• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Your religious beliefs are probably wrong

john2054

Member
This is a fallacy though. Beliefs in scientifically validated claims are basically right. Although no 100% certain, we can basically conclude that they are truth fro all intensive purposes. For instance, we can almost certainty conclude that a diode functions because of a PN junction in silicon. Same with all other scientific principles that have concrete applications. SO in other words I expect some of my beliefs are pretty much certainly right and some almost certainly wrong. There also also things I think are likely, but not certain, like there being some form of life out in the universe.
ive just read the above, and you know you certainly give a convincing pretension to knowledge? The question remains though is it really true? Is it really?!?!?? ps maths will get you so far, but for a convincing philosophy argument I prefer my ug ba attainment any day of the week!
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
If you look under the supernatural stuff, it is psychological in nature.

God, for example, is all caring, all loving as what's taught in Abrahamic faiths. As a being He says what is right and what is wrong.

Look beyond the pronouns and the emotions and you'll see that we are supported by the laws of nature. The emotions that give us fulfillment makes us feel better in our day to day activities.

With the pronouns, a lot of people feel they relate more to the laws of life when they personalize life as a person. When you do that, you can have a relationship with that person and know more about "him" by how you live and relate to others.

Heaven/hell is another psychological concept. In revelations it says there will be gold and jewels in heaven and fire in hell. These are earthly things in an unearthly "realm" or place. Human's personanification of what they believe is bad (fire) and good (gold). It's not universal; just another psychological thing that justifies the good and bad consequences of peoples actions.

The common denominators does not have to make up a religion. It's just life. You want to do good things so you change your life and be a new person (Christianity); you want to have a structure in your life and devote yourself to your goals and morals rather than move around from place to place without thinking (Muslim), you want to have peace of mind, be emotionally balance, have some wisdom rather than knowledge of how the world works, and live without having to justify everything you come across (Different sects of Buddhism)...all this is basic psychology.

I don't think it's a bad thing to want to personalize life, it just makes life more complicated to where people say "We can't know God; we're just human" or stuff like "the mystic law is profound and not easily understood."

Religion is just a practice of one's faith. A faith can be justified from a personal perspective. If you're looking for objective justification, there can't be any--religion is too personal.

Hope you understood all that.

--
That's right. You asked, why follow a particular religion. I believe religion is a practice of one's faith. So, why follow a faith--you don't have to. A faith can be practicing one's chosen morals and/or ones they have been raised. It doesn't have to be supernatural for it to be a religion.


So then why follow a particular religion? You said accept all the common denominators and use that. Fine, but that doesn't justify belief in a particular religions.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that your particular interpretations of what the correct common denominator is, nor do I think that all religions have common denominators besides some general supernatural stuff like a magical soul that is separate from the brain.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This is a fallacy though. Beliefs in scientifically validated claims are basically right. Although no 100% certain, we can basically conclude that they are truth fro all intensive purposes. For instance, we can almost certainty conclude that a diode functions because of a PN junction in silicon. Same with all other scientific principles that have concrete applications. SO in other words I expect some of my beliefs are pretty much certainly right and some almost certainly wrong. There also also things I think are likely, but not certain, like there being some form of life out in the universe.

Diodes go bad. Point being, your assumptions about scientific principles isn't going to make your electronic device function at this moment.

I understand there are "beliefs" we all rely on. We couldn't function otherwise. I just don't depend on them. I don't assume a diode is working as electronic theory says it should. That assumption may not be true at this moment. So I test it.

Electronic theory may change, make the old ideology obsolete. I know a few Engineers who run into problems because they rely what what has been true previously which is no longer true. The universe and our knowledge about it is constantly changing. Somethings may be true for a very long time but that's no guarantee it will be true forever.

Our beliefs just have to be true enough to work for us. As long as they keep working for us, great. When we find they no longer work, it's time to let go of what we previously accepted as truth.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Given that so many different religions exist, many of which are mutually exclusive, and most claim they contain the truth of reality, the odds aren't in your favor that you picked the right religion. This is based on pure statistical analysis, and that's assuming that one religion we have is actually correct.

Most religious beliefs corresponds with geography--a religion based on truth shouldn't depend on where you're born. Islam will obviously correspond with the middle east and Christianity can be frequently found in the States.

There have also been countless religious frauds that try to take advantage of people and make money/ manipulate people with religion. Even if a religion happened to be correct at some point, its very possible that respective religion has been polluted so much over time, like telephone, that the religion doesn't even resemble anything like what it started out as. For example the original teachings of Jesus Christ vs the modern catholic faith which includes the pope and hundreds of rituals, and the various Xian sects.

Its one thing to argue that a deism God exists as a kind of philosophical entity, but its another to show that there is an intervening God who cares about what we do with our genitals and what we do with our Sundays, and wants to have an individual relationship with people. Most of the arguments given by people of faiths are all identical to each other which I find to be an amusing reflection that there aren't many good arguments beyond those for deism.

As fo religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, even though I consider Buddhism to resemble more of a philosophy, I haven't seen any convincing evidence of reincarnation or multiple Gods.

What I glean from your post:

A lot of truth with some error is no better than no truth. Better to remain agnostic apparently.

Also, you seem to be implying none of us can know God and none of us can determine God has communicated truths to His creation.

Kind of leaves one free to do as he pleases, the easy way out and, again, what you seem to be implying.

FYI, the Catholic Church and its popes and all its traditions ( which you insinuate are self-serving man made ideas with no divine counsel or revelation behind it) yield strong evidence they have been around since Jesus walked the earth. And since Jesus carries enormously more credibility than any other figure in human history, I am suggesting God has spoken to mankind. You are simply not comprehending, imo.

The miracles, signs and wonders of Catholic/Christian origin are legion. They are empirical reasons to believe. You can dismiss them, we cannot.

FYI, Catholicism is not regional. There are Catholic masses and faithful in nearly every nation on earth. And since your avatar delights in mocking the Catholics by showing a heartless crusader laying some pagan to the sword, again, you do not comprehend. It is a spiritual battle we are engaged in. Engaged in by Christians who also happen to be weak and sinful at times. Islam conquered and subjugated millions of innocents and set out to destroy Christianity in the Holy Land without prejudice. Sometimes we are called upon to defend truth and justice via military means. Tragic world we are on trial in.
 

thau

Well-Known Member
Can you provide examples of these miracles, signs, and wonders please.
Nothing has ever been brought forward that could sincerely explain away the supernatural events at Fatima, Portugal, 1917. Three young shepherd children have reported seeing the Virgin Mary each month. On July 13th (the third apparition) they tell the anxious crowd assembled that the Virgin Mary will perform a miracle for all to see in 90 days on October 13. This explains why 70,000 believers and scoffers assembled on October 13, a very dark, rainy and muddy day. The three children arrive and soon after Lucia points to the sky. The sun splits the grey clouds and begins to twirl, bounce and dance defying cosmic laws. It shoots of multi colored rays across the whole landscape changing the color of the people's faces, blue, green, yellow. All are spellbound. This lasts approximately 12 minutes until for a climax the sun grows in great size, turns blood red and charges the earth. All are terrified, but just as suddenly the sun recedes and all is peaceful. The very muddy ground and drenched clothes of those present are inexplicably now dry.

The Marxist and anti-clerical journalists from ‘O Seculo’ Lisbon newspaper there initially to mock this event humbly report the truth in their newspaper. There are also countless testimonies in print and on film as to what took place including that of scientists. It’s all there for anyone’s serious research. Some of the 70,000 do not see this phenomenon, but the vast majority clearly do and their accounts are very much the same. If God chooses to deny some a gift or manifestation how does that discount the accounts of all the other eye witnesses? This is no minor miracle. It was predicted 90 days in advance to the exact day it would occur by three small children back in July. And this does not impress the doubters? Mass hallucination has no validity if one is honest about all of the facts and details. It is a hyper improbable theory at best. God did what he chose here to show the world He is real and that He is the God of Jesus Christ, not Buddha, Muhammad or any others. It is the one salient miracle that remains unassailable and incontrovertible, in my opinion, and should be in the opinions of unbiased honest men. Again, this miracle does not stand on its own, but is a remarkable empirical event in history which lends solid evidence to support all other events and claims surrounding Jesus Christ.
 

Theodore A. Jones

Active Member
Given that so many different religions exist, many of which are mutually exclusive, and most claim they contain the truth of reality, the odds aren't in your favor that you picked the right religion. This is based on pure statistical analysis, and that's assuming that one religion we have is actually correct.

Most religious beliefs corresponds with geography--a religion based on truth shouldn't depend on where you're born. Islam will obviously correspond with the middle east and Christianity can be frequently found in the States.

There have also been countless religious frauds that try to take advantage of people and make money/ manipulate people with religion. Even if a religion happened to be correct at some point, its very possible that respective religion has been polluted so much over time, like telephone, that the religion doesn't even resemble anything like what it started out as. For example the original teachings of Jesus Christ vs the modern catholic faith which includes the pope and hundreds of rituals, and the various Xian sects.

Its one thing to argue that a deism God exists as a kind of philosophical entity, but its another to show that there is an intervening God who cares about what we do with our genitals and what we do with our Sundays, and wants to have an individual relationship with people. Most of the arguments given by people of faiths are all identical to each other which I find to be an amusing reflection that there aren't many good arguments beyond those for deism.

As fo religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, even though I consider Buddhism to resemble more of a philosophy, I haven't seen any convincing evidence of reincarnation or multiple Gods.

OK. I agree with you to this demarcation. All contemporary religious perspectives taught by any sectarian established group are false including all religious sects relative to Christianity. Why? and suborn your thesis by fact.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Can you provide examples of these miracles, signs, and wonders please.

Look no further than the first page

Many atheists considered the concept of a specific creation event too miraculous and wondrous to be true- mocking Lemaitre's theory as 'big bang' in favor of their static/eternal/ 'no creation= no creator' theories
 
Nothing has ever been brought forward that could sincerely explain away the supernatural events at Fatima, Portugal, 1917. Three young shepherd children have reported seeing the Virgin Mary each month. On July 13th (the third apparition) they tell the anxious crowd assembled that the Virgin Mary will perform a miracle for all to see in 90 days on October 13. This explains why 70,000 believers and scoffers assembled on October 13, a very dark, rainy and muddy day. The three children arrive and soon after Lucia points to the sky. The sun splits the grey clouds and begins to twirl, bounce and dance defying cosmic laws. It shoots of multi colored rays across the whole landscape changing the color of the people's faces, blue, green, yellow. All are spellbound. This lasts approximately 12 minutes until for a climax the sun grows in great size, turns blood red and charges the earth. All are terrified, but just as suddenly the sun recedes and all is peaceful. The very muddy ground and drenched clothes of those present are inexplicably now dry.

The Marxist and anti-clerical journalists from ‘O Seculo’ Lisbon newspaper there initially to mock this event humbly report the truth in their newspaper. There are also countless testimonies in print and on film as to what took place including that of scientists. It’s all there for anyone’s serious research. Some of the 70,000 do not see this phenomenon, but the vast majority clearly do and their accounts are very much the same. If God chooses to deny some a gift or manifestation how does that discount the accounts of all the other eye witnesses? This is no minor miracle. It was predicted 90 days in advance to the exact day it would occur by three small children back in July. And this does not impress the doubters? Mass hallucination has no validity if one is honest about all of the facts and details. It is a hyper improbable theory at best. God did what he chose here to show the world He is real and that He is the God of Jesus Christ, not Buddha, Muhammad or any others. It is the one salient miracle that remains unassailable and incontrovertible, in my opinion, and should be in the opinions of unbiased honest men. Again, this miracle does not stand on its own, but is a remarkable empirical event in history which lends solid evidence to support all other events and claims surrounding Jesus Christ.

I found this interesting.

When self-fulfilling prophecies Knock - Bad Astronomy : Bad Astronomy
 
Look no further than the first page

Many atheists considered the concept of a specific creation event too miraculous and wondrous to be true- mocking Lemaitre's theory as 'big bang' in favor of their static/eternal/ 'no creation= no creator' theories

So you are saying that the universe HAD to be created by something and it is impossible that it could exist otherwise? If so, how do you KNOW this?
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
So you are saying that the universe HAD to be created by something and it is impossible that it could exist otherwise? If so, how do you KNOW this?

That's the same question that I've been asking for a long time and nobody has any actual answers. They just keep repeating the same claim over and over and over again.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
So you are saying that the universe HAD to be created by something and it is impossible that it could exist otherwise? If so, how do you KNOW this?

I grew up when steady state was still popular, the CMBR was pretty much the last nail, bit I don't think we should ever close the scientific case on anything entirely
 

thau

Well-Known Member

Yes, well, perhaps. But unlikely.

The fact is I could inundate you with scores of eye witness testimonies of that day. Many from several miles away. Many testimonies recorded on film. And countless documented analyses of this event by secular sources. I also have the English translation of the Marxist Lisbon newspaper “O Seculo” which was published two days after the event by the journalist who was present for the miracle and reluctantly reported the truth. His mission was initially to be there to mock it. There are subsequent miracles associated with Fatima that further validate its authenticity. There are other accounts that lay waste to the “mass hallucination” claim. In fact it reports such a matter where thousands mass hallucinate are virtually unheard of in the annals of documented history. But you really must have great desire to know the truth to pursue such an interest. I also could produce many other miracles, yes miracles, not associated with Fatima at all, but surely associated with Mary or Jesus or the Catholic Church.

For now, I will leave you only with the eye witness testimony of a science professor who reported on what he saw that day at Fatima. It contains no reference to anything supernatural, just a sober reporting of the facts he witnessed.

Essentials: The Facts: The Miracle of the Sun

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.

"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.

"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."

Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984)
 

idea

Question Everything
Where did everything come from? at least we know what currently exists. The difference between what is alive, and what is not alive - self-awareness, free will, the ability to act and not just be acted upon - to me, spirit is the difference between what is alive and what is dead. To see spirits in what currently lives makes it easy for me to see spirits in the eternities too. What is the universe made of? Matter, energy, information, and intelligence/spirit. What currently exists has always, and will always exist I think.
 
Yes, well, perhaps. But unlikely.

The fact is I could inundate you with scores of eye witness testimonies of that day. Many from several miles away. Many testimonies recorded on film. And countless documented analyses of this event by secular sources. I also have the English translation of the Marxist Lisbon newspaper “O Seculo” which was published two days after the event by the journalist who was present for the miracle and reluctantly reported the truth. His mission was initially to be there to mock it. There are subsequent miracles associated with Fatima that further validate its authenticity. There are other accounts that lay waste to the “mass hallucination” claim. In fact it reports such a matter where thousands mass hallucinate are virtually unheard of in the annals of documented history. But you really must have great desire to know the truth to pursue such an interest. I also could produce many other miracles, yes miracles, not associated with Fatima at all, but surely associated with Mary or Jesus or the Catholic Church.

For now, I will leave you only with the eye witness testimony of a science professor who reported on what he saw that day at Fatima. It contains no reference to anything supernatural, just a sober reporting of the facts he witnessed.

Essentials: The Facts: The Miracle of the Sun

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.

"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.

"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."

Professor Almeida Garrett's full account may be found in Novos Documentos de Fatima (Loyala editions, San Paulo, 1984)

Do you have anything that doesn't involve people starring at the sun?
 
Top