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Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Hey, everyone! Uh, while looking through, as well as posting in, a thread created by @LuisDantas offering a critique of a particular way at approaching other religions, I began to notice that a certain religion was the recurrent target of such critiques, the same religion with which I, as well as a few others on the Forums, identify – The Bahá’í Faith. Having thought about those various criticisms raised concerning a particular way in which some Bahá’ís or I, myself, have approached other religions, I am prepared to open up this thread for any constructive criticisms or questions from (primarily) my Hindu and Buddhist brothers and sisters, though of course, my brothers and sisters who follow other religions (or none) are, as well, more than free to chime in with any questions or constructive criticisms. Additionally, I’m going to give my own thoughtful responses to each. This thread is designed to give me some new methods, some new considerations in my approaching other religions, going back to the quote from the Kitáb-i-Aqdas:

“Consort ye with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship!”

So, have at me....hahahahaha!! Peace and Blessings to one and all.

Would help all involved if you can post an authoritative link to describe the tenants of your religion. I for one have zero understanding. It would keep you from continually having to define and redefine it for everyone.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Would help all involved if you can post an authoritative link to describe the tenants of your religion. I for one have zero understanding. It would keep you from continually having to define and redefine it for everyone.
Hey, @DJ_sXe , would you mind if yours truly, who happens to be an atheistic once-Bahai alumnus, attempted to present a Cliff's Notes version of your religion as a starting point for discussion?

It might be helpful to see what I emphasize, underrepresent and misrepresent in order to better focus on what is wrong in my understanding of the Bahai Faith.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Would help all involved if you can post an authoritative link to describe the tenants of your religion. I for one have zero understanding. It would keep you from continually having to define and redefine it for everyone.
As I remember it, the Bahai Faith is, above all else, fiercerly inclusive. One almost gets the feeling that they would have a crisis of conscience if they somehow learned for certain that some people can't truly feel well received by their faith.

One of their main and most admirable values is the deemphasizing of ethnic and national origins. They truly think of humanity as a giant brotherhood of the equally deserving, and tend to apparently forget outright about national boundaries.

Historically, IIRC they originated in Iran, and IMO it is not too out of the mark to think of them as Shia Islam with adjustments for a new couple of prophets (they will call them Messengers, but in all honesty the distinction is academic) and a short succession of later chairmen, albeit with different titles and less exalted authority.

One of the qualities that they inherited from Islam is the radical sense that ultimately all people are equally deserving and therefore deserve a reaching hand to offer brotherhood. Some twenty years later I still marvel at how deep, beautiful a mark that value leaves in them. We all could learn a lot from them in that regard.

Still, it can't be helped but noticed that they are very much a revealed, Abrahamic religion. They of course see that as a quality as opposed to a disadvantage, as did Islam and Christianity before them. But it puts them in a very awkward position when it comes to their claims about other, non-Abrahamic religions, to the point that I wish they did not claim inspiration from Zoroastrism, Hinduism and Buddhism (which they do). The good will is rather blatant, even embarrassing. The Bahai would like little better than to be acknowledged as brothers in faith of pretty much all religions that they meet, despite the considerable challenges in doing so even with the handful they claim a direct connection to.

They are also highly organized in a political sense. I don't think they are actually a majority in any one country or even city, but despite or perhaps because of that they make a point of keeping regular contact with their peers of the local community. There is a lot of formal decision-making, and a well established hierarchy that ends up at the Universal House of Justice. They have a goal of ultimately establishing an unified global government, which I suppose scares many people. Not me. For one thing, there is no merit to keeping people separate and mistrusting of each other. For another, it will take a lot of demographic growth before the Bahai become a political force capable of such a feat, and odds are that a lot of good will come from the effort before the time comes to wonder if maybe they should be discouraged from it.

They don't really discourage anyone from learning about any other religion, and particularly not about other scriptures. But they tend to be somewhat unaware of how unusual their Abrahamic framework is far as religions in general go, and end up making unadvisable assumptions about other religions. To their merit, they also make a strong effort to correct that flaw. Even so, their practice is very much centered on Abrahamic expectations, on the writings of Bahahullah (sp?) and his successors, and on an often unspoken assumption that most or even all of humanity would embrace or at least support the Bahai Faith if they only understood it well enough.

As religions go, they are probably the finest that Abrahamism has to offer except perhaps for Judaism, which sort of specialized in a different field. They could be a truly great religion, perhaps even greater than Hinduism, if they only learned to rise above the Abrahamic trappings of its own origins. Come to think of it, there must be a few who do, and they must have quite the history to tell. Unfortunately, one quality that the Bahai Faith does not have is the desire to encourage open disagreement with the authority of its founders and figures of authority, from the Bab to the current Universal House of Justice.
 

arthra

Baha'i
For one thing, there is no merit to keeping people separate and mistrusting of each other. For another, it will take a lot of demographic growth before the Bahai become a political force capable of such a feat, and odds are that a lot of good will come from the effort before the time comes to wonder if maybe they should be discouraged from it.

Just a comment... Baha'is don't themselves look to become a "political force capable of such a feat" as we are non-partisan. What we envision is that the rulers and elected representatives in such bodies as the United Nations or other international bodies will in the course of time form a representative world government. You'll recall perhaps that Baha'u'llah addressed the then rulers around 1868 - 1870 to form such a world parliament:

And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation -- that is to say parliaments -- should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority-rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith , p. 291
 

arthra

Baha'i
They could be a truly great religion, perhaps even greater than Hinduism, if they only learned to rise above the Abrahamic trappings of its own origins. Come to think of it, there must be a few who do, and they must have quite the history to tell. Unfortunately, one quality that the Bahai Faith does not have is the desire to encourage open disagreement with the authority of its founders and figures of authority, from the Bab to the current Universal House of Justice.

I don't think as Baha'is we are seeking to be "greater" than Hinduism or "if they only learned to rise above the Abrahamic trappings of its own origins". Baha'is are more active in inter-faith gatherings and look to cooperative efforts with other faith communities to address issues that concern us all.

The International Baha'i community has a NGO status with the United Nations and occasionally makes advisory comments are various issues.

See:

https://www.bic.org/
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I don't think as Baha'is we are seeking to be "greater" than Hinduism
I don't think so either. But if any religion ever managed to merge the Dharmic attitude with a modicum of wisdom and the impressive good will and sincerity of the Bahais... such a feat would be difficult to avoid.

or "if they only learned to rise above the Abrahamic trappings of its own origins". Baha'is are more active in inter-faith gatherings and look to cooperative efforts with other faith communities to address issues that concern us all.
No argument here. Not sure why you quoted me, really.

The International Baha'i community has a NGO status with the United Nations and occasionally makes advisory comments are various issues.

See:

https://www.bic.org/
And a beautiful iniative that is.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Luis ji

arthra said:
I don't think as Baha'is we are seeking to be "greater" than Hinduism

I don't think so either. But if any religion ever managed to merge the Dharmic attitude with a modicum of wisdom and the impressive good will and sincerity of the Bahais... such a feat would be difficult to avoid.

Re Dharma or ''Dharmic attitude'' , ..... there would be no need for any one to suffuse Dharma with ''a modicum of wisdom'' as Dharma apart from being ones duty is wisdom itself , as to understand ones duty one must be inherently wise , ...thus there would be no need to seek to be greater than any other , not on the part of the Hindus nor surely on the part of the Baha'is , ...as wisdom it self is unsurpassable , .....

Surely I am not in competition with any other , nor he with me , ..but certainly we will each rejoice and glorify wisdom where ever it shines , ......this is the true nature of greatness , it is not threatened by any other , it need not it claim authority over another , ....that it exists is enough. where it comes from or where it appears hardly maters , what maters is that it does .

it is this non competative nature that to me renders a religion or a nation great , ..., ...this would be the most fitting and perfect understanding of Dharma , ...to do ones own duty , to do the right thing as per circumstance , without need for competativeness or thought of personal gain , ......

then acting this way , without fear , without competativeness , ...without need for supremacy , simply doing what needs to be done , ....surely this is the attitude of the Bahai ?

thus I canot understand why they should be feared ? or why interfaith dialogue or attitude of acceptance should be a cause for concern ?

nor should their origin be an issue all that maters is the action , or intention , ...the aspiration .
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram DJ_sXe Ji


the link given starts with the quotation , .....
“He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body.”— Bahá’u’lláh

This in many respects is not at variance with much Hindu thought or revealation in that the supreme lord , as the supersoul , the paramatma , rests in the heart of all beings , ...

thus , ...as the same paramatma resides in all beings , should we not share that realisation of God with others even if they call him by another name and focus upon a different aspect of his being , ....

As I am not Baha'i therefore do not have first hand experience or knowledge of your teachings I am curious as to why refference has been made in previous posts to Baha'i being an Abrahamic religion ? ...

Still, it can't be helped but noticed that they are very much a revealed, Abrahamic religion. They of course see that as a quality as opposed to a disadvantage, as did Islam and Christianity before them. But it puts them in a very awkward position when it comes to their claims about other, non-Abrahamic religions, to the point that I wish they did not claim inspiration from Zoroastrism, Hinduism and Buddhism (which they do). The good will is rather blatant, even embarrassing. The Bahai would like little better than to be acknowledged as brothers in faith of pretty much all religions that they meet, despite the considerable challenges in doing so even with the handful they claim a direct connection to.

surely the quote above from Bahá’u’lláh indicates what to me is the higest level of understanding which surpasses individual sects and religions . Personaly I do not see the suggested awkward position ?

I see only the plain but simple truth that must eventualy be realised by all , ...I do not say must in a dictatorial manner but in the sence that beleif in a one primordial being which pervades all is a natural conclusion arived at by the questioning mind that truely searches its own soul , ....

the only problem I see is that the human mind in its naievety seeks to assert its own individuality , ...in this state it canot , or is not ready to accept the eternal nature of the soul and its relationship to God , thus out of fear the mind seeks to inforce differences .
the wisest amongst us be they mesangers or realised beings point repeatedly to the same facts , ...our limited nature , the impermenance and un satisfactory nature of human life , and eternality of the soul , .....are these not conclusions reached by many faiths ?
therefore should we not embrace eachothers understanding of the same ?

Personaly I find Interfaith Dialoge to be not just imensely rewarding , but I feel that if open dialogue about understanding were persued more often that many fears and strife caused by individual insecurities could be desolved , .....

prehaps @DJ_sXe Ji and @arthra Ji might like to expand a little more in the eternal nature of the Soul and its relationship to God from the Baha'i perspective , ....
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
For a Hindu, you are remarkably Abrahamic in beliefs, @ratikala

You certainly seem to have an Abrahamic belief in God as a starting point and work from there.

That is probably a good part of the reason why I can barely understand what you attempt to say me at the best of times.

The other part of the reason seems to be that you assume that I somehow must hold Abrahamic god-beliefs myself even as you talk to me. I often feel like looking over my should to try and see who you are talking to. Because you can't possibly be addressing me with such contents.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Luis ji

For a Hindu, you are remarkably Abrahamic in beliefs, @ratikala

You certainly seem to have an Abrahamic belief in God as a starting point and work from there.

Luis I am Vaisnava , my understanding runs concurrent with Vaisnava beleif ......to my knowledge Abrahamic faiths have no concept of Paramatma this is a Vaisnava understanding , ....

if it 'seems' to you that my beleif is more Abrahamic then prehaps that only an assumption on your part ?


That is probably a good part of the reason why I can barely understand what you attempt to say me at the best of times.

if there is something which you do not understand , please feel free to ask for an explanation , ...after all is this not the purpose of interfaith discussion ?
prehaps rather than assuming it would be more benificial ask for clarification, ...

The other part of the reason seems to be that you assume that I somehow must hold Abrahamic god-beliefs myself even as you talk to me. I often feel like looking over my should to try and see who you are talking to. Because you can't possibly be addressing me with such contents.

here again your assumption does not quite fit with my intention , .....in the post above I am not so much talking to you as comenting on points raised by your self , ....

However the one direct question that I did ask , ....which only you can answer as it was your comment that sparked the question seems to have passed you by , ...

Ratikala , ...... I am curious as to why refference has been made in previous posts to Baha'i being an Abrahamic religion ? ...

prehaps you could expand upon your comment below , .....

Luis , ......Still, it can't be helped but noticed that they are very much a revealed, Abrahamic religion. They of course see that as a quality as opposed to a disadvantage,
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
namaskaram DJ_sXe Ji



the link given starts with the quotation , .....
“He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body.”— Bahá’u’lláh

This in many respects is not at variance with much Hindu thought or revealation in that the supreme lord , as the supersoul , the paramatma , rests in the heart of all beings , ...

thus , ...as the same paramatma resides in all beings , should we not share that realisation of God with others even if they call him by another name and focus upon a different aspect of his being , ....

As I am not Baha'i therefore do not have first hand experience or knowledge of your teachings I am curious as to why refference has been made in previous posts to Baha'i being an Abrahamic religion ? ....

I absolutely agree! God resides within the hearts of everyone!

As for the question of why such references have been made, the Bahá’í Faith is an Abrahamic religion. Yes, indeed! Like the more well-known Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and a few others lesser known, this religion is monotheistic. That's one characteristic which all Abrahamic religions share. Another characteristic, which features more prominently in the more well-known faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), is also featured in the Bahá’í Faith: that of prophets or messengers, individuals who bring the Message of God to people.

the only problem I see is that the human mind in its naievety seeks to assert its own individuality , ...in this state it canot , or is not ready to accept the eternal nature of the soul and its relationship to God , thus out of fear the mind seeks to inforce differences .
the wisest amongst us be they mesangers or realised beings point repeatedly to the same facts , ...our limited nature , the impermenance and un satisfactory nature of human life , and eternality of the soul , .....are these not conclusions reached by many faiths ?
therefore should we not embrace eachothers understanding of the same ?

Personaly I find Interfaith Dialoge to be not just imensely rewarding , but I feel that if open dialogue about understanding were persued more often that many fears and strife caused by individual insecurities could be desolved , .....

prehaps @DJ_sXe Ji and @arthra Ji might like to expand a little more in the eternal nature of the Soul and its relationship to God from the Baha'i perspective , ....

Blessings, ratiji! My apologies for the late reply, and once again, I wholeheartedly agree. To be willing to open your heart and mind to all different religious perspectives, to read and study their various Teachings and Writings, and worship at their places of worship is wonderful. Truly a Godly thing!

Abdu’l-Bahá had once said in Star To The West, vol ix, no.3, p.37:

“All must abandon prejudices and must even go into each others churches and mosques, for in all worshipping places, the Name of God is mentioned. Since all gather to worship God, what difference is there?”

So, to you, and to all my Hindu brothers and sisters, I say, Peace and Blessings!

While our understanding of the soul's relstionship to God is dualistic, according to Bahá’í teachings, the exact nature of the Soul is a mystery:

“Know verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXII)

The exercise of the faculties inherent in the soul is the source from which creativity and inspiration, discovery, and well, ALL KNOWLEDGE flow forth!

‘Abdu’l-Bahá states,

“It [The soul] can discover the realities of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and penetrate the mysteries of existence. All sciences, knowledge, arts, wonders, institutions, discoveries and enterprises come from the exercised intelligence of the rational soul.”

He continues,

‘...there was a time when such realities “were unknown, preserved mysteries and hidden secrets; the rational soul gradually discovered them and brought them out from the plane of the invisible and the hidden into the realm of the visible.”’

(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks)

As for the soul's relationship to God, Bahá’u’lláh says,

“Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved.”

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXII)

Also

“...the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)
 
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arthra

Baha'i
As I am not Baha'i therefore do not have first hand experience or knowledge of your teachings I am curious as to why refference has been made in previous posts to Baha'i being an Abrahamic religion ? ...

Other than this forum and maybe a few others Baha'i Faith is classified as "Abrahamic"... We do accept that Abraham was a Manifestation of God and we also trace the lineage of Baha'u'llah to Keturah who was the third wife of Abraham as mentioned in the Bible.

It's also true that we believe in a series Covenants that go back thousands of years including the Covenant God made with Abraham.

Baha'u'llah also has lineage we believe to Zoroaster through the last Sassanid dynasty of Persia...

So there is both a Semitic and Aryan heritage.

See the following:

http://bahai-library.com/pdf/z/zinky_genealogy.pdf
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Namaskaram Arthra ji , .DJ sXe ji , ...

thank you for your clarifications , .....

As Baha'i would you say that you find it usefull to be clasified as Abrahamic , or do you find that it can lead to missunderstanding ?

especialy as @arthra explains that the liniage can also be traced to Zoroaster, ....

@DJ_sXe also uses the line from Ragupati Raghav Raja Ram , ...

“Isvara Allah tero naam, sab ko sanmati de bhagavan” Isvara Allah is your name , ....

Isvara Allah Tero naam means --- People call you by many names , some call you "Isvara" God while some call you Allah , but you are the one and only Holy Spirit that lay within us , and that we are all equaly dear to you .
Sab ko Sanmati De Bhagvan means --- Bless everyone with the wisdom that we are all of the same Holy Spirit and that we all in our own ways strive towards the path of righteousness and virtue .

this has been a very important understanding in promoting harmony amongst the Hindu traditions and with their close neibours , ......

“...the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.''

(Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXXI)

this sentiment runs concurrent with Dharmic understanding , it is the ''continue to progress'' that interests me , ....to the Dharmic mind this would suggest rebirth ''after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God'' ....whereby the soul takes numerous births in order to perfect its God Consciousness....this is something perhaps not commonly held to by all abrahamic faiths ?
 

arthra

Baha'i
As Baha'i would you say that you find it usefull to be clasified as Abrahamic , or do you find that it can lead to missunderstanding ?

I only found the term "Abrahamic" as a classification on a few forums such as this one... I've never really found the term "Abrahamic" as that "useful" in terms on inter-faith dialogue.

We do accept the Bible as inspired and acknowledge Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad as Manifestations of God and there are numerous citations of the Bible and the Qur'an in the Bible Writings.

http://bahai-library.com/dibdin_bahai_view_bible

http://bahai-library.com/troxel_kitab_iqan_quran
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Namaskaram Arthra ji , .DJ sXe ji , ...

thank you for your clarifications , .....

As Baha'i would you say that you find it usefull to be clasified as Abrahamic , or do you find that it can lead to missunderstanding ?

especialy as @arthra explains that the liniage can also be traced to Zoroaster, ....

@DJ_sXe also uses the line from Ragupati Raghav Raja Ram , ...

“Isvara Allah tero naam, sab ko sanmati de bhagavan” Isvara Allah is your name , ....

Isvara Allah Tero naam means --- People call you by many names , some call you "Isvara" God while some call you Allah , but you are the one and only Holy Spirit that lay within us , and that we are all equaly dear to you .
Sab ko Sanmati De Bhagvan means --- Bless everyone with the wisdom that we are all of the same Holy Spirit and that we all in our own ways strive towards the path of righteousness and virtue .

this has been a very important understanding in promoting harmony amongst the Hindu traditions and with their close neibours , ......

Namaskaram, @ratikala!


I personally consider the classification of my faith as Abrahamic not merely useful, but ideal, given the shared concepts with Judaism, Christianity, and Islam of monotheism and the belief in prophethood. Additionally, there is a high regard given to Abraham in the Bahá’í Faith, as (once again) in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

As for my use of this portion of the bhajan in my signature, that resulted from a sincere hope of mine, namely to build bridges with people of different faiths, and also the basic recognition taught even in our own Scriptures:

“There can be no doubt whatsoever that the peoples of the world, of every race and religion, derive their inspiration from one and the same Heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God....”


So again, ratiji, I absolutely agree with you that fostering harmony and acceptance among the followers of different religions is wonderful and very important, and that such and attitude as the one above can, most assuredly, sow the seeds for it!

Plus, I had discovered that Ghandiji loved this bhajan, as it had reflected his own understanding of other religions that he arrived at, which is, again, not too different from my own. :)

this sentiment runs concurrent with Dharmic understanding , it is the ''continue to progress'' that interests me , ....to the Dharmic mind this would suggest rebirth ''after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God'' ....whereby the soul takes numerous births in order to perfect its God Consciousness....this is something perhaps not commonly held to by all abrahamic faiths ?

As to the progress of the soul in the afterlife, this isn't speaking of reincarnation necessarily, rather it is the progression of the soul towards perfection, thus attaining the Presence of God. This understanding of life after death is actually not common among Abrahamic faiths.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
You can't be two at the same time. Abrahamic as well as Dharmic. Buddhism and Jainism do not accept existence of God and majority of Hindus are polytheists. We just do not gel together with One God, Son, Messenger, Manifestation, Mahdi, etc. Let us pursue our different ways peacefully. I see no harm in this. Why do you insist to have us in your circuit bowing to Bahaullah who is of no concern to us? Abdul=Baha mentioned Hinduism! Do you want to carve out an empire? It means you do not value what Hindus value as equal to yours. Window dressing will not do. We smell a rat.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You can't be two at the same time. Abrahamic as well as Dharmic.
Actually one could, to some extent. But I just don't see how one would come out of it insisting on an Abrahamic perspective and, particularly, on talking about "God" and the importance of believing in its existence left and right.
 
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