What are your thoughts on Chruch's refusing to wed gays?

[columbus]

Norman: I understand Tom that you are homosexual, do you belong to a Church?

Sort of, but not really. I spend a fair amount of time at the local RCC because they have a top notch charity committee. And they don't care who is helping, even gay atheist exCatholics like me.

If not, is that because of your sexual orientation?

No. It is because I figured out early on that religion is fiction. Long before I realised that I am gay

Maybe other's might think that your intentions are a scam?

Like what? What intentions are you referring to, exactly? In what way might my beliefs be "a scam"? My intentions are to discuss and critique the claims that people make.
Tom

 

[Norman]

Sort of, but not really. I spend a fair amount of time at the local RCC because they have a top notch charity committee. And they don't care who is helping, even gay atheist exCatholics like me.
No. It is because I figured out early on that religion is fiction. Long before I realised that I am gay

Like what? What intentions are you referring to, exactly? In what way might my beliefs be "a scam"? My intentions are to discuss and critique the claims that people make.
Tom

Norman: Hi Tom, I am sorry about my scam comment to you, that was rude of me.

 

[Norman]

You don't get to legislate morality based on your mythology. Period. Keep on repeating it, though, until you finally get that you don't get to infect OUR government with YOUR mythology.


California's Prop 8. Look it up.


Bull****.


I chose my words carefully.


I'll say it again, you do not get to prostitute OUR government with YOUR mythology.


Does it matter how I answer that question? You've already decided, haven't you?


See above.


I beg your pardon? Did you just presume to tell me how to respond to you? ROFLOLPIMP

Norman: What does ROFLOLPIMP mean? Look up the definition of Diatribe and Harangue, then you will understand what I was asking you.

 

[Marisa]

Norman: What does ROFLOLPIMP mean? Look up the definition of Diatribe and Harangue, then you will understand what I was asking you.

It means "rolling on the floor, laughing out loud, peeing in my pants". You're one to chide about long speeches, you know? Look up "chide" if you aren't sure what I mean. My comments are only aggressive because you think your woo belief gives you the right to prostitute our government with it and call it "morality".

 

[Norman]

Churches should lose their tax free status anyway - regardless of their response to equal rights.

Norman: And this is coming from an atheist?

 

[columbus]

Norman: Hi Tom, I am sorry about my scam comment to you, that was rude of me.

That's nice.
Let's go back to what we were talking about.
You claimed that the Mormons were being morally imposed upon. You implied that the Obama administration was targeting your church.
So I asked how, exactly, your morals were being imposed upon.
You said that the LDS canning operations were being held to strict food safety standards. That was your answer.
I'm drawing my own conclusions.
Tom

 

[Norman]

It means "rolling on the floor, laughing out loud, peeing in my pants". You're one to chide about long speeches, you know? Look up "chide" if you aren't sure what I mean. My comments are only aggressive because you think your woo belief gives you the right to prostitute our government with it and call it "morality".

Norman: Do you know what "civic virtue" is? If not, let me explain it to you. Those who enjoy the blessings of liberty under our national and state constitutions should promote morality, and they should practice what the Founding Fathers called “civic virtue.” John Adams, the second president of the United States, declared, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. James Madison argued in the Federalist Papers that “republican government presupposes the exercise of these qualities [of virtue] in a higher degree than any other form. Citizens should also be practitioners of civic virtue in their conduct toward our states and our nation. Are you willing Marisa to practice Morality or civic virtue? Do you belong to a Church? If so, do they teach morality and virtue? You didn't answer my questions from before. Do you have a conscience and any moral values? Do you have a family? If so, what do you teach your children about how to act in society and to God?

 

[Bunyip]

Norman: Do you know what "civic virtue" is? If not, let me explain it to you. Those who enjoy the blessings of liberty under our national and state constitutions should promote morality, and they should practice what the Founding Fathers called “civic virtue.” John Adams, the second president of the United States, declared, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. James Madison argued in the Federalist Papers that “republican government presupposes the exercise of these qualities [of virtue] in a higher degree than any other form. Citizens should also be practitioners of civic virtue in their conduct toward our states and our nation. Are you willing Marisa to practice Morality or civic virtue? Do you belong to a Church? If so, do they teach morality and virtue? You didn't answer my questions from before. Do you have a conscience and any moral values? Do you have a family? If so, what do you teach your children about how to act in society and to God?

Let me ease your concerns there - the statistics indicate that atheists in general demonstrate a greater degree of civic virtue and morality than does the average citizen. They are less likely to break the law.

 

[Marisa]

Norman: Do you know what "civic virtue" is? If not, let me explain it to you. Those who enjoy the blessings of liberty under our national and state constitutions should promote morality, and they should practice what the Founding Fathers called “civic virtue.” John Adams, the second president of the United States, declared, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. James Madison argued in the Federalist Papers that “republican government presupposes the exercise of these qualities [of virtue] in a higher degree than any other form. Citizens should also be practitioners of civic virtue in their conduct toward our states and our nation. Are you willing Marisa to practice Morality or civic virtue? Do you belong to a Church? If so, do they teach morality and virtue? You didn't answer my questions from before. Do you have a conscience and any moral values? Do you have a family? If so, what do you teach your children about how to act in society and to God?

Keep picking out one or two quotes from the founding fathers and ignoring the plethora which instruct that the goal was for a secular government not infected with theocratic notions of "morality", like when Jefferson commented that it does him no harm whether his neighbor professes there is one god or no gods. That's called cherry picking . . . look it up if you aren't sure what it means. I see no reason to entertain yor allusions that one cannot posses morality unless one posses woo. Needless to say, most people are more moral than the god of the bible. That is, save those who believe invisible friends want them to prostitute secular governments with protestations that some people aren't quite as equal as others.

 

[Marisa]

Let me ease your concerns there - the statistics indicate that atheists in general demonstrate a greater degree of civic virtue and morality than does the average citizen. They are less likely to break the law.

We also have lower divorce rates.

 

[Norman]

Let me ease your concerns there - the statistics indicate that atheists in general demonstrate a greater degree of civic virtue and morality than does the average citizen. They are less likely to break the law.

Norman: Really? Why don't you throw a couple of polls at me that support your opinion.

 

[Norman]

Keep picking out one or two quotes from the founding fathers and ignoring the plethora which instruct that the goal was for a secular government not infected with theocratic notions of "morality", like when Jefferson commented that it does him no harm whether his neighbor professes there is one god or no gods. That's called cherry picking . . . look it up if you aren't sure what it means. I see no reason to entertain yor allusions that one cannot posses morality unless one posses woo. Needless to say, most people are more moral than the god of the bible. That is, save those who believe invisible friends want them to prostitute secular governments with protestations that some people aren't quite as equal as others.

Norman: We can end it here, you have the last word. Bye

 

[Bunyip]

Norman: Really? Why don't you throw a couple of polls at me that support your opinion.

Judging from your behaviour to others here, I can see that there would be no point.

 

[Thief]

Let me ease your concerns there - the statistics indicate that atheists in general demonstrate a greater degree of civic virtue and morality than does the average citizen. They are less likely to break the law.

and where did you find the numbers?

 

[Katzpur]

Recently, we have heard rumblings that the federal government has been paying very close attention to the church’s cannery network and that the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration have been imposing increasingly burdensome regulations and requirements on the LDS canneries. Despite the cutting-edge technologies and state-of-the-art equipment at these ‘clean-room’ quality facilities, federal agencies have been hitting the LDS church with improvised fines for “violations” they find during surprise inspections. Reports of an FBI “raid” at one facility where agents demanded a list of the names of the cannery’s patrons was especially troublesome...

Could you quote a source for these "rumblings"? As you may know, "rumblings" have a way of being really inaccurate sometimes. I mean if there really were violations (which is possible no matter how hard a facility tries to be compliant), why wouldn't you want the recipients of possibly unsafe food to be notified?

...Why is the federal government going after the LDS Church? There are a number of reasons that come to mind. Obama’s nemesis in the general election was a prominent member of the LDS Church. Members of the church tend to vote in a conservative block. The LDS Church teaches the worship of God and His Son Jesus Christ, independence, morality, education, and family and traditional values–all things that are abhorrent to the current administration, which has proven its willingness to abuse its authority to go after those with whom it disagrees (Romney supporters, patriotic groups, conservatives, Christians, etc.). Also because Obama believes that “Charity” is wholly owned by the government and that churches have no right to participate. The government uses “charity” to gain votes to keep it in power. Thus control of “charity” must be taken from individuals and churches.

This has all come to pass by a socialist President who does not want Americans to be independent of the Federal Government. These services are for members and non-members who have a desire to store for a rainy day. This is not hording as President Obama put it, it is logical thinking and preparing. I personally have a one year storage of food and other items and I have had to a couple times because of loss of employment used from my storage. This is just comment sense but President Obama is trying to make it something it is not.

When I read nonsense like this, I am embarrassed to death. If nothing else, you are proving to everybody here on RF that not all Mormons think alike.

Norman, FYI: I don't believe the LDS Church should have to perform wedding ceremonies for gay and lesbian couples. I do, however, believe that these couples should have the same civil rights under the laws of the land that you and your wife have.

One more thing: I can feel this way and still be a good Mormon, believe it or not.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm drawing my own conclusions.

That's a relief! And it would be doubly so if you would assure me that you don't lump all Mormons together when it comes to our stance on political issues.

 

[Bunyip]

and where did you find the numbers?

Well here; March 2009 academic article, by Phil Zuckerman of Pitzer College, entitled "Atheism, Secularity, and Well-Being: How the Findings of Social Science Counter Negative Stereotypes and Assumptions".

It references detailed studies.

There are many others.

 

[JoStories]

Churches still reserve the right to not marry interracial marriage despite interracial marriage bans being overturned as unconstitutional nearly 50 years ago. Who they marry in their churches is their business. However if the church provides for-profit business such as rented venues for marriages or photographers, etc, then they're under the same non-descrimination regulation that all businesses under the BBB licensure are. They must provide equal service.

Isn't marrying a couple a type of business? I know when I married my ex, we had to pay that priest to do so and pay him to counsel us before that marriage as that was a part of the process at the time. If that priest benefits monetarily, that is a business, IMO and should therefore be considered a part of the anti-discrimination laws.

 

[JoStories]

Norman: Hi Windwalker, shuch as this. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a network of food canning and distribution centers around the nation, where volunteer church members donate time to can food grown on the church’s farms and orchards or purchased from other sources. The purpose of this network of canneries is to provide food to those who have been caught in disasters or just caught short by an ever-declining national economy. Millions of pounds of food are prepared for distribution annually in the LDS canneries.

Recently, we have heard rumblings that the federal government has been paying very close attention to the church’s cannery network and that the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Food and Drug Administration have been imposing increasingly burdensome regulations and requirements on the LDS canneries. Despite the cutting-edge technologies and state-of-the-art equipment at these ‘clean-room’ quality facilities, federal agencies have been hitting the LDS church with improvised fines for “violations” they find during surprise inspections. Reports of an FBI “raid” at one facility where agents demanded a list of the names of the cannery’s patrons was especially troublesome...

...Why is the federal government going after the LDS Church? There are a number of reasons that come to mind. Obama’s nemesis in the general election was a prominent member of the LDS Church. Members of the church tend to vote in a conservative block. The LDS Church teaches the worship of God and His Son Jesus Christ, independence, morality, education, and family and traditional values–all things that are abhorrent to the current administration, which has proven its willingness to abuse its authority to go after those with whom it disagrees (Romney supporters, patriotic groups, conservatives, Christians, etc.). Also because Obama believes that “Charity” is wholly owned by the government and that churches have no right to participate. The government uses “charity” to gain votes to keep it in power. Thus control of “charity” must be taken from individuals and churches.

This has all come to pass by a socialist President who does not want Americans to be independent of the Federal Government. These services are for members and non-members who have a desire to store for a rainy day. This is not hording as President Obama put it, it is logical thinking and preparing. I personally have a one year storage of food and other items and I have had to a couple times because of loss of employment used from my storage. This is just comment sense but President Obama is trying to make it something it is not.

Numerous members of my Church have worked in volunteer capacities producing food and other necessities. "We now operate 113 storehouses, 63 farms, 105 canneries and home storage centers, 18 food processing and distribution plants, as well as many other facilities. These entities are not money making but are money consuming. My Church does not profit at all from these welfare areas. Obama has made his threat good and now we have shut down several of our canneries thru out the United States. Yes, Religious Freedom is being threatened and obviously the press tried to cover this news and suppress the information.

How then do they operate these storehouses, etc? What revenue do they have that keeps them running? Either they own the buildings or they rent them and if that is the case, where does those monies come from? And who pays the farmers? Etc.

 

[JoStories]

Norman: So, what you are really saying Tom is that all religions are a scam? How do you know for example what percentage of tithing and fast offerings by the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints goes to building Temples, building wards, building stake centers, welfare program. We are not a paid clergy, are Church functions on volunteers and is a not for profit organization whether you want to believe that or not. Our Church does not publically blow there horn when they help with disasters all over the world, it is not money making but money consuming.

What part of tithing is not receiving monies? Monies then used to pay pastors, farmers, etc? That, IMO, is where this whole free from taxation fails. If an entity is receiving money from someone and then using that money to support or pay farmers, for example, who have to themselves pay taxes, why should the LDS church be exempt from that>?