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Your religious beliefs are probably wrong

idea

Question Everything
Our beliefs and understanding of everything is incomplete and therefore wrong... the twist at the end of the movie, there is always some new piece of information that can pop up and change everything, so why believe anything at all? I suppose because it makes for a happier life.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Do you have anything that doesn't involve people starring at the sun?

Well, sure. But, again, I will leave you with just one.

------------------------------------------------------

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico. In 1531 a peasant, Juan Diego, receiving apparitions of the Virgin Mary was instructed to visit the local bishop with a message. He kept being refused until Our Lady told him to pick some roses and deliver them in his cloak or tilma. Roses do not bloom in December, supposedly, but there they were and when Juan unveiled his tilma to show the bishop the roses fell to the ground and the miraculous image of Our Lady was imbedded on his cloak. 500 years later, it remains one of the greatest mysteries in world history, despite all our skeptics who are sure they have it all accounted for.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been the subject of numerous and extensive scientific investigations since 1751 and none of the results offered any sound scientific explanation which defies all human reasoning as it continues to baffle experts.

The "tilma" (a kind of cloak worn by native Mexicans) of Juan Diego that bears the miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey cactus fiber which usually lasts no more than 20 to 30 years, and yet the fabric has maintained its structural integrity - without cracking or fading, or any sign of deterioration for nearly 500 years. [Note: Some objectors claim it is made from hemp not cactus, but that charge is highly debatable. Still it does not discredit all of the other inexplicable qualities of this image in any way.]

There is no explanation offered by NASA scientists on how the image was imprinted on the Tilma. There are no brush strokes, or sketch marks on it.

The colors actually float above the surface of the tilma at a distance of 3/10th of a millimeter (1/100th of an inch), without touching it. When examined less than 10 inches of the image, one can only see the maguey cloth; the colors totally disappear.

In 1936, biochemist Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, analyzed a sample of the fabric and ascertained that the pigments used were from no known source; whether natural, animal, mineral, or vegetable.

On May 7, 1979, Americans Dr. Philip Serna Callahan, a biophysicist at the University of Florida and an expert in infrared photography photographed the image under infrared light and scanned at very high resolutions. He discovered that portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches, or corrections, and no visible brush strokes or sizing used to render the surface smooth, no protective varnish covering the image to protect its surface.

Scientists have been unable to find any trace of paint residue or dye of any sort on the Image and yet the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance. The quality of the pigments used for the pink dress, the blue veil, the face and the hands, or the permanence of the colors, or the vividness of the colors after several centuries, during which they ordinarily should have deteriorated, defy all scientific reasoning.

The Image still retains its original colors, despite being unprotected by any covering during the first 100 years of exposure. According to the specialists of Kodak Corporation in Mexico, the Image is smooth and bears more resemblance to a color photograph than anything else.

Many who have scientifically examined the image of Our Lady over the centuries confess that its properties are absolutely unique and so inexplicable in human terms that the image can only be supernatural. 8 million indigenous Mexican people are baptized within 10 years of the images appearance.

When asked who she was Mary responded “Call me and call my image Santa Maria de Guadalupe". It's believed that the word Guadalupe was actually a Spanish mis-translation of the local Aztec dialect. The word that Mary probably used was Coatlallope which means "one who treads on snakes"!

The web sites are endless on this subject. Here is but one. http://infallible-catholic.blogspot....r-lady-of.html
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I don't think you have a clue what "freethinking" means.

when we are free to think and express our thoughts to others. We are social animals and being allowed to share thought is key.

do you think atheism, would have done so well in USSR, communist China, N Korea under freedom?
 

idea

Question Everything
[QUOTE="Guy Threepwood, post: 4088997, member: 55684].

do you think atheism, would have done so well in USSR, communist China, N Korea under freedom?[/QUOTE]

It is interesting that atheism goes hand-in-hand with oppressive regimes.
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
when we are free to think and express our thoughts to others. We are social animals and being allowed to share thought is key.

do you think atheism, would have done so well in USSR, communist China, N Korea under freedom?

That's not freethinking. By definition, freethought is "a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, or other dogmas."
 
Well, sure. But, again, I will leave you with just one.

------------------------------------------------------

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico. In 1531 a peasant, Juan Diego, receiving apparitions of the Virgin Mary was instructed to visit the local bishop with a message. He kept being refused until Our Lady told him to pick some roses and deliver them in his cloak or tilma. Roses do not bloom in December, supposedly, but there they were and when Juan unveiled his tilma to show the bishop the roses fell to the ground and the miraculous image of Our Lady was imbedded on his cloak. 500 years later, it remains one of the greatest mysteries in world history, despite all our skeptics who are sure they have it all accounted for.

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been the subject of numerous and extensive scientific investigations since 1751 and none of the results offered any sound scientific explanation which defies all human reasoning as it continues to baffle experts.

The "tilma" (a kind of cloak worn by native Mexicans) of Juan Diego that bears the miraculous Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a coarse fabric made from the threads of the maguey cactus fiber which usually lasts no more than 20 to 30 years, and yet the fabric has maintained its structural integrity - without cracking or fading, or any sign of deterioration for nearly 500 years. [Note: Some objectors claim it is made from hemp not cactus, but that charge is highly debatable. Still it does not discredit all of the other inexplicable qualities of this image in any way.]

There is no explanation offered by NASA scientists on how the image was imprinted on the Tilma. There are no brush strokes, or sketch marks on it.

The colors actually float above the surface of the tilma at a distance of 3/10th of a millimeter (1/100th of an inch), without touching it. When examined less than 10 inches of the image, one can only see the maguey cloth; the colors totally disappear.

In 1936, biochemist Richard Kuhn, a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry, analyzed a sample of the fabric and ascertained that the pigments used were from no known source; whether natural, animal, mineral, or vegetable.

On May 7, 1979, Americans Dr. Philip Serna Callahan, a biophysicist at the University of Florida and an expert in infrared photography photographed the image under infrared light and scanned at very high resolutions. He discovered that portions of the face, hands, robe, and mantle had been painted in one step, with no sketches, or corrections, and no visible brush strokes or sizing used to render the surface smooth, no protective varnish covering the image to protect its surface.

Scientists have been unable to find any trace of paint residue or dye of any sort on the Image and yet the colors maintain their luminosity and brilliance. The quality of the pigments used for the pink dress, the blue veil, the face and the hands, or the permanence of the colors, or the vividness of the colors after several centuries, during which they ordinarily should have deteriorated, defy all scientific reasoning.

The Image still retains its original colors, despite being unprotected by any covering during the first 100 years of exposure. According to the specialists of Kodak Corporation in Mexico, the Image is smooth and bears more resemblance to a color photograph than anything else.

Many who have scientifically examined the image of Our Lady over the centuries confess that its properties are absolutely unique and so inexplicable in human terms that the image can only be supernatural. 8 million indigenous Mexican people are baptized within 10 years of the images appearance.

When asked who she was Mary responded “Call me and call my image Santa Maria de Guadalupe". It's believed that the word Guadalupe was actually a Spanish mis-translation of the local Aztec dialect. The word that Mary probably used was Coatlallope which means "one who treads on snakes"!

The web sites are endless on this subject. Here is but one. http://infallible-catholic.blogspot....r-lady-of.html

Not really sold on this one. How do we know it is even the same painting after all this time? According to wiki the painting changed at one point, the crown on Mary's head was gone. A painter admitted on his deathbed that he was asked to remove the crown from the painting. Also, very few people have been allowed to inspect the painting. Sorry, just seems dubious to me.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
That's not freethinking. By definition, freethought is "a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, or other dogmas."

I agree entirely, socialist atheist regimes would come under authority.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Southern California is primarily conservative, it's once you get to northern California that you get the crazy liberals. According to surveys, between 20-25% of atheists are conservative.

Yeah it's a big place, so it's always difficult to generalize, I know people, family, in San Diego who identify as liberals, but have attitudes on immigration that make me look like a lefty...
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Yeah it's a big place, so it's always difficult to generalize, I know people, family, in San Diego who identify as liberals, but have attitudes on immigration that make me look like a lefty...

Orange County, where I grew up, is heavily conservative. It depends on where you go, I guess, but I'm sure that's true for just about everywhere.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Orange County, where I grew up, is heavily conservative. It depends on where you go, I guess, but I'm sure that's true for just about everywhere.

Likewise I lived a long time in a conservative county of a liberal state- Illinois.. shame our votes don't count..
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
Likewise I lived a long time in a conservative county of a liberal state- Illinois.. shame our votes don't count..

Agreed. Used to do a podcast with a really nice conservative atheist who lives in Illinois. I was born just outside Chicago, in fact.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Where did everything come from? at least we know what currently exists. The difference between what is alive, and what is not alive - self-awareness, free will, the ability to act and not just be acted upon - to me, spirit is the difference between what is alive and what is dead. To see spirits in what currently lives makes it easy for me to see spirits in the eternities too. What is the universe made of? Matter, energy, information, and intelligence/spirit. What currently exists has always, and will always exist I think.
This is just an assertion. Bacteria are alive and don't have self awareness or free will.

Ask a biologist to determine whether something is a live instead of a philosopher of theologian. A good example is the virus--it is in between alive and not alive as it misses key attributes that modern biologists define as living.

And where did everything come with? Who knows, but its unlikely religion magically has the answer.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Look at nature. It's trying to get life right by diversity. Maybe the same forces are in play when it comes to religion. Beliefs are right when they benefit believers.

An interesting point, though it depends on what one means by "right." One of the problems I'm noticing with this thread is that some are taking "right" to mean "factually true" according to some standard that the speaker happens to value. Some aren't thinking about "right" in terms of "useful or beneficial" or its other meanings that are more common in religions. This is part of why I found the OP absurd from the get go; the framing would make more sense to ask of the sciences, not of religions. And if we bothered to start assessing different sciences and different religions by "right" as it would make sense in their own contexts, we'd get quite an interesting picture, I'd wager.
 
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