt mutulally exclusibe you must show how there can no be good reason, of course you must do this without violating either one of the omnis and you were very close that time.

 

[Willamena]

It's very simple. If God is omnipotent, as you say, he could make it so that we don't have to suffer or feel pain in order to improve ourselves. When I have a kid, if given the following options:

1) Your kid goes through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.
2) Your kid doesn't go through a lot of pain and suffering, but turns out to be a great person who helps others and improves the world around him.

I'll take option 2. God has the power to make either one happen, but he chooses to go with option 1.

To try to justify that, you have to do intellectual backflips.

What about option 3: "Your kid grows up a wimp and becomes a serial killer, going on a massive killing spree in Los Angeles, ending in him being riddled with bullets on a busy freeway"?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time to every purpose under Heaven

:disco:


To everything
There is a sneezin'
And a thyme for every porpise under eleven

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

it doesnt have to be just improving, yourself it could be down to purely experience, understanding a world run by ourselvse, anything.

not that im taking that statement as it is cause it sounds rather silly, God would have to force you and comprise your free will to make number two possible, forcing you to be nice. If God wants you to have free will then he must use situations rather than force to adapt us.

Unless we're talking about logical impossibilities like square circles, phrases in the form "God must ..." or "God can't ..." are incompatible with the idea of an omnipotent god.

Whatever we're talking about, an omnipotent god can do it; that's the whole meaning of omnipotence.

Edit: is there free will in Heaven?

 

[tarasan]

Unless we're talking about logical impossibilities like square circles, phrases in the form "God must ..." or "God can't ..." are incompatible with the idea of an omnipotent god.

Whatever we're talking about, an omnipotent god can do it; that's the whole meaning of omnipotence.

Edit: is there free will in Heaven?

you should look up perfect being being theology because an omnipotient God cant do two things, he cant fail and he cant be imperfect. heck the statement can do anything anything implies that he cant fail at doing anything.

 

[waitasec]

But when did I declare that MY GOD was The Only God? I don't recall ever saying that- here are anywhere else. Even when I first became a follower of Jesus (almost 27 years ago), I wondered if all Gods were the same one. My beliefs have gotten my into trouble with other Christians.
Are you assuming that because I am a Christian that I have identical beliefs to everyone else? No one fits into neat little boxes. And there are other Christians who believe the same as I do- I have met them and spoken to them. Even Billy Graham had asserted a few years ago that he no longer was convinced that other faiths were wrong (made some Christians angry).

do you believe the bible is the infallible WORD of god?
do you believe the only way to god is through jesus?

well, let's see.
faith causes division; "my god is real, yours is not"
faith causes hate; "homosexuality is evil"
faith causes ignorance; "slavery is ordained by god"
faith causes fear; " i have to believe, otherwise, i will go to hell"
faith causes injustices; slavery, anti same sex marriage, anti bi-racial marriages, sexism, honor killings, genital mutilation

it's not so much the faith i am against, it's is what it creates...

so of course i have to speak out against it, because it affects my world.

you cannot deny that those things do spring from the faith others have.

have you looked at the bible belt lately?
the mentality there is bathed in ignorance and people USE their religion to justify their bigotry and hate, would you agree?
just recently the residents in birmingham alabama, were voting to close down foreign restaurants...this a prime example of the type of mentality that allows religion to fester in these ignorant minds

so yes, these people have intellectually compromised themselves for the sake of their so-called faith.

 

[Willamena]

Unless we're talking about logical impossibilities like square circles, phrases in the form "God must ..." or "God can't ..." are incompatible with the idea of an omnipotent god.

Frankly, so are phrases in the form of "God could ..." or "God can ..."

Whatever we're talking about, an omnipotent god can do it; that's the whole meaning of omnipotence.

That's one interpretation.