Is premarital sex really a sin?

[Muffled]

When you don't treat homosexuals equally, with the same rights and privileges everyone else enjoys -- when you assert that they are sinful by nature of who they are, it's dehumanizing! You're suggesting that the bible either says those things about homosexuals, or you find biblical justification for condoning such acts yourself.

I believe the opposite is true that sin dehumanizes a person because it removes a person from what God inteneded for them to be as a human. Therefor a call for repentence of sin is acall to return to our humanity.

 

[Muffled]

So even in jokes-ville is Jesus is breaking some rules.

The point of that whole passage was "Don't worry about it. Im'a still hang out with ya for a couple days."

I believe the rule was most likely a man's rule and not God's rule.

I believe my Puritan background sometimes stands in the way. To be in the company of sinners makes me impure by association. However for twelve years I worked in prison ministry and spoke to sinners all the time but not once did I encourage them to sin but on the contrary warned them that sin has bad consequences.

 

[sojourner]

I believe the opposite is true that sin dehumanizes a person because it removes a person from what God inteneded for them to be as a human. Therefor a call for repentence of sin is acall to return to our humanity.

Yeah, except that what a person is isn't sin. The bible specifically says that people, themselves, are not sin, because we are the imago dei. And the best scientific evidence we have states that homosexuality is normal, IOW, it's how some people naturally are. Therefore, to insist that "the way some people are" is "against God" is dehumanizing.

 

[McBell]

What I do not understand is if god had as big a problem with it as some claim, why doesn't god do something about it?

I most often get the lame duck excuse that god does not interfere with free-will.
Fine, but if this is the case, why do some people think they are free to something that god himself refuses to do?

 

[sojourner]

What I do not understand is if god had as big a problem with it as some claim, why doesn't god do something about it?

I most often get the lame duck excuse that god does not interfere with free-will.
Fine, but if this is the case, why do some people think they are free to something that god himself refuses to do?

Well, that's sort of the nature of sin -- that people do things God wouldn't do.

 

[McBell]

Well, that's sort of the nature of sin -- that people do things God wouldn't do.

Sin is going against the will and or wishes of your chosen deity.
If god refuses to interfere, by what logic are they using to interfere in the name of god?

 

[sojourner]

Sin is going against the will and or wishes of your chosen deity.
If god refuses to interfere, by what logic are they using to interfere in the name of god?

Who said it was logical?

 

[JerryL]

I believe the opposite is true that sin dehumanizes a person because it removes a person from what God inteneded for them to be as a human. Therefor a call for repentence of sin is acall to return to our humanity.

So you oppose equal treatment for non-Christians, idolaters (you know: people who pray to statues or the like), divorcees, women with short hair, men with long hair, and people who have looked at a woman with lust in their eye?

I'd like to know that you aren't singling out homosexuals without reason.

 

[gsa]

What I do not understand is if god had as big a problem with it as some claim, why doesn't god do something about it?

This seems like a major problem for conservative Christian and Muslim groups that claim Sodom was destroyed for this reason. Were that the case, we should see fire and brimstone raining down from on high against any number of civilizations. Curiously, that hasn't happened.

 

[JerryL]

This seems like a major problem for conservative Christian and Muslim groups that claim Sodom was destroyed for this reason. Were that the case, we should see fire and brimstone raining down from on high against any number of civilizations. Curiously, that hasn't happened.

That's a common misunderstanding of the story of Sodom.

In the proverb: Sodom was destroyed for their mistreatment of guests.

 

[Harikrish]

That's a common misunderstanding of the story of Sodom.

In the proverb: Sodom was destroyed for their mistreatment of guests.

Are you suggesting God took good manners that seriously?

 

[sincerly]

Ya don't get it. Homosexuality is an identity, not an action. It involves action, just as does any other identity. But to tell someone that they are sin is dehumanizing!!

I disagree with your take on depravity, but that's for another thread.

Sojourner, Sin is "dehumanizing" it leads to being dust--if not repented of.
This thread is about premarital sex---not necessarily homosexuality which the Scriptures plainly condemns also.

 

[gsa]

That's a common misunderstanding of the story of Sodom.

In the proverb: Sodom was destroyed for their mistreatment of guests.

Right. People familiar with the story (and the context, including the importance of aliens going to the town square in both Genesis and Judges) understands this, but most conservative Christians and Muslims still view it as an indictment of homosexuality.

Are you suggesting God took good manners that seriously?

Hospitality in the ancient Near East was a life and death matter. It was extremely serious.

 

[sincerly]

Are you suggesting God took good manners that seriously?

Sin is going against the will and or wishes of your chosen deity.
If god refuses to interfere, by what logic are they using to interfere in the name of god?

HK and Mestemia, the Creator GOD is the only true GOD; the rest of people's gods are made by mankind.

GOD did take the "manners"/way of life of not having "Guests" raped seriously--- and the result was in the distruction of those cities.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, Sin is "dehumanizing" it leads to being dust--if not repented of.
This thread is about premarital sex---not necessarily homosexuality which the Scriptures plainly condemns also.

First of all, the texts are ambiguous with regard to what the injunctions mean.
Second, we are dust -- and to dust we shall return.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Sojourner, Sin is "dehumanizing" it leads to being dust--if not repented of.
This thread is about premarital sex---not necessarily homosexuality which the Scriptures plainly condemns also.

First of all, the texts are ambiguous with regard to what the injunctions mean.
Second, we are dust -- and to dust we shall return.

Sojourner, first the Scriptures are NOT ambiguous, but man's interpretations can be. There is nothing ambiguous about "lieing with man as with woman.---sexually.

Second, Yes, Humans, animals, plants were all made from "dust" and all things will return to that state at death. However, The Scriptures have a different "end" for the resurrected believers who believe and obey--- than those who SIN---are disobedient and unrepentant.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, first the Scriptures are NOT ambiguous, but man's interpretations can be. There is nothing ambiguous about "lieing with man as with woman.---sexually.

Of course they are. the process of translating from Hebrew/Greek to English, the problem of cross-cultural understanding, all contribute to the text's tenuous clarity. What does that mean, "to lie with a man as with a woman?" Does it refer to a mutually-satisfying and loving relationship based upon who these people are, or does it refer to forcible rape? Or a simple act of animal lust? Or a case of domination? Or sexual perversion? We don't know.

Second, Yes, Humans, animals, plants were all made from "dust" and all things will return to that state at death. However, The Scriptures have a different "end" for the resurrected believers who believe and obey--- than those who SIN---are disobedient and unrepentant.

I don't believe they do. Resurrection is for all humanity. I believe that all humanity will come to believe, because that's what the texts tell us: "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess..."

 

[McBell]

HK and Mestemia, the Creator GOD is the only true GOD; the rest of people's gods are made by mankind.

GOD did take the "manners"/way of life of not having "Guests" raped seriously--- and the result was in the distruction of those cities.

This does not in any way address my question.

 

[sincerly]

Of course they are. the process of translating from Hebrew/Greek to English, the problem of cross-cultural understanding, all contribute to the text's tenuous clarity. What does that mean, "to lie with a man as with a woman?" Does it refer to a mutually-satisfying and loving relationship based upon who these people are, or does it refer to forcible rape? Or a simple act of animal lust? Or a case of domination? Or sexual perversion? We don't know.

We do know. Exegesis is a correct giving of the meaning from one language to another. However, when one posts the contrary to the Scriptures under the guise of "everyone can interprete as they please" that is eisegesis.
GOD said Isa.45:22-25(23), "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."

I don't believe they do. Resurrection is for all humanity. I believe that all humanity will come to believe, because that's what the texts tell us: "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess..."

Rom.14:9-13(11), which you quoted above, and Isaiah was the source for Paul's remarks, says your eisegesis is faulty. " All" will stand before GOD, in their 1000 years apart resurrections and "confess"/acknowledge that GOD IS GOD, but their "rewards" are different as the Scriptures affirm/confirm.

It was/is GOD who condemns the sexual sins as the Scriptures teach. One can eisegesis as one pleases , but that doesn't change that which "went out of the mouth of GOD."

 

[JerryL]

Are you suggesting God took good manners that seriously?

If by "manners" you mean "treatment of guests" : that is what the story is intended to indicate.

A better understanding of the culture helps inform the discussion. Ask a practicing Jew what that story is about (and BTW: You'll find it's also one of the pillars of Islam).