A Universe from Nothing?

[godnotgod]

I agree, there is a fundamental dishonesty involved. New-agers are the worst offenders because they misrepresent both science AND traditional religious teachings.

Whew! Thank Consciousness that I am not a new ager!

 

[godnotgod]

"As Hagelin speculated" would be accurate. I wish you would stop dressing up beliefs and speculations as facts.

I also wish you would stop dumping in jargony expressions like "Pure Abstract Intelligence" without explaining what they are actually supposed to mean. Or even better, start using Plain English, drop the pretentious jargon, start expressing your ideas clearly and succinctly. Stop expecting the rest of us to be mind-readers, stop being so egocentric.

No, as Hagelin stated. Hagelin also is a mystic as well as a physicist, so is speaking from direct experience and realization.

Use your noggin: Pure Abstract Intelligence is what it says.

 

[viole]

No, as Hagelin stated. Hagelin also is a mystic as well as a physicist, so is speaking from direct experience and realization.

Use your noggin: Pure Abstract Intelligence is what it says.

Abstract intelligence? i agree on the former. Not sure about the latter.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ak.yonathan]

Why are you sure?

The box analogy is flawed.

The things IN the Universe that are apparently conscious are what comprise the Universe itself, along with everything else. There are no such things that are separate from the Universe. The Universe is itself Consciousness, expressing itself as 'The Universe'. So it is not exactly that 'things are conscious', like a rock, for example; what is manifesting the rock as 'rock' is consciousness.

Well, if the universe was conscious wouldn't it have feelings, wouldn't it be trying to meet an end goal or something like that, just like what conscious beings are doing? Nothing in physics says that is how the universe behaves. Personally I think that that theory is just us projecting ourselves onto things which have no business being conscious.

 

[ArtieE]

Does one focus one's consciousness when learning a language?

In post 2045 you wrote: "Are YOU conscious? If so, where does your consciousness end and the unconscious universe begin?" So who's the "one" here who focuses?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Just because the universe contains consciousness doesn't mean that it itself is conscious. Just because a box holds apples in it doesn't mean that the box is an apple itself. I have to admit I don't know where the boundary lies but I'm sure there is one.

The analogy is flawed...consciousness is an aspect of the universe....whereas apples are not an aspect of boxes...

A question...from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arise?

 

[godnotgod]

In post 2045 you wrote: "Are YOU conscious? If so, where does your consciousness end and the unconscious universe begin?" So who's the "one" here who focuses?

Consciousness, without an agent of consciousness. I am using the terms 'you' and 'one' an 'i' only conventionally.

 

[gnostic]

Except that there is no such agent of intelligence/consciousness called 'I'. You yourself stated that 'I' was an illusion of the chemical processes of the brain, which ends at death. I disagree that 'I'is the product of brain chemistry, which has not been demonstrated. It is the product of consciousness, which is not dependent upon the brain.

Your definition does not say "the ability of someone to acquire and apply knowledge and skills."

The Universe acquires and applies knowledge and skills all the time. It has evolved from a singularity to what we now see and experience.

Somehow, a single blade of grass can manufacture it's own food without having a brain, something we have no concept as to how large or complex a brain we would require to accomplish the same task.

Is there a 'water whirler' called 'whirlpool' that whirls water? No. There is only whirling water, caused by gravity and other factors beyond what you call 'whirlpool', just as there are factors beyond what you call 'I' to what you only think 'you' do, and why the Hindus say: 'There is no self or other; there is no doer', and why Buddhism says that:

'form is emptiness;
emptiness is form'

Nothing what you have stated here about the universe, singularity, blade of grass, whirlpool, show evidences that they require consciousness to exist, to happen, to work.

All you are trying to do, is to throw us back to stone ages, where primitive people who didn't understand nature, use their superstitions and believe that spirits or gods exist in the sun, moon, stars, in every mountains, river, trees, crops, etc...except that instead of calling "spirits" or "gods", you are calling them "consciousnesses".

How is this consciousness any better than of the Abrahamic God, or that of the Olympian pantheon, or the Norse Aesir, the Shinto Kami, etc.

This cosmic consciousness that you believe in required as much blind faith as any other religions...you are wishing that these exist, and you are twisting science to fit in with your set of belief. It is no better than pseudoscience Discovery Institute's propaganda on Intelligent Design.

You are saying that ego "I" is illusion, and just about everything not controlled by the all-pervading Consciousness as illusions.

Sorry, but this Consciousness controlling the cosmos, the quantum mechanics, nature, etc, sounds every bit a belief in illusion, except that you are self-denial.

No where in the theories of Newtonian Mechanics, Relativity or Quantum Mechanics, the very theoretical and hypothetical singularity (or other theoretical physical cosmological models), mention anything about Consciousness.

Your cosmic Consciousness bears a great deal of resemblance to the debunked Intelligent Design, and they keep beating repeatedly dead horse, no matter how many times their pseudoscience claims get "refuted".

The only differences between the Discovery Institute and your set of beliefs is that it has root in Christian creationism, but you are using Buddhism to empower your own personal dogma, not realising that it is your maya that's blinding you.

 

[gnostic]

The analogy is flawed...consciousness is an aspect of the universe....whereas apples are not an aspect of boxes...

A question...from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arise?

Do you have scientific sources to support this maya of yours?

And please don't give me that link that godnogod uses, a YouTube on the pseudoscience "non-locality".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Do you have scientific sources to support this maya of yours?

And please don't give me that link that godnogod uses, a YouTube on the pseudoscience "non-locality".

What maya....please quote my precise words to which you refer as maya?

And you replied to my post but did not attempt to answer the question....from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arise?

 

[godnotgod]

Nothing what you have stated here about the universe, singularity, blade of grass, whirlpool, show evidences that they require consciousness to exist, to happen, to work.

All you are trying to do, is to throw us back to stone ages, where primitive people who didn't understand nature, use their superstitions and believe that spirits or gods exist in the sun, moon, stars, in every mountains, river, trees, crops, etc...except that instead of calling "spirits" or "gods", you are calling them "consciousnesses".

How is this consciousness any better than of the Abrahamic God, or that of the Olympian pantheon, or the Norse Aesir, the Shinto Kami, etc.

This cosmic consciousness that you believe in required as much blind faith as any other religions...you are wishing that these exist, and you are twisting science to fit in with your set of belief. It is no better than pseudoscience Discovery Institute's propaganda on Intelligent Design.

You are saying that ego "I" is illusion, and just about everything not controlled by the all-pervading Consciousness as illusions.

Sorry, but this Consciousness controlling the cosmos, the quantum mechanics, nature, etc, sounds every bit a belief in illusion, except that you are self-denial.

No where in the theories of Newtonian Mechanics, Relativity or Quantum Mechanics, the very theoretical and hypothetical singularity (or other theoretical physical cosmological models), mention anything about Consciousness.

Your cosmic Consciousness bears a great deal of resemblance to the debunked Intelligent Design, and they keep beating repeatedly dead horse, no matter how many times their pseudoscience claims get "refuted".

The only differences between the Discovery Institute and your set of beliefs is that it has root in Christian creationism, but you are using Buddhism to empower your own personal dogma, not realising that it is your maya that's blinding you.

It would be helpful if you understood how to at least utilize basic logic. However, as your arguments stand, they are a hodge-podge tangle of nitwit notions linked together that do not make any real sense, based more on emotion than on logic. However, I will attempt to untangle some of this mess a bit at a time as we go along, but not at the moment.

 

[godnotgod]

And please don't give me that link that godnogod uses, a YouTube on the pseudoscience "non-locality".

Heaven forbid that the Sun should rise before you get back into your coffin!
Are you afraid of crosses and garlic too?

FYI, the SCIENTIFIC experiment described in that video is based on a published document in Physics Essays. If you really are honest, you will take a look at it, here:

http://www.deanradin.com/FOC2014/Grinberg1994.pdf

Now get back in your coffin before the Sun shrivels something up and it dies.

 

[gnostic]

What maya....please quote my precise words to which you refer as maya?

And you replied to my post but did not attempt to answer the question....from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arise?

Maya as in "illusion".

 

[gnostic]

Heaven forbid that the Sun should rise before you get back into your coffin!
Are you afraid of crosses and garlic too?

FYI, the SCIENTIFIC experiment described in that video is based on a published document in Physics Essays. If you really are honest, you will take a look at it, here:

http://www.deanradin.com/FOC2014/Grinberg1994.pdf

Now get back in your coffin before the Sun shrivels something up and it dies.

Oh...that's very funny. (...Not!)

How I despise vampire movies, tv series and novels, not because they are scary, because people have pick, pick and pick at this genre to death.

Novelists, screen writers, producers keep overusing the same theme ad nauseam; they lack imagination that they must repeatedly revisit the scene.

How many times must they bring out Dracula from the closet, before they say "Enough is enough"?

The same thing is going on with zombies.

PS

Crosses are just trinkets to me, symbolising in some Christian faith that I no longer follow, doesn't make me a vampire. I find the whole cross-fearing vampires to be absurd.

And being Chinese, I like my garlic, ginger and other herbs in my stir-frys, on my salmons, in my garlic prawns and in my garlic breads, way too much to fear garlic. Another absurdity to vampire myth.

But I do have a confession to make...I love seeing Kate Beckinsale in Underworld, not because she plays a vampire assassin, but because she's a major hottie, when she's wearing black and have pistols in her hands.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Maya as in "illusion".

I know what maya means....but I did not mention maya. You quoted my post to ak yonathan which said...."The analogy is flawed...consciousness is an aspect of the universe....whereas apples are not an aspect of boxes... A question...from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arises"

Where in that post is maya mentioned?

 

[godnotgod]

Oh...that's very funny. (...Not!)

How I despise vampire movies, tv series and novels, not because they are scary, because people have pick, pick and pick at this genre to death.

Novelists, screen writers, producers keep overusing the same theme ad nauseam; they lack imagination that they must repeatedly revisit the scene.

How many times must they bring out Dracula from the closet, before they say "Enough is enough"?

The same thing is going on with zombies.

PS

Crosses are just trinkets to me, symbolising in some Christian faith that I no longer follow, doesn't make me a vampire. I find the whole cross-fearing vampires to be absurd.

And being Chinese, I like my garlic, ginger and other herbs in my stir-frys, on my salmons, in my garlic prawns and in my garlic breads, way too much to fear garlic. Another absurdity to vampire myth.

But I do have a confession to make...I love seeing Kate Beckinsale in Underworld, not because she plays a vampire assassin, but because she's a major hottie, when she's wearing black and have pistols in her hands.

Oh, man, you missed the point, which is that the nonlocality video you spurned revealed, via science, that the brain is capable of nonlocal communication. Don't be afraid of the Sun.

Being Chinese, you should really avail yourself of some of its wonderful mystical teachings such as Taoism and Chan. Have you read the Tao te Ching? If you do, digest slowly. A real treasure.

 

[gnostic]

Oh, man, you missed the point, which is that the nonlocality video you spurned revealed, via science, that the brain is capable of nonlocal communication. Don't be afraid of the Sun.

Being Chinese, you should really avail yourself of some of its wonderful mystical teachings such as Taoism and Chan. Have you read the Tao te Ching? If you do, digest slowly. A real treasure.

I am not sure f I stated here, or in another thread, but I have said that there are "no consciousness", "no mind", "no ego" and "no emotion" without the brain. And I still think that's true.

What I didn't say is this:

The brain can control the communication, whether it be through any one of the perceptions or senses, or through intuitions.

My problems are not with human communication. So how we communicate and if we are conscious to the "communicating" is not really my point.

I truly don't give crap about your nonlocality communication, because it doesn't address the issue about the consciousness I was talking about.

No, my issue is with your belief is that the universe is "conscious", the so-called "cosmic consciousness". I have no interests in local or nonlocal communication between one person to another, hence I think your YouTube video is rubbish.

• What I am interested in why you think or believe that the universe is conscious?
• How does the universe be self-aware?
• Do you have evidences that the universe is conscious?

The video don't even come close to answering my questions, OR validating your claim about the universe being conscious.

To give you an example, you wrote:

The things IN the Universe that are apparently conscious are what comprise the Universe itself, along with everything else. There are no such things that are separate from the Universe. The Universe is itself Consciousness, expressing itself as 'The Universe'. So it is not exactly that 'things are conscious', like a rock, for example; what is manifesting the rock as 'rock' is consciousness.

Yes, there are "things" that are conscious, like us humans on earth. I don't know if there other life in other planets, but it is quite possible and probable, but let's stick to what we can and explain rather than worry about other planets...but I getting sidetracked here.

And yes, this planet is part of the universe. But just because we are self-aware and conscious, doesn't in any prove your that the universe is also self-aware and conscious.

You are making leap with this between our consciousnesses and the universe.

ak.yonathan made an apt and very valid point with box-filled-with-apples analogy, doesn't mean the box itself is an apple.

Just because the universe contains consciousness doesn't mean that it itself is conscious. Just because a box holds apples in it doesn't mean that the box is an apple itself. I have to admit I don't know where the boundary lies but I'm sure there is one.

...but apparently you think it does. You seemed to think the apples and box are one and the same, just as you think the universe and consciousness are one and the same. You think the universe is conscious because you are conscious.

That's simply you projecting your belief on the universe. That's you thinking all your argument is real and true, but what you really have don't is create your own illusions.

You have not brought a single logic in this thread, just your own delusion of superiority and grandeur...and yet you think the ego "I" as an illusion.

Hate to break to you, godnotgod, but the whole point of Buddhism is letting that ego go, but from what I can see you are as egotistic as they come. You have not close to reaching bodhi, especially when you keep bagging me about sun, garlic and coffin.

 

[gnostic]

The analogy is flawed...consciousness is an aspect of the universe....whereas apples are not an aspect of boxes...

A question...from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arise?

Do you have scientific sources to support this maya of yours?

And please don't give me that link that godnogod uses, a YouTube on the pseudoscience "non-locality".

I know what maya means....but I did not mention maya. You quoted my post to ak yonathan which said...."The analogy is flawed...consciousness is an aspect of the universe....whereas apples are not an aspect of boxes... A question...from whence does the ordering principle of consciousness arises"

Where in that post is maya mentioned?

I am not talking about you mentioning maya itself, but with your point when you wrote this:

consciousness is an aspect of the universe....

That's what I think is maya or "illusion".

You given a definite statement when use the word "is"; not "probably", not "maybe".

When you wrote "is an aspect", then I would like to know - How do you know he universe has "consciousness" or at the very least "an aspect of" it?

How do you know what you are clearly positively claiming is not an illusion?

 

[james bond]

Here. Read, esp. the section on Paul and the Mystery Religions:

http://30ce.com/

Essentially, Paul overwrote the teachings of Yeshua the Nazarene with those of Mithra AS A CLEVER DEVICE TO CONVERT THOUSANDS INTO HIS NEW RELIGION. The inner spiritual practices of the Jewish mystical cult known as the Nazarenes had no wide appeal to Rome. The new doctrine, which only required that one submit to Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior, did not require that the initiate had to know anything. It was a slam dunk and you were saved. This had widespread appeal to Rome and Constantine as a means of political control over the populace.

The Church did much the same thing in Mexico when it 'adopted' the Aztec goddess of fertility known as 'Tonantzin' and converted her into Our Lady of Guadalupe Hidalgo AS A CLEVER DEVICE TO CONVERT SOME 2 MILLION INDIGENOUS INDIOS INTO CHRISTIANITY!. The Indios simply followed where their goddess dwelt, as theirs was a matriarchal culture.

>>And it all came from nothing !<<

Unfortunately, it's not going back into nothing. He is one who dwells in the kingdom of darkness.

I know better than to ask a New Age religionist and pagan a question about Jesus. It was rhetorical. Your views are entwined in the bizarre and counterfeit that you cannot possibly listen nor understand the genuine Jesus. At least, I tried to listen to what you were saying, but it is pointless. You are one full of the counterfeit bible, deception, delusions and strangeness.

 

[YmirGF]

But I do have a confession to make...I love seeing Kate Beckinsale in Underworld, not because she plays a vampire assassin, but because she's a major hottie, when she's wearing black and have pistols in her hands.

You and me, both, man. Kate rocks... I've loved her ever since this intro...