Your religion's "feminine principle" - debate the necessity of it's inclusion in religious teachings

[Alceste]

I've been curious about these very things for a while, too. But I'd like to explore with Christian and Muslim women where do they find their femininity within their own traditions. I'd rather not allow a man to define my own worth, and since I've interpreted the Abrahamic religions (which mostly seem extremely masculine) to define my values, roles, and importance for me, it tends to lead me away from it, too.

However, this is why I would very much like to hear more input from women of the Abrahamic religions in this discussion. In fact, I actually yearn for it.

I will see if I can round up Dallas.

In the mean time, I can give you the impression I get from my best friend, who is a devout Christian who has a close personal relationship with her god. The fact that the god is "male" seems incidental and doesn't bother her. While she seems to think it is a given that the appropriate pronoun for god is masculine, her god clearly speaks to my friend with her own voice. (Not surprising if the voice of "god", when we hear it, is always a deep, intuitive voice of our own, as I believe). Because of this, the personality of her god is androgynous. It encompasses both masculine and feminine principles. Caring, guidance, protection, love, compassion etc.

IMO, the reason she is not bothered by the lack of the sacred female in her religion is that she is extremely close to her actual father, and doesn't get on well with her mum at all. (Whereas I am the opposite, which might also explain my distaste for patriarchal theology.)

I have grilled her extensively on the whole religion thing, since I feel she is limiting herself. She wants to live in the shadow of a man, support him, bear him children, be loved and protected by him, bla bla bla. The tragedy of this is that she is exceptionally intelligent, strong and capable herself and she is unlikely to find a man she can feel properly inferior to. Since her partner must be stronger and more capable than she is in order for her to achieve the status her religion and experience has taught her to desire, she has a lot of relationship trouble.

Anyway, enough armchair psychoanalysis of my friend. I meant to say it's obvious her beliefs are deeply valued and she doesn't feel at all oppressed by them, and I think this is because her god is asexual. When he's not providing love and mercy (like a mother would), he is providing protection and instruction (like a father would).

For me, I so far look to Khandro Rinpoche, Venerable Robina Courtin (whom I have met and remain in contact with), Venerable Sangye Khadro and Pema Chodron. These are women who are erudite and very passionate about what they teach, and they do a remarkable job in their scholarship. Robina and I even had a great chat once about PMS and the Tibetan Buddhist POV of it (which seemed very female about it's understandings of it and it's transformative power).

I will follow those links later on. Thanks. Personally, I look to my friends (including the one described above) and the women I'm descended from, and when I stumble across an interesting piece of female history I devour it and add it to the bigger picture that has begun to form.

The thing is, I didn't realise until I left public school and started my own life that there had ever been anything missing. And when I finally figured it out, I was seriously ****** off. I mean seriously. My 12 years of acute boredom in school could have been spiced up some if any of the crap I had to learn had anything to do with me. (OK, well I really liked math, english and the arts. It was mostly history, religion, philosophy and science that bored me.)

I'm not so ****** off now, although I think it's a very serious problem that we don't teach our daughters anything about themselves and what they can acheive, as we do our sons.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

:highfive: <----from me to you, Alceste.

Here's something pretty cool in our tradition: Bhikuni Laksmi, a nun, received a very important transmission when she was sick. She received it from Avalokiteshvara as for use during a time for fasting. This mantra/prayer has been passed down, and is still used to this day.

See here.

 

[DallasApple]

Well...God is male and female..as far as Im concerned..We are all in His image..(man kind)

I like to think of the female aspect of God as jewels in Gods crown..We are the sparkle..

Adam was alone and it was NOT good..(to me not good means he wouldnt have survived or thrived)...

I believe we the females are Ezer Kenegdo... an opposite but equal force..to males..a life saving force...

We are the daughters...no "more" or no "less" than the sons...

Having said that..I do more so identify Gods voice as a "male"...I dont know why...Im sure its cultural influences(but its sort of booming and "authorative as in "orders(of course for my protection))...And I identify "soothing" and "nurturing" with female..(soft...and flowing and warm) but just as influencial...and just as "protective"(and God has a woman in Him)

Both are shaping...one can not exist without the other...Not for long..

 

[DallasApple]

And thanks Alceste for inviting me to comment..Im flattered...

Love

Dallas

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thanks so much for returning here, Lana. :hug: You seriously rock.

I very much like this complementary force that is often spoken of, much like the dynamics of yin/yang. Lana, do you get this feeling from personal prayer moments, from teachings from your church, from the Bible? Or all three or none? I very much would like to hear how you come to these conclusions (which are delightful).

 

[DallasApple]

Thanks so much for returning here, Lana. :hug: You seriously rock.

I very much like this complementary force that is often spoken of, much like the dynamics of yin/yang. Lana, do you get this feeling from personal prayer moments, from teachings from your church, from the Bible? Or all three or none? I very much would like to hear how you come to these conclusions (which are delightful).

So far no"church" gave me that "feeling" as a "woman" in specific..Just as Gods child(in general Im equal)......Reading parts of the Bible..have helped..but also done damage or "confused me"...so both on that one..

Its personal ...mostly..in prayer..In observation of whats going on here..I mean take a look around...Men and children need the "female"..We are special and unique..We have a high place ..No less than male..And no greater..But none the less a life saving force..

And we "sparkle"...

We are a powerful force..God loves me as much..He always has...

I guess ...I can say I just "know it"...(I'm sorry if thats a cop out...LOL)

Love

Lana

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So far no"church" gave me that "feeling" as a "woman" in specific..Just as Gods child(in general Im equal)......Reading parts of the Bible..have helped..but also done damage or "confused me"...so both on that one..

Its personal ...mostly..in prayer..In observation of whats going on here..I mean take a look around...Men and children need the "female"..We are special and unique..We have a high place ..No less than male..And no greater..But none the less a life saving force..

And we "sparkle"...

We are a powerful force..God loves me as much..He always has...

I guess ...I can say I just "know it"...(I'm sorry if thats a cop out...LOL)

Love

Lana

No no....no cop out, my love. I'm curious if you believe that the wisdom of female importance and empowerment is somehow inherent or obvious, and that it is replicated in nature all around us.

Women are the ones who birth us, who tend to feed us, nurture us, and tend to dominate the care-giving roles. Is this perhaps all the evidence that we need? How much ought to be reflected in religious doctrine?

I know this is just my personal opinion, but I seek more in the written word than just knowing that I carried two humans in my uterus and gave birth to them. But that's just me.

BTW, I like the "sparkle" bit. I wonder if it is pleasing to say that my brain sparkles, too. LOL

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Thanks, Don. Shakti rocks, personally. I also have to really give it up to Kali. :bow:

Another question, since I'm just too darn curious for my own good. When I see an emphasis on maintaining or creating balance, what measure of autonomy does a masculine godhead or a feminine godhead have? When there are purely autonomous male gods that create the universe, the heavens and the hells, and that do not have use for a female force for these creations............OR we have goddess traditions that incorporate feelings of protective and all-nurturing Mother Earth/Milky Way Galaxy that only fleetingly use the male potency for it's own creation stories........how do we ensure there is a balance? And how do we ensure each psyche has it's own independent measure of influence in our own lives?

M/F forms of Godhead have complete control over themselves, but i must say, i really do not know how i can elaborate on the first question, ill think about it some more and get back to you on that one, Mystic.

Male and female God(esses) are equal in all ways. If and when they created, they would have played an equal part. It seems more likely, to me, that different aspects of life were created by male and female. What women are more naturally like, what women relate to more, is probably to have been created by a femenin force. Things that men relate to, a masculin force must be at work.

Balance is required for us to exist as a peaceful society (or as close as we can get ) Hinduism has generally not ventured outside of our world, Earth is always reffered to as Mother Earth. It has worked that way with cows too, what sustains is our mother. Because when we were very young we lived on our mothers breast milk. What keeps us alive is sacred. Our earth which provides us with everything is always considered as our mother.

Getting each phsyche to be balanced...Well! That is a little tough. We are complicated beings, some follow certain mindsets, in this case mostly sexists (works both ways) I believe, that this simply accumulates you karma, and there is a time when the debt of following that must be paid, must be corrected. Karma restores all balance. For thinking all women are dogs (not saying i do ) it is a possible that something may happen in life, something extreme to change that. It is a simple consequence of not being balance.

Balance is a natural thing, it may seem like there is no balance in the world at the moment, but it is a personal thing. Balance is always, eventually restored.

A femenine force is essential. Nothing can exist without it.

Nice thread Mystic!

 

[Alceste]

And thanks Alceste for inviting me to comment..Im flattered...

Love

Dallas

I'm glad you came. When it comes to Christian feedback from (what I consider to be) a feminine perspective, IMO you are the resident expert. You are strong in your faith and you think for yourself. Your relationship with god/Christ is between you and him. That's something that strikes me as very womanly.

 

[Alceste]

Male and female God(esses) are equal in all ways. If and when they created, they would have played an equal part. It seems more likely, to me, that different aspects of life were created by male and female. What women are more naturally like, what women relate to more, is probably to have been created by a femenin force. Things that men relate to, a masculin force must be at work.

A femenine force is essential. Nothing can exist without it.

Nice thread Mystic!

Woot! I'm glad to hear that's how things work, since I'm pretty ignorant about Hinduism. I appropriated Sarasvati because of what she represents, and have images of her everywhere, but to be honest that's the only Hindu god I know anything about. What you're saying makes me feel like I chose well. I think she appealed to me because (as far as I know) she represents learning, arts and music. In my culture, these are all considered to be male pursuits. (Men write "music" while women write "songs". Men make "art" while women make "crafts".) Add that to the list of the cultural things I find frustrating as a woman, since learning, music and art are things I'm exceptionally good at.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Woot! I'm glad to hear that's how things work, since I'm pretty ignorant about Hinduism. I appropriated Sarasvati because of what she represents, and have images of her everywhere, but to be honest that's the only Hindu god I know anything about. What you're saying makes me feel like I chose well. I think she appealed to me because (as far as I know) she represents learning, arts and music. In my culture, these are all considered to be male pursuits. (Men write "music" while women write "songs". Men make "art" while women make "crafts".) Add that to the list of the cultural things I find frustrating as a woman, since learning, music and art are things I'm exceptionally good at.

Saraswati is a exceptional Hindu Goddess. She brings things to man that are vital for life, possibly the most important. Without Saraswati I would not be able to understand God, since she has given me knowlege, the ability to find it out for myself.

Laxmi is another goddess too, she represents wealth, when i say wealth, that just doesen't mean money, wealth can come in many forms.

A very nice post, Alceste

 

[DallasApple]

No no....no cop out, my love. I'm curious if you believe that the wisdom of female importance and empowerment is somehow inherent or obvious, and that it is replicated in nature all around us.

Women are the ones who birth us, who tend to feed us, nurture us, and tend to dominate the care-giving roles. Is this perhaps all the evidence that we need? How much ought to be reflected in religious doctrine?

I know this is just my personal opinion, but I seek more in the written word than just knowing that I carried two humans in my uterus and gave birth to them. But that's just me.

BTW, I like the "sparkle" bit. I wonder if it is pleasing to say that my brain sparkles, too. LOL

I understand..I was influenced and was turned on to how I view women and what part of God we are by one book called Captivated..Staci Elderedge..She used the term we are jewels in Gods crown..She also didn't like the word "helpmeet"..She said what little girl runs aroudn saying I want to be a helpmeet when I grow up?..She said it sounds like hamburger helper or something..

She goes on to explain that word doesnt mean simply "helper'..Its a translation from two words..ezer kenegdo...I'll post a word study....

I'll will have to say..after learning that..and believing it because it makes absolute sense..We were not a second thought after Adam was created..I "felt' empowered and I could see it all around me..

I guess I will have to say my eyes were opened somewhat about myself and women in general after that...so single handedly that book did more for me than any other influence I had..


Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Word Study
EZER KENEGDO

Usages of 'ezer in the Old Testament show that in most cases God is an 'ezer to human beings, which calls to question if the word “helper” is a valid interpretation of 'ezer in any instance it is used. "Evidence indicates that the word 'ezer originally had two roots, each beginning with different guttural sounds. One meant “power” and the other “strength.” As time passed, the two guttural sounds merged, but the meanings remained the same. The article below by William Sulik explains this point quite well. He references R. David Freedman and Biblical Archaeology Review 9 [1983]: 56-58).

"She was to be his "helper"--at least that is how most of the translations have interpreted this word. A sample of the translations reads as follows:

‘I shall make a helper fit for him’ (RSV); ‘I will make a fitting helper for him’ (New Jewish Publication Society); ‘I will make an aid fit for him’ (AB); ‘I will make him a helpmate’ (JB); ‘I will make a suitable partner for him’ (NAB); ‘I will make him a helper comparable to him’ (NKJV).
​

However, the customary translation of the two words `ezer kenegdo as "helper fit is almost certainly wrong. Recently R. David Freedman has pointed out that the Hebrew word ezer is a combination of two roots: `-z-r, meaning "to rescue, to save," and g-z-r, meaning "to be strong." The difference between the two is the first letter in Hebrew. Today that letter is silent in Hebrew; but in ancient times, it was a guttural sound formed in the back of the throat. The “g” was a ghayyin, and it came to use the same Hebrew symbol as the other sound, `ayin. But the fact that they were pronounced differently is clear from such place names which preserve the “g” sound, such as Gaza or Gomorrah. Some Semitic languages distinguished between these two signs and others did not. For example, Ugaritic did make a distinction between the `ayin and the ghayyin; Hebrew did not. (R. David Freedman, "Woman, a Power Equal to a Man," Biblical Archaeology Review 9 [1983]: 56-58).

It would appear that sometime around 1500 B.C., these two signs began to be represented by one sign in Phoenician. Consequently, the two “phonemes” merged into one “grapheme.” What had been two different roots merged into one, much as in English the one word “fast” can refer to a person's speed, abstinence from food, his or her slyness in a "fast deal," or the adamant way in which someone holds "fast" to positions. The noun `ezer occurs twenty-one times in the Old Testament. In many of the passages, it is used in parallelism to words that clearly denote strength or power. Some examples are:

”There is none like the God of Jeshurun, The Rider of the Heavens in your strength (`-z-r), and on the clouds in his majesty.” (Deut. 33:26, [author's] translation)
"Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the Lord? He is the shield of your strength (`-z-r) and the sword of your majesty." (Deut. 33:29, [author's] translation)
​

The case that begins to build is that we can be sure that `ezer means "strength" or "power" whenever it is used in parallelism with words for majesty or other words for power such as `oz or `uzzo. In fact, the presence of two names for one king, Azariah and Uzziah, both referring to God's strength, makes it abundantly clear that the root `ezer meaning "strength" was known in Hebrew.

Therefore, could we conclude that Genesis 2:18 be translated as "I will make a power [or strength] corresponding to man." Freedman even suggests on the basis of later Hebrew that the second word in the Hebrew expression found in this verse should be rendered equal to him. If so, then God makes for the man a woman fully his equal and fully his match. In this way, the man's loneliness will be assuaged.

The same line of reasoning occurs with the apostle Paul, who urged in 1 Corinthians 11:10, "For this reason, a woman must have power [or authority] on her head [that is to say, invested in her]."

This line of reasoning, which stresses full equality, is continued in Genesis 2:23 where Adam says of Eve, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man." The idiomatic sense of this phrase "bone of my bones" is a "very close relative" to "one of us" or in effect "our equal."

The woman was never meant to be an assistant or "helpmate" to the man. The word “mate” slipped into English since it was so close to the Old English word “meet,” which means "fit to" or "corresponding to" the man which comes from the phrase that likely means "equal to."

What God had intended, then, was to make a "power" or "strength" for the man who would in every way "correspond to him" or even "be his equal.""

The Torah Study for Reform Jews says, “From the time of creation, relationships between spouses have at times been adversarial. In Genesis 2:18, God calls woman an ezer kenegdo, a "helper against him." The great commentator Rashi takes the term literally to make a wonderful point: "If he [Adam] is worthy, [she will be] a help [ezer]. If he is not worthy [she will be] against him [kenegdo] for strife." This Jewish study also described man and woman facing each other with arms raised holding an arch between them, giving a beautiful picture of equal responsibility


Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

ezer kenegdo

Source...for the above word study..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

I would further like add..When I said I just "know it"...Im certainly not some sort of guru....And honestly here is what it is..As a child..a young girl..I never felt "less" important than men/boys..I had a sense of self worth and value..And that I just "knew"..Well and obviously where I was born helped..Im sure had I been born in a world where I was told I was second class..that wouldnt have been the case...

Anyway..as I got older..it was in fact some soicetal views/portrayals of woman..and attitude of women..some bad life expereinces...and in fact sadly..after getting more int othe Bible and not understandign that I felt jipped.Like Aleceste..I was never sorry I was born a female..But I was ****** off that seemingly God created me to just "help out Adam"..and I was "under him'...

So my 'innocence" as a young girl.."knwoing' I was important and "equal"..Was robbed from me by mostly society..and me buying into that lie...

But I didnt give up...I kept searching and reclaimed the truth...What I 'knew"..

I guess thats what it is..You have to distinquish what is a lie..from the truth..and that comes from your heart..

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Jesus And Women

Jesus and Women..

Love

Dallas

 

[Darkwater]

Freya is female principal Godess,very much revered & loved....she has always watched over me.As far as I have gathered she is complete & never been *divided*,as such she is everything from say the Shekinah down to maiden.

Hecate is there also,as well as the Valkyre or fates.All gods & godess shall be judged same as us.

Mata Kali is similar to Lady Sehkmet(Egyptian),great healers which comes hand in hand with being great destroyer...As Egypt is not of the Hindu,a somewhat patriachal society watered her down from wild lioness,to Lady Bast(smaller & with jewellry,very hard work actually ) to Cybelle/Kybil,a hittite/roman perversion popular prior to *christianity" as evidenced by the Temple of Kybil lying under St Peter's Square in Vatican City.

Lady Sehkmet has been very poorly treated.

 

[tomspug]

While I can't speak for them personally, I am under the impression that every woman in our marriage group find the Biblical role of a woman to be both liberating and invigorating.

Aye, caramba! I need to poll my wife and have a little more free time before I can elaborate... I SHALL RETURN!

 

[DallasApple]

Aye, caramba! I need to poll my wife and have a little more free time before I can elaborate... I SHALL RETURN!

I think things are getting better..But there is no denying..the way women were viewed in society during the time the Bible was written would certainly not make a woman feel invigorated let alone liberated..

But I will admit..It depends on who you are "hanging out" with..And what they focus on and how they interpret and if they consider the times ....

I've met the men..that cling and highlight the words.."head" and "authority" over the wife(the ultimate authority the final say)...And the infamous "submission" stance..As well as they demand "respect" and that is with zero conditions..Speaking quietly..Restricted from teaching over a man...etc..

Then they top that off with her body is his..and its supposed to be O.K because his body is hers...I have seen men actually use that scripture to call their wife in rebellion against God because she over eats and is too fat..And since she is supposed to treat her body as if it was his..He doesnt want his body to be "abused" with fat ..They will use this scripture to demand sex as well..Along with Pauls statement to not refuse one another unless for prayer or fasting..Then the wife is defrauding him..

Even the Proverbs 31 woman(thats what I call her)..that should be an encouragement to women..including the husbands part where he called her blessed and praised her..and he had the respect of the community in large part due to her..as well as her children stood up and admired her..all that she did..all that she accomplished being faithful to God...

There are men out there..(Im not kidding you)... who will tell you that she was able to be that kind of woman because AFTER she proved to her husband he could trust her..He "allowed" her to go out and sell her goods..he "allowed" her to make decisions concerning how to spend the money..He after all was the head of the household and she was acting on HIS authority with HIS permission because she had EARNED his trust and he didnt have to worry about her misusing the authority that he had designated to her.

Love

Dallas

 

[DallasApple]

Alceste..its your fault!! You got me on a roll..

Mystic I wanted to add..You aksed how I came to my conlusions/views..I must not forget to mention that I have been counseled by other women..Wiser than me..that have influenced me..Faithful women of God.. "strong" women...who dont put up with crap!!! LOL!!!!

Love

Dallas