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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is what 'Advaita' is. Make any distinction whatsoever, be it religions, people, races, human, animals, vegetation, stones, air, water, and it stops being 'Advaita'. 'Advaita', A - no, dvaita - duality. 'Eko Brahma, dwiteeyo nasti' (Brahman is one, there is no second). And it is not necessary to consider Brahman to be a God. That is how I am an advaitist and atheist.
Not to get into a separate discussion in this area, which fascinates me of course, is that while this not-duality has obvious truth to it (far too deep to get into in this thread), how that is held in someone's mind, or rather in their awareness, can take one from the realization of Unity into imagining that is accomplished or realized in seeing non-distinctiveness as its sole, true nature, to the exclusion of distinction. Nondual realization seems to be one of those things that's a hair's-breadth width wide where how we thinking about it ends up going down two different streams of thought about it after the fact.

Myself, I hold nonduality as a truly paradoxical space that recognizes the sameness and uniqueness simultaneously, in the same breath. It is not one versus the other, in this sense. In how I attempt to talk about it, it is "neither one nor two, nor neither not-one nor not-two." The other side of this "oneness" is to hold it as "not two, but one". That all translates into me holding where that "Oneness" exists as some nondualist schools of Buddhism put it, "Emptiness is not other to form, and form is not other to Emptiness".

I'm honestly not terribly aware how various thought within Advaita aligns with this, but I am absolutely of course more than eager to understand more! Out of curiousity, does anything remotely resembling what we are talking about here exist in Baha'i? Are there any "mystical" practices or lines within it? Or is it pretty much externalized "top down" "I get think I see it", approaches?
 
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Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Not to get into a separate discussion in this area, which fascinates me of course, is that while this not-duality has obvious truth to it (far too deep to get into in this thread), how that is held in someone's mind, or rather in their awareness, can take one from the realization of Unity into imagining that is accomplished or realized in seeing non-distinctiveness as its sole, true nature, to the exclusion of distinction. Nondual realization seems to be one of those things that's a hair's-breadth width wide where how we thinking about it ends up going down two different streams of thought about it after the fact.

Myself, I hold nonduality as a truly paradoxical space that recognizes the sameness and uniqueness simultaneously, in the same breath. It is not one versus the other, in this sense. In how I attempt to talk about it, it is "neither one nor two, nor neither not-one nor not-two." The other side of this "oneness" is to hold it as "not two, but one". That all translates into me holding where that "Oneness" exists as some nondualist schools of Buddhism put it, "Emptiness is not other to form, and form is not other to Emptiness".

I'm honestly not terribly aware how various thought within Advaita aligns with this, but I am absolutely of course more than eager to understand more! Out of curiousity, does anything remotely resembling what we are talking about here exist in Baha'i? Are there any "mystical" practices or lines within it? Or is it pretty much externalized "top down" "I get think I see it", approaches?

Hmmmmmm....very good question, @Windwalker. Uh, non-dualism doesn't feature very heavily in the Bahá’í Faith as it does in Advaita. In terms of mystical practices or lines in our faith, though there is a highly mystical text which was written by Bahá’u’lláh to a Sufi named Shaykh Muhyi'd-Din called
The Seven Valleys and Four Valleys. In it, He chronicles the journey of the soul towards the Beloved One.

Here's an article on the text:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Valleys

If you're interested in reading a bit of it for yourself,

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SVFV/


If you're interested in reading the actual text (in the Persian), see the attached file below:
 

Attachments

  • seven-valleys-four-valleys.pdf
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The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Ya'quub, I meant the four religions which took birth in India. Of course, there are Jews, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrians Indians, no less than any other Indian, many from them have made great sacrifices for India, but these religions did not have their birth in India. I have not included Ahmadiyyas among Indian religions (though Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was an Indian) because they consider themselves to be Muslims. Is my explanation sufficient?

That's not what I was getting at. I would dispute that the various religions captured under the banner 'Hinduism' are actually one religion. But setting that aside, what about the other religions in the Śramaṇa tradition? Or the various indigenous religions of the Adivasi peoples, e.g. Sarna Dhorom or Donyi-Polo? It is not just four religions that took birth in India!
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
All Abrahamic religions are closed-minded

I am conscious that this is supposed to be interfaith discussion rather than interfaith debate (though I'm not sure I really understand the difference!). However, just had to come in here. I think it is correct to say that Abrahamic religions are closed-minded. However, those who call themselves adherents/followers of Abrahamic religions may or may not be closed-minded. So the Baha'i Faith may be a closed-minded religion, but Baha'is aren't necessarily so (and in my experience, they're a pretty open-minded bunch, I have to say :)).
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I am conscious that this is supposed to be interfaith discussion rather than interfaith debate (though I'm not sure I really understand the difference!). However, just had to come in here. I think it is correct to say that Abrahamic religions are closed-minded. However, those who call themselves adherents/followers of Abrahamic religions may or may not be closed-minded. So the Baha'i Faith may be a closed-minded religion, but Baha'is aren't necessarily so (and in my experience, they're a pretty open-minded bunch, I have to say :)).

Really depends on experience, doesn't it. I've met a grand total of 3 Bahais on forums, I think. Hardly representative of an entire faith. The very fact you come on forums skews the statistics (for all faiths) a ton.
 

arthra

Baha'i
It is my belief the solution is not another "parent' figure telling us the "new revelation" for the "current age"! What we truly need, is for all of us to grow up! We need to awaken spiritually and these "revelations" become our normal state of being as we creatively find solutions to our own problems through our own maturity! That's the problem I have with the prophet-model. It perpetuates immaturity. It perpetually demands obedience to external authority, rather than guiding us to take over the role of the parent to be the parent ourselves, to ourselves.

Thanks windwalker... It would be nice if humanity were mature enough to "parent ourselves"... unfortunately I don't find this to be the case...

What I find important in the view I suggested above is that revelations are more suited to the time for which they are revealed is that social, cultural and even economic factors of the respective ages are considered and over time are progressive... and as our capacities increase we can take more and more responsibility for our spiritual and social progress...
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks windwalker... It would be nice if humanity were mature enough to "parent ourselves"... unfortunately I don't find this to be the case...

What I find important in the view I suggested that revelations are more suited to the time for which they are revealed is that social, cultural and even economic factors of the respective ages are considered and over time are progressive... and as our capacities increase we can take more and more responsibility for our spiritual and social progress...
Yes, but here's the problem I brought up. What would help facilitate us growing up enough spiritually? Would perpetuating a dependency on our parents? Would enabling and encouraging that dependency lead to us being mature enough? No, of course not. And just maybe that's the whole point I was making. The "prophet-model", elevating their role to near-deity status makes them untouchable, practically. Nothing you in anything you would be taught from such an elevated, nearly transcendent position could possibly hope aspire to be. It tells you you can't right out of the gate. And that fact alone stops any possibility of growth beyond only a predetermined level, if even allowed to those.

In fact in another thread recently in my talking about "prophecy" I believe it may have been you who shot down your average person with "insights" as not being at all the same as the mere handful of hand-selected prophets by God whom he specially sent to give "revelation". That very image does not teach us by example. It keeps us children, "I will NEVER be like that!". It makes one dependent on the one so far, far above them, and removed for even the remotest possibly. That does not inspire growth, it hobbles you into perpetual dependence.

"Who dares to question your father! You are just a child. You can't question him!" Well, imagine that for your whole life! Part of growing up is in fact realizing our parents are not perfect. We realize they are just plane wrong sometimes. And the act of doing that, is what allows us to begin to think for ourselves! And that is how we become mature adults. Are you ever allow to question the Prophet? Are you allowed to question he maybe actually is just someone like you, fallible and all that, that his inspired thoughts, as important as those are, maybe not be perfect? If not, I'm not entirely sure how you ever hope to find that voice in yourself. You're told that's only for the "special" hand-picked ones.

Here's my real point. We need people to have "revelation" every day! Not only once every 1000 years or so! Society is far, far too dynamic and rapidly changing to depend up one "messenger" every so many thousand years or so. That whole prophet-model rarefies "revelation" and makes up dependent to find "revelation" to material woefully way out of touch with what is current today. Trying to force fit stuff into writings from a thousand years ago hardly constitutes "divine revelation." It's up to us to have the Divine insight here and now.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Emptiness is not other to form, and form is not other to Emptiness".

I'm honestly not terribly aware how various thought within Advaita aligns with this, but I am absolutely of course more than eager to understand more! Out of curiousity, does anything remotely resembling what we are talking about here exist in Baha'i? Are there any "mystical" practices or lines within it? Or is it pretty much externalized "top down" "I get think I see it", approaches?
I do not like the Buddhist statement. It is what I term as 'shabda-jaal' - confusion created by words, a mesh of words. Let me put it in my own way. Is the perceived universe eternal or has arisen out of 'absolute nothing' - 'creatio ex-nihilo'? We do not know that at present. One universe or many-universes. Let us leave it for future generations and future times, perhaps 50 years or a few Centuries, but little possibility of this being answered in my life-time.

------
'Advaita' accepts two realities. A lesser one, the perceived (Pragmatic, Vyavaharika), and the true one (Absolute, Paramarthika). In the lesser one there are differences, in the 'absolute' none. When one travels from understanding the lesser one to the absolute, one does not loose the sight of the lesser one, but acquires a truer view that whatever it may be, all things in the universe are constituted by one single entity. Like atoms making a stone and atoms making a human body. And that, in turn, constituted by 'physical energy'. THAT, for me is BRAHMAN, the force - which created all matter after the Big Bang.

Now in the majority theistic 'advaita', people take that as God, and since you and me are nothing else but that, we too are that. This is mentioned in our Upanisahds as 'Ayamatma Brahman' (This self is Brahman) and 'Tat twam asi' (That is what you are). This is a 3,000 year old philosophy and my marvel at the reach of the people who understood that. In my atheistic version of 'advaita', I say (quoting the Upanishads), 'Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahman' (All things here is Brahman) and 'Eko Sad, dwiteeyo nasti' (What exists is one, there is no second).
------

I do not think you will get a clearer description of 'Advaita' in two paragraphs anywhere else. No mystery, every thing scientific, and no untruth as well.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
However, those who call themselves adherents/followers of Abrahamic religions may or may not be closed-minded.
As other people have said in this topic, if one insists on one God then one is close-minded. Or they should say this - 'In my view there is one God but that does not prohibit other people to believe in or worship more number of Gods, more expounders of truth and more versions of truth than what I accept'. I believe that there is no God but I have no problem with people who have thousands of Gods (the majority of Hindus). It is their view.
Or the various indigenous religions of the Adivasi peoples, e.g. Sarna Dhorom or Donyi-Polo? It is not just four religions that took birth in India!
I agree, they are not Hindus (unless they style themselves as Hindus). We do not even ask about the religion of a person in a census. That is unlawful. I did not specify that because of their small numbers. We have no problem with their continuing in their tradition or accepting any religion under the sun. This is guaranteed to them by Article 25 of the Indian Constitution.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not like the Buddhist statement. It is what I term as 'shabda-jaal' - confusion created by words, a mesh of words.
I think the point in no small part of this is like a Zen Koan. It makes no sense (sounds confusing), and through that it has the effect of deconstructing our wanting to put a hold on reality, which constitutes defining reality as an image of our ideas, what our minds can hold. It's kind of like saying the Absolute is hotcold, or nonexistent existence. That doesn't make sense. It' paradoxical. But then the question is, should it be something we can define? If it can be defined and held by our reasoning logic minds, then our minds must be greater than the Absolute to hold all of it in our understanding! :)

Let me put it in my own way. Is the perceived universe eternal or has arisen out of 'absolute nothing' - 'creatio ex-nihilo'? We do not know that at present. One universe or many-universes. Let us leave it for future generations and future times, perhaps 50 years or a few Centuries, but little possibility of this being answered in my life-time.
I've personally never taken nonduality to be about defining what reality is, but rather an attempt to talk about the paradoxical experience of the Absolute. It's much more about an attempt at a description of That, rather than a definition of that. It's an apprehension, rather than a comprehension.

'Advaita' accepts two realities. A lesser one, the perceived (Pragmatic, Vyavaharika), and the true one (Absolute, Paramarthika). In the lesser one there are differences, in the 'absolute' none. When one travels from understanding the lesser one to the absolute, one does not loose the sight of the lesser one, but acquires a truer view that whatever it may be, all things in the universe are constituted by one single entity. Like atoms making a stone and atoms making a human body. And that, in turn, constituted by 'physical energy'. THAT, for me is BRAHMAN, the force - which created all matter after the Big Bang.
Do you use the language of the lesser as being "relative" reality? I personally like that term "relative" in that it reflects limited and subjective sets of eyes. It is a world filled with relative truths, which are in a sense reflections of Truth itself - which itself is not a propositional truth, not a truth that one can learn, understand or believe in with the mind. That Truth, with a capital T, is Source of the relative, which are partial light, but contain the fullness of that Truth nonetheless, even in the errors and limits of our minds perception. In other words, it's seen but not seen. It's not anywhere other than fully present at all times. To me the apprehension of the Absolute, Realization, is a pulling back of the veil of the illusion of separateness to see that it is all already fully That, but while also being what it is. The flower remains the flower, but is not other to God, or Brahman. It is an expression of the Divine Being, as are we all.

Now in the majority theistic 'advaita', people take that as God, and since you and me are nothing else but that, we too are that. This is mentioned in our Upanisahds as 'Ayamatma Brahman' (This self is Brahman) and 'Tat twam asi' (That is what you are). This is a 3,000 year old philosophy and my marvel at the reach of the people who understood that. In my atheistic version of 'advaita', I say (quoting the Upanishads), 'Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahman' (All things here is Brahman) and 'Eko Sad, dwiteeyo nasti' (What exists is one, there is no second).
------

I do not think you will get a clearer description of 'Advaita' in two paragraphs anywhere else. No mystery, every thing scientific, and no untruth as well.
Thanks, this helps clarify for me.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Here's my real point. We need people to have "revelation" every day! Not only once every 1000 years or so! Society is far, far too dynamic and rapidly changing to depend up one "messenger" every so many thousand years or so.


Thanks for your post Windwalker...

The reality is that these Messengers are not "every day" human beings..at least from what we know historically.... Yes your view of having humans receive divine revelations daily might be quite fascinating but history tells us a different story.
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
If it can be defined and held by our reasoning logic minds, then our minds must be greater than the Absolute to hold all of it in our understanding! :) .. I've personally never taken nonduality to be about defining what reality is, .. Do you use the language of the lesser as being "relative" reality?
There is no question of greater or lesser. We have some hold on Relativity and Quantum mechanics. We have got a glimpse of how things work. It is a matter of more knowledge, more data, more experiments. These are slowly coming up. I do not want a perfect answer just now. If we do that, we land into problems. Let future decide it. Any reason why we should take it as undefinable for all times?

Why this disconnect?If it is true then it should explain our perception and physical universe as well.

I am glad to be corrected. No lesser or greater reality. Both are realities. One that is perceived, the other that we get through discrimation and experiments, and beyond the realm of perception (like the ultraviolet or infra-red spectrum).
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes your view of having humans receive divine revelations daily might be quite fascinating but history tells us a different story.
How can history know without any proof? Was Jesus breathed in by the Ghost into the womb of a virgin Mary? Did Jibreel visit Mohammad in his trance? Did the maiden appear before Bahaullah in Síyáh-Chál? BTW, why did not Allah select his trusted servant Jibreel in this case whom he sent to Mary and Mohammad? Of course, Allah is not bound by what we think. He is all powerful and chose to send a maiden to Bahaullah. That is that.

In Sanskrit, it was said about Aditi having eight suns (Adityas) as sons, though there are twelve months. Taittiriya Samhita of YajurVeda said 'That is it, that is how it is mentioned in the scriptures, and that ends any further discussion. 'iti'. The end). :)
.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thanks for your post Windwalker...

The reality is that these Messengers are not "every day" human beings..at least from what we know historically.... Yes your view of having humans receive divine revelations daily might be quite fascinating but history tells us a different story.
Does it now? I beg to differ.

What I have seen of the revealed religions does not seem to suggest that the wisdom of the revelations of these people you call Messengers is all that exceptional. They may be generally somewhat skilled at presenting their messages in ways that try to make sense for a larger audience, but there is rarely any remarkable difference between the wisdom proper of everyday people with a modicum of intelligence, sincere intention and moral courage and that of your Messengers.

Also, that is at least arguably necessary and a good thing. It would not do to have good messages that can't be well understood by the masses. Not only understood, but also applied with good discernment and the ability to improve on them.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The reality is that these Messengers are not "every day" human beings..at least from what we know historically....
Why do you claim they are not? Everyday humans all have unique gifts and talents. But are all poets? Are all musicians? Are all mathematicians? Are all gifted visionaries? Yet they are all, without exception, human beings. What seems to set certain individuals apart from the rest is simply the degree to which those gifts manifest within them, or rather their responses and pursuits to the spark within them. But even in the most acclaimed geniuses all they are doing is taking a more highly-tuned lens shining on what is available to all of us.

If we focus on the prophet specifically here, I'll make my case.

Let's start first with mystical experiences, and then we'll talk about personality types secondly as well as social and cultural circumstances. Firstly, each and everyone of us has that selfsame Spirit within us. There is no more nor less of God within each us. We each have the same Spirit in the same "measure", so to speak. God, or Spirit is Infinite, it is equal in all. It's not bunched up more over here and less over there, let alone absent anywhere. What the prophet is is first and foremost is a human being who has one or more mystical experiences of God. By mystical experience I am meaning where one accesses this Source of themselves and all that is in a transcendent manner. And by transcendent, I mean a stepping beyond our normal modes of awareness and knowing. They are temporary state-experiences where we become immersed within the divine, beyond our "normal" waking minds. It is a first hand, direct experience.

Humans the world over, everyday, have mystical experiences of God. It is hardly as "rare" as you imagine. These can happen purely spontaneously, or through various practices be cultivated in ourselves to more readily access this which is every-present in ourselves and in the world. Padre Pio said this very well, "Through the study of books one seeks God; by meditation one finds God." Jiddu Krishnamurti said even better, "Enlightenment happens by accident, but meditation makes us more accident-prone." One does not produce or manufacture an experience of God, but rather one simple opens to what is already fully there. That can happen by making ourselves "accident-prone", by learning to be opened, or by some spontaneous opening in ourselves, typically through some sort of crisis point in life where we "let go" sufficiently enough, even for a nanosecond, to let the Light shine in and out of us.

These experiences of God are very common human experiences, not rare at all to the degree you might imagine of only one every several thousand years or so! There is more than ample historical evidence showing this at far more frequency than you imagine. You are talking with someone right now who has these experiences, regularly, daily within meditation practice. There are many others on this site who do as well. The only differences is how people respond and what they do with it. This is where personality comes into play in no small part.

But before the personality part of it with these 'historical" prophets, let's talk about interpretative filters. When someone, such as myself, or or a Jesus, or a Baha'u'llah, or even yourself if and when you have a mystical experience of that order (again, everyone can have these), though they transcend or go beyond our 'normal" experiences and states of consciousness, we do have to after the fact translate them down into what we do currently know and understand of the world, within the available contexts of ways of talking about reality, our "language" about truth and reality, in other words. There's a lot there in that one sentence. What happens is we try to fit it within the language we have available to us, available to our own minds to relate it to in order for us to firstly understand it for ourselves, and then secondly to talk about it with others.

Without getting too technically in depth here as this could easily fill out half a chapter in the book I'm trying to write on these topics, someone living in a world where the ways of understanding and thinking about God is the mythic-world of and external God who sends messengers to speak to people, can easily and most likely will translate and interpret this as the deity of his people choosing him for a special purpose. The "prophet-model" is in effect a "symbol", and what we do in our access and experience of the transcendent Divine, is to talk about it through our available cultural symbols. Now another person having the same type of experience whose time and culture is, say Modernity with its symbols of science and reason, might translate that experience in terms of say, neuroscience. That they had a "prefrontal lobe seizure", or something like that. Someone operating at a Postmodern framework might understand it beyond the "scientific" translation, and so on and so forth. In short, how we talk about it, how we present and speak of God, is going to be reflective of us and our ways of talking about experiences of everything in our lives, including God. God is still God, but how we speak of God does not, nor can, nor should be understood or taken to define God, or to the "the truth" of God. It is our truth of God, relative to ourselves and the culture in which we live.

Now to the "historical prophet" specifically. First, anyone who has mystical experience and an opening of the divine in themselves who are able to articulate that in whatever way they can, especially in inspired and inspiring ways to others, is a prophet. To prophecy simply means to speak from that place of Divine inspiration. There are many, many prophets like this, who speak in many ways, uniquely, but all from the same Source of inspiration. What sets apart the "historical prophet", as I'll call them here, is simply.... a matter of history! :) What I mean by this is that that particular person, doing what they all do to one degree or another, had a message that seemed to "catch on" better. How they translated and spoke about their experiences, coming from their own relative context within their culture, seemed to meet the current need of that culture. In other words, the way they applied it through their own immersion with the culture seemed to "stick better" for the culture and society at that time. They then became "the prophet" of the age, only because the people who popularized him made him that! They mythologized him, for themselves. They turned him into a symbol!

Now he becomes singled out and revered, and thus goes down in history standing out from all the others who fell into obscurity because culture largely forgot or didn't include them in their collective memories, which only serves to mythologize that one prophet all the more. He becomes then a cultural symbol. He represents a people. He represents an ideal. He represents God. And when people within that culture have a mystical experience themselves, they may in fact see their prophet in a vision, because as I said, we "translate mystical experience" utilizing the symbols available to us. The Christian may see Jesus, or Mary. The Jew, Moses or Elijah (Jesus's disciples as Jews saw them), the Hindu may see Krishna or some other Avatar, the Buddhist may see Chenrezig, and so forth. They are "historical prophets", as I'm choosing to distinguish them because they are the ones culture elevated above the rest. They are the ones who pinned the medal on them, not God. :)

And lastly, the personalities of the prophets come into play when it comes to the degree of impact they have on their culture. Some are very much like CEOs, ambitious and driven, with a force of personality that stands out head and shoulders above the pack. So when they have their vision, they may interpret that as themselves specifically being called by God to go save the world. And they take the force of the personality and drive, convinced by their mystical experience they are the ones to save the world. Say hello to a John the Baptist type. There are plenty of these types strewn throughout history as well. I could name several from the last century alone. Other prophet's are humble and meek, but their message of love resonates with others to the need they have, and so they become revered as the ideal prophet. Say hello to Jesus now. And so on and so forth.

But again, with all of them, with all of the rest of us, when we dip into the Water of the Divine, it is the same Water. And we all drink of it everyday. Everyone does. How clearly, or how deeply one sees into that Water is a matter of where that individual is at that time in their lives along with their own desire to drink of that freely and readily. How history remembers them is a matter of what mattered most to them at the time of that Divine Light that shone through that one individual that met something to them. That same Light shines out in everyone, at all times, to all people, to all living things, to all reality. It is never hidden. But people only see what they do because of what they are willing or capable of seeing, ready to see at that time.

Prophecy, Divine Revelation is in every single second of every single day. It is not the individual who is called out from the rest. We are all called. The "shame" of it is that we deny God shining and speaking through everyone and everything in singling out individuals as "above" the rest. That is our idea of God, not God's idea of Himself. :)

Yes your view of having humans receive divine revelations daily might be quite fascinating but history tells us a different story.
Only because that's how you choose to see it.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Also, that is at least arguably necessary and a good thing. It would not do to have good messages that can't be well understood by the masses. Not only understood, but also applied with good discernment and the ability to improve on them.
Interestingly, I touched upon this in my long post this morning. I didn't expand much upon it, but as an interesting footnote to what you said here, when I spoke of what makes the prophet a "historical prophet" is exactly what you said here and that is "mass appeal". Other prophets (I'm talking those with mystical experiences, not just strong religious reformation or social visions which is taken by the masses as Divine inspiration), have audiences as well. But they may be rather too esoteric for most, to far above their heads or reach. It would be only a small subset of individuals who hear and are inspired by them. But history "forgets" them because they didn't go down historically as the "founding figure" of a religion, mythologized into godhood, simply by virtual of appealing to the largest demographic who created an icon out of them.

When it comes to the largest demographic, that is typically the least bleeding edge revelatory message. It appeals to the "average", just a little, small reach up for them, slightly above them, which as you say with hope opens them to keep going beyond the prophet himself. That it takes several hundred years, if not a thousand years or more for people to actually realize it in themselves to me says more about an inherent problem with the religious systems that promote this "revelation"! Are we really that thick, or do we have bad teachers? I tend to think it's the latter, and not the former.
 
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The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
As other people have said in this topic, if one insists on one God then one is close-minded.

I quite agree. I did not say otherwise.

Or they should say this - 'In my view there is one God but that does not prohibit other people to believe in or worship more number of Gods, more expounders of truth and more versions of truth than what I accept'. I believe that there is no God but I have no problem with people who have thousands of Gods (the majority of Hindus). It is their view.

And this was my point. There are some people who call themselves Baha'is, or Christians, or Muslims (not to mention of course adherents of the multitude of Hindu religions), who do not seem to have a problem saying this (I am not saying I am one of them).
 

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
I did not specify that because of their small numbers.

But how can you ascertain that they have small numbers if you do not ask about the religion of the people in a census?

If one considers the size of the Ho, Munda, Santhal and similar communities, some of whom at least profess Sarna Dhorom (to take just one example of an indigenous Adivasi religion), it seems entirely plausible that the number of adherents of Sarna Dhorom might compare favourably with the number of adherents of Jainism. Given that there are, what, over 100 million Adivasi peoples in India (across a large number of different ethnicities), some with shared religions, which might therefore have quite large numbers of adherents, and others with their own unique religions, with respect, I would argue that to suggest that there are (just) four religions which had their origins in India is doing a huge disservice to the great diversity of religions that have emerged in the land that is India, not to mention to the many peoples of India whose religions fall outside the usual four (whatever the size of their population).
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
But how can you ascertain that they have small numbers if you do not ask about the religion of the people in a census?
There was a petition in our Supreme Court as to why people should be counted on the basis of religion in a secular society. The Court accepted that plea and since then, in Census, identity papers (passport etc.), admissions to educational institutions, applications for jobs, etc., asking for a person's religion is unconstitutional in India.

An old count put the number of tribal population at 7.5% (I think it is from 1931 Census), and these many people are getting the benefit of 'affirmative action' since independence. Only Hindus are eligible for that because they had caste distinctions. Muslims and Christians said that there is no caste distinction in their society, therefore they were not included.

The actual reason for that petition, which was inspired by the ruling Nehru-Gandhi-dynasty party, was to hide the decreasing percentage of Hindus and increasing percentage of Muslims (mostly by illegal migration from Bangladesh) and Christians (conversions) in India. A religious census was permitted in 2011 by the parliament to ascertain the economic condition of different sections of the society. In 1951, Hindus made 84.1% of the population, now they constitute 79.8%). During the same period Muslim population has increased from 9.8% to 14.2%.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_India#Statistics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_religions_in_India
 
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