When Does God Start To Burn People In Hell

[arthra]

Dave wrote:

I don't think abrahamic god will send a newborn baby to hell that's born to an atheist family.Even though that baby will probably be atheist too.So at what age people are began to send to hell?This is extremely important you know.You have to know when you may get send to hell you will stay there for eternity after all.

My comment:

New born babes are innocent according to Baha'i Writings.. regardless of who they are born too... No original sin in our religion or need for infant baptism with us...Also hell is a condition that some people have brought on themselves by their behaviours that they are responsible for.. Hell is not for eternity but the soul can progress in the next world..

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Levite, you said Jews don't believe in hell; and sheol="hell"=same thing=grave(place of burial).

Agreed, it is not a place of "eternal damnation to torture". The righteous and the wicked both are placed in "sheol"/grave/pit=hell---at death.
There will come a Day of Atonement.

She'ol does not equal hell. It is often translated as "the grave," but properly speaking, in ancient Israelite belief, it was the underworld. Everyone was thought to go there when they died-- good, bad, or mediocre. A little like the Greek Hades, it was just the underworld: it carried no attachments of either punishment or reward.

Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.

This is, however, a theology of ancient Israelite belief. Rabbinic Judaism has no underworld, and has always interpreted she'ol metaphorically. It is not even clear whether belief in a literal she'ol survived in the Second Temple era. But no Jew, to my knowledge, has believed in a literal she'ol for at least 2,000 years.

Levite, the "underworld" of the "undying" is NOT real and NOT scriptural. The Creator GOD said at death one would return to the dust from whence mankind was made. Dust has no life.

Also, the Day of Atonement comes every year on the tenth of the month of Tishrei. We call it Yom Kippur.

sincerly said: ↑
Levite, you said Jews don't believe in hell; and sheol="hell"=same thing=grave(place of burial).

Agreed, it is not a place of "eternal damnation to torture". The righteous and the wicked both are placed in "sheol"/grave/pit=hell---at death.
There will come a Day of Atonement.

She'ol does not equal hell. It is often translated as "the grave," but properly speaking, in ancient Israelite belief, it was the underworld. Everyone was thought to go there when they died-- good, bad, or mediocre. A little like the Greek Hades, it was just the underworld: it carried no attachments of either punishment or reward.

Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.

This is, however, a theology of ancient Israelite belief. Rabbinic Judaism has no underworld, and has always interpreted she'ol metaphorically. It is not even clear whether belief in a literal she'ol survived in the Second Temple era. But no Jew, to my knowledge, has believed in a literal she'ol for at least 2,000 years.

Levite, the "underworld" of the "undying" is NOT real and NOT scriptural. The Creator GOD said at death one would return to the dust from whence mankind was made. Dust has no life.

Also, the Day of Atonement comes every year on the tenth of the month of Tishrei. We call it Yom Kippur.

Yes, there were three such annual festivals, and GOD'S judgment Day will occur.

 

[Nietzsche]

Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.

And therein lies the problem!

 

[sincerly]

My comment: New born babes are innocent according to Baha'i Writings.. regardless of who they are born too... No original sin in our religion or need for infant baptism with us...Also hell is a condition that some people have brought on themselves by their behaviours that they are responsible for.. Hell is not for eternity but the soul can progress in the next world..

There is no progression in the Biblical Scriptures. One is paid the wages one earns. This life is "fixed"" while one lives. Therefore, make sure all "wrongs" are made right in this life. Do it, while it is still called "today".

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.

And therein lies the problem!

Which of those verses would you like to see, the one's translated "grave" or ""hell"?

 

[Nietzsche]

sincerly said: ↑
Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.



Which of those verses would you like to see, the one's translated "grave" or ""hell"?

You misunderstand. I am aware of how the KJV of the Hebrew texts is translated. It is a poor translation that doesn't hold up if you read the texts themselves. 'Sheol' translated as 'Hell' is incredibly shoddy linguistics.

 

[Desert Snake]

'Hell', like 'Hades. Christians believe this ./ Israelite belief as Levite stated.
'Hell', non-Hades /underworld interpretation.--> made up by people who translated 'backwards' into a Hebrew word using I assume definitions in Judaism to figure out what "Hell' meant.
Xianity= Hell, like an underworld, but worse. You know, like "Hell depictions in Hollywood, for all intents and purposes.
Judaism= No Hell.

 

[Desert Snake]

Btw obviously why the tranlsators used 'Hades' for the Xian hell.
The readers would know what that means, ie 'underworld, unpleasant. not paradise.
The Xian verbal tradition teaches a 'worse' hell, than hades, so it isn't necessary to specify this in the text.

 

[catch22]

To answer the OP,

This is stated in Revelation 20, specifically verses 11-15. Shoel/Hades are places of the dead, the grave, somewhere where those who are presently dead reside. At the moment of judgment they are pulled from there, judged, and dealt with accordingly. You'll note those places that held the dead are also destroyed in these passages. The previous chapter, satan and his false prophet were thrown in this lake of fire, so you can imagine it's not the place to be.

For those whose names are in the book of Life, they live eternally with God. Those not found in the book, into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

This gives the impression that the current state of death is the Jewish understanding of shoel/hades. A place where dead people reside, at least to me the OT and NT reconcile on this point. The Jews who reject Christ, though, miss out on the revelation that makes the situation of the afterlife more clear... so it's not surprising the Jews commenting here don't understand the Christian concept of hell.

Jesus spoke more about death/hell than anyone else in the Bible, so it was important to Him.

As for the children, no, they aren't thrown into the lake of fire. In the new and old testaments it's made clear young children are not judged by God since they have no way of having accountability (that is the understanding of good and evil and thus responsibility for their own actions). There's no age given; I imagine it's based on the individual child.

As for those who haven't heard the message: they would be very few and far between in this day and age, but according to Revelation, all are judged based on their works and judged according to their situation. If you have heard the message of Christ and did not abide in Him, it wouldn't be a pretty picture. On the other hand, those who are proclaimed followers of Jesus, know the scripture, and lead others astray and commit atrocity while preaching (you know the sorts), possibility get the strictest judgment of all.

I think it's misguided to worry so much about what happens to everyone but yourself. I mean, I don't say that to be selfish, but it's the only thing you can actively control, where your heart is. To each their own, and what not. It probably just broods anger to consider the judgment of the world. I mean, let God handle that. He can, we can't. So why do people worry about this so much??

To me, it's an issue of hardness of heart, so you should examine that.

 

[Levite]

Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times.

First of all, I don't actually care how often something is translated in the KJV. For one thing, the KJV is actually a mediocre translation in terms of accuracy. Lovely poetry, but so-so accuracy. Aside from reading in the original Hebrew, I actually have degrees in Jewish Studies, so I have a fair idea of how things have been translated, what the scholarship is on various words and ideas, and how the Hebrew Scriptures and Rabbinic Literature function. I don't need a translation count in the KJV.

And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead... the "underworld" of the "undying" is NOT real and NOT scriptural. The Creator GOD said at death one would return to the dust from whence mankind was made. Dust has no life.

You are retrojecting a Christian understanding of afterlife into the text. Ancient Israelite religion is not identical to Rabbinic Judaism, and neither are at all the same thing as Christianity.

How the ancient Israelites conceived of the afterlife, and how they may have interpreted the Torah in accord with that is a matter of scholarly conjecture, and the vast majority of scholarship at this point indicates that they did conceive of she'ol as an "underworld" populated by the shades or ghosts of dead people, whereas the physical body was what returned to the earth from which it was made.

This is a frequent issue with you: you consistently retroject Christian and modern theologies into Tanach. For your own personal religious purposes, obviously, you can do as you please. But if you are attempting to comment on the text in any kind of scholarly fashion, or if you are attempting to understand the text as its original audience likely understood it, or if you are attempting to understand the text as the Jewish tradition (which, ultimately, produced the text) does so, then you cannot retroject Christian theology and interpretation into the text and expect to have any credibility to your reading of it.

Yes, there were three such annual festivals, and GOD'S judgment Day will occur.

First of all, the three pilgrimage festivals have nothing to do with Yom Kippur. Each of those festivals had their own purposes, none of which were atonement of sin. Yom Kippur alone was concerned primarily with the atonement of sin.

Second of all, there is a fairly common belief in late Biblical, Second Temple, and early Rabbinic Judaism in a yom Hashem (Day of God) or yom ha-din (Day of Judgment). However, there is no concurrence as to what precisely is meant by either of these phrases, or precisely what will take place, or when, and what its ultimate effect will be.

The majority of modern Jews read the idea of a yom Hashem or yom ha-din to be entirely metaphorical. Those who do understand it to have some sort of literal or actual intent have a multitude of differing ideas about what it may signify.

Almost certainly, none of those ideas are what Christians seem to mean when they speak of a "Judgment Day."

 

[Glaurung]

The Jesuits used to say "Give me a child until they are seven, and I will show you the man".

Any connection here?

Don't know, but at one point the Jesuits offered some of the best education available in Europe. I don't think there's anything as sinister here as you may be tempted to imply.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
sincerly said: ↑
Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times. And as I posted---all dead go there. However, nothing there is alive.---that was placed there dead.

Which of those verses would you like to see, the one's translated "grave" or ""hell"?

You misunderstand. I am aware of how the KJV of the Hebrew texts is translated. It is a poor translation that doesn't hold up if you read the texts themselves. 'Sheol' translated as 'Hell' is incredibly shoddy linguistics.

Yes, I do understand---therefore, the question. Both referred to the place where the dead/non-living were.

 

[Nietzsche]

Don't know, but at one point the Jesuits offered some of the best education available in Europe. I don't think there's anything as sinister here as you may be tempted to imply.

I actually find the Jesuits to be, without question, the best thing the Roman Church has ever done. They and their fellows saved what little was left of the indigenous religions of South America, and are some of the best examples of deeply religious individuals accepting the hard facts put forth by science. Religion can be reconciled with science if you are willing to see your holy text as something far grander and more beautiful than a literal documentation of events.

Yes, I do understand---therefore, the question. Both referred to the place where the dead/non-living were.

Yes. The dead. As in no longer existing. As in, just dead. No reward, no punishment, just nothingness.

 

[sincerly]

Levite, in the KJV, "she'ol" is translated as "grave"=31times; As "hell"=31 times and as "pit"=3 times for a total of 65 times.

Aside from reading in the original Hebrew, I actually have degrees in Jewish Studies, so I have a fair idea of how things have been translated, what the scholarship is on various words and ideas, and how the Hebrew Scriptures and Rabbinic Literature function. I don't need a translation count in the KJV.

sincerly said: ↑
Levite, you said Jews don't believe in hell; and sheol="hell"=same thing=grave(place of burial).

Agreed, it is not a place of "eternal damnation to torture". The righteous and the wicked both are placed in "sheol"/grave/pit=hell---at death.
There will come a Day of Atonement.

No! You don't need a translation count, but where the Hebrew "she'ol" was translated in the OT it did have the above. Still referring to one's burial place at death.

You are retrojecting a Christian understanding of afterlife into the text. Ancient Israelite religion is not identical to Rabbinic Judaism, and neither are at all the same thing as Christianity.

How the ancient Israelites conceived of the afterlife, and how they may have interpreted the Torah in accord with that is a matter of scholarly conjecture[/color], and the vast majority of scholarship at this point indicates that they did conceive of she'ol as an "underworld" populated by the shades or ghosts of dead people, whereas the physical body was what returned to the earth from which it was made.

This is a frequent issue with you: you consistently retroject Christian and modern theologies into Tanach. For your own personal religious purposes, obviously, you can do as you please.

Levite, the Creator GOD remains sted-fast to the Principles and laws HE has made for the right relationship to HIMSELF and all of mankind.
No scholarly work/ideas by mankind can change anything GOD has established---"at this point".
There are no "shades or ghosts of dead people". Yes, the fallen Angels, do/have presented themselves to others---not for any ultimate good.

The "ancients" were not left to "conjecture". JOB knew that there would be a resurrection "in the last days". Malachi was told that the fate of the wicked was to be ashes. Those are truths.

There is no retrojecting on my part, but as one can see in this post of your's, there is much retrofitting to attempt to make the scriptures say contrary.

First of all, the three pilgrimage festivals have nothing to do with Yom Kippur. Each of those festivals had their own purposes, none of which were atonement of sin. Yom Kippur alone was concerned primarily with the atonement of sin.

First,You said, None of the three have anything to do with Yom Kippur---then you admit that Yom Kippur does have to do with Yom Kippur That period of time was the Day of Atonement/ Day of Judgment.

Second of all, there is a fairly common belief in late Biblical, Second Temple, and early Rabbinic Judaism in a yom Hashem (Day of God) or yom ha-din (Day of Judgment). However, there is no concurrence as to what precisely is meant by either of these phrases, or precisely what will take place, or when, and what its ultimate effect will be.

The majority of modern Jews read the idea of a yom Hashem or yom ha-din to be entirely metaphorical. Those who do understand it to have some sort of literal or actual intent have a multitude of differing ideas about what it may signify.

Almost certainly, none of those ideas are what Christians seem to mean when they speak of a "Judgment Day."

Continue to doubt GOD. The time is drawing closer to that prophesied time. Scholars know best--more so than GOD--by their own conclusions.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
Yes, I do understand---therefore, the question. Both referred to the place where the dead/non-living were.

Yes. The dead. As in no longer existing. As in, just dead. No reward, no punishment, just nothingness.

However, the Scriptures do not stop at your point because it tells of a resurrection of all who have died to be rewarded with everlasting life or that "non-existence". The "punishment" will be the ending in those ashes of nothingness.

 

[Nietzsche]

However, the Scriptures do not stop at your point because it tells of a resurrection of all who have died to be rewarded with everlasting life or that "non-existence". The "punishment" will be the ending in those ashes of nothingness.

I will leave this to Levite. He is more learned on this than I am. However I find it hilarious that you are insisting your interpretation of HIS(Levite's) holy text is the correct one. Rather than the thousands of years of Rabbinic study and thought. This would be like him arguing with you over the New Testament.

It's not your book. Christianity through its inane interpretations of the Hebrew works has sullied the name of Judaism for about two thousand years now.

 

[sincerly]

sincerly said: ↑
However, the Scriptures do not stop at your point because it tells of a resurrection of all who have died to be rewarded with everlasting life or that "non-existence". The "punishment" will be the ending in those ashes of nothingness.

It's not your book.

Agreed. The inspired writings were by holy men of/from GOD as they were inspired to give messages to Mankind.

 

[Levite]

No! You don't need a translation count, but where the Hebrew "she'ol" was translated in the OT it did have the above. Still referring to one's burial place at death. Levite, the Creator GOD remains sted-fast to the Principles and laws HE has made for the right relationship to HIMSELF and all of mankind.
No scholarly work/ideas by mankind can change anything GOD has established---"at this point".
There are no "shades or ghosts of dead people". Yes, the fallen Angels, do/have presented themselves to others---not for any ultimate good.
The "ancients" were not left to "conjecture". JOB knew that there would be a resurrection "in the last days". Malachi was told that the fate of the wicked was to be ashes. Those are truths.
There is no retrojecting on my part, but as one can see in this post of your's, there is much retrofitting to attempt to make the scriptures say contrary.

Yeah, whatever. This is just more Christian fanaticism. Has nothing to do with actual scholarship, and nothing to do with actual Jewish text or theology. It's not even worth responding to.

First,You said, None of the three have anything to do with Yom Kippur---then you admit that Yom Kippur does have to do with Yom Kippur That period of time was the Day of Atonement/ Day of Judgment.

I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that Yom Kippur is not one of the three pilgrimage holidays. The three pilgrimage holidays were Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (the Feast of Weeks), and Sukkot (the Festival of Shelters/Booths). Pesach celebrates the Exodus and the coming of springtime. Shavuot celebrates the giving of the Torah and the early harvest. Sukkot celebrates the late harvest and the beginning of the rainy season. None of the three are about atonement of sin. Yom Kippur is celebrated five days prior to the beginning of Sukkot. It is an entirely separate holiday, which actually is concerned with the atonement from sin. Yom Kippur is sometimes associated with the Day of Judgment, but, again, the meaning of this is infinitely different than the Christian idea of "Judgment Day."

Continue to doubt GOD. The time is drawing closer to that prophesied time.

That's just silly. It sounds like a parody of radical fundamentalism. You might want to try and get over apocalypticism: it always disappoints, and never produces anything worthwhile.

 

[RabbiO]

I said nothing of the sort.

There is a saying attributed to George Bernard Shaw that the United States and England are two countries separated by a common language. Perhaps the same may hold true for attempts at interfaith dialogue.

 

[Etritonakin]

Read the bible -it actually makes sense -people make stuff up about it that doesn't make sense.

The first to be cast into gehenna are the beast and false prophet -at about the return of Christ.....

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

A thousand years later, the devil -who will have been bound in the bottomless pit for the thousand years -will be loosed for a short time -and only then be cast in to gehenna.....

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,.....................
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Those who were "in Christ" at his return -the dead first, and then the living -will be made immortal at his return -and reign on earth with him for the thousand years -after which the "rest of the dead" will be raised to the judgment....

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The end of verse 20:5 does not describe the beginning of that verse -but what came before it.


Then comes the "great white throne" judgment.... where all who have ever lived will be judged "according to their works" -not their innocently-errant beliefs or ignorance. God is just, equal and merciful -such things will be considered, and not all who are raised to the second resurrection/the judgment will be cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Though God is able to completely destroy any in the lake of fire -this is not necessarily what will happen to all who are cast there.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Notice that death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire...

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire...............

If any are completely destroyed in the lake of fire, they will not be the sort you would miss. Any who go into it and come out of it will be better for it.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire...........