Question on Intelligent Design

[Bird123]

Hmm


I see it differently. We are intelligent human beings and when we see ourselves (with or without god) and who we are, we leave the ego and live our values. While we may have limitations on how to do this-maybe we don't have discipline or maybe finances are keeping us in a rut--and the motivation to do the how, with or without god, the ego will fade and we will be who we are to ourselves and/or our community.

I learned this really from reflection, meditation, and prayer. In different views and practices I've gone through so far in my life, I really got different perspectives of how people live their values and even more so not saying "this is right and that is wrong." This is without god, though.



Let me ask, though. I don't see humans as special any more than I do a Zebra or a Philodendron plant. To me, seeing us as special is ego compared to the huge universe we are not even one percent a part of.

If you did not believe in god, why would you not consider yourself special?

If you do consider yourself special, if you didn't believe in god, what is your basis in comparison? What logic in the universe that would make humanity special than anything else outside the world and beyond?

I ask this because not everyone believes in god. God isn't universal. So, if what you are saying is true, it can be explained without belief in god and referring to him.



That is the key "people place limits on themselves." People are not limited in an of themselves because we do exactly what we are "supposed" to do as humans. Our bodies can only do but so much for a reason. We are born, live, age, and pass away. Wanting to live forever is one of many ways people want to be limitless. Yet, that's how our bodies and minds function. That's basically cheating nature to say something is timeless and linear with some sort of destination that if true, should be apparent for all people to know not just the religious.

The bible does teach god does not take light of sin. He killed people because of sin. It may be an over exaggeration to say he is wrath; and, the point is still the same. If he wasn't, why would he, in christian view, need to bring someone to save believers? Maybe you're deciding to see the nice side of him. That's okay. I mean, I can see the nice side of my parent but that doesn't mean my parent doesn't have an angry side if I acted up.



That is the reason for the OP. The word intelligence (the word itself) is used for human beings. Once you use it for intelligent design or intelligent universe, you lose me. It's metaphysics talk. Spiritualist use it but then we use "god of our own understanding" as well.

It's not limited, it's ignorance. I honestly don't know what you guys mean by anything other than the human mind being intelligent.



That's an oxymoron. Nothing wrong with chaos. That's how the whole world works. When someone develop cancer, that is part of how the body works. If it were designed and no chaos, our bodies wouldn't develop diseases on its own. Seizures are the same way. If everything was designed, then no one would have seizures. I have epilepsy, and I know 100 percent daily that seizures cannot be predicted nor is there order to them. (I wish I can set it on my monthly calendar.)

Feelings like seizures (since they both have to do with neurons in the brain) are unpredictable too. I have seizures in the right temporal lobe and frontal lobe. These (the temporal lobe) affect my emotions. Even when I don't have actual seizures, I still have emotional roller coasters that are normal for the body in and of itself but, because it disrupts my life, that is the only reason why it's treaded with medication. If it didn't harm my life and disrupt it, there'd be no reason to treat seizures since they aren't harmless in and of themselves (the ones I have).

Yet, it's choas. Nothing wrong with that.

Let me ask, why do you need order in chaos?



We have different perspectives, yes. If we take ourselves out of the picture, it's a mess. Life does what it does and if seizures occur in life it doesn't skip a beat nor is there anyone there to diagnose them. Yet, when we see life as a masterpiece (or see heaven or god or so have you) anyhing as perfect, then we take out the reality of life-unpredicability and death--and make it how we want it to be. Nothing wrong with that. Every religion has their view of what they want life to be today and/or in the afterlife.

Just I find it in GOA religions somewhat odd to have these concepts depended on a spirit or being that was not once a human or anything living.



True. I wish I had the advantage of controlling my feelings through thought as many can; but, mine is medical.

However, if I turned the tables, my not being able to control my emotions is just part of life just as people who can. No "order" we are just in different boats going different directions. Just some people think they are getting to a destination by hoping for land to appear. Others know they are in the middle of the atlantic and there is no land near by so they stopped st and enjoy the scenery and let nature take its course.

Both cases are fine just the former takes too much energy and thinking. People bend over backwards trying to figure if god exist. I never done that. When I found out what god was, it just clicked and never went back to the idea of god sense.

Shrugs.

Yes, I would say people are all special, however animals and insects are children of God too. They are just as special. I can't say about plants even though some do seem to have intelligence.

We want to live forever simply for one reason. We are all spiritual beings in our true natures. We are Eternal by nature. Our physical bodies might be our transportation but is in no way natural to who we really are.

You do not understand. God isn't about nice. God is about intelligence. What is the most intelligent way to do things. There you will find God.

There are good reasons for disease. That is why it exists. It has purpose.

There is no need for chaos to have order. It simply does when one fully understands what exactly is going on. When one sees it clearly, there is order.

 

[godnotgod]

My consciousness state does not stop at my skull, nor start there, which is bone.

So to be clear: your consciousness extends beyond your skull? Is that what you're saying?

 

[godnotgod]

You misunderstand me. Math is not the source. Everything fits mathematically. Things like emotions, random chance and even quantum physics all add completely when one has knowledge at a certain level.

The Source is far from nothing.

Oh? Then it is .....'something'?

I think that by saying 'it all comes down to math', you meant that everything can be explained in terms of math. I disagree. Math does not tell us what the nature of Reality actually is.

 

[shawn001]

Oh? Then it is .....'something'?

I think that by saying 'it all comes down to math', you meant that everything can be explained in terms of math. I disagree. Math does not tell us what the nature of Reality actually is.

Describing Nature With Math
How do scientists use mathematics to define reality? And why?

• How is it possible that mathematics, a product of human thought that is independent of experience, fits so excellently the objects of reality?

—Albert Einstein

"If you're like me, you understand readily how one can describe nature's wonders using poetry or music, painting or photography. Wordsworth's "I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud" and Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" richly depict their natural subjects, as do Monet's water lilies and Ansel Adams' photos of Yosemite. But mathematics? How can you describe a tree or cloud, a rippled pond or swirling galaxy using numbers and equations?"

"Extremely well, as Einstein knew better than most, of course. In fact, most scientists would agree that, when it comes to teasing out the inherent secrets of the universe, nothing visual, verbal, or aural comes close to matching the accuracy and economy, the power and elegance, and the inescapable truth of the mathematical.

How is this so? Well, for the math-challenged, for that person who has avoided anything but the most basic arithmetic since high school, who feels a pit in his stomach when he sees an equation—that is, for myself—I will attempt to explain, with the help of some who do mathematics for a living. If you're math-phobic, too, I think you'll get a painless feel for why even that master of describing nature with words, Thoreau, would hold that "the most distinct and beautiful statements of any truth must take at last the mathematical form."

Describing Nature With Math — NOVA | PBS

Quantum Questions Inspire New Math

How Quantum Theory Is Inspiring New Math | Quanta Magazine

 

[shawn001]

So to be clear: your consciousness extends beyond your skull? Is that what you're saying?

How many times now have you asked the same question that I have answered repeatedly.

What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

 

[shawn001]

Yes, I would say people are all special, however animals and insects are children of God too. They are just as special. I can't say about plants even though some do seem to have intelligence.

We want to live forever simply for one reason. We are all spiritual beings in our true natures. We are Eternal by nature. Our physical bodies might be our transportation but is in no way natural to who we really are.

You do not understand. God isn't about nice. God is about intelligence. What is the most intelligent way to do things. There you will find God.

There are good reasons for disease. That is why it exists. It has purpose.

There is no need for chaos to have order. It simply does when one fully understands what exactly is going on. When one sees it clearly, there is order.

Again, the universe over time is going from more orderly to less orderly and we were created in that disorder.

"It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics."

Life in the Universe

"There are good reasons for disease. That is why it exists. It has purpose."

Population control?

 

[godnotgod]

Describing Nature With Math
How do scientists use mathematics to define reality? And why?

• How is it possible that mathematics, a product of human thought that is independent of experience, fits so excellently the objects of reality?

—Albert Einstein

"If you're like me, you understand readily how one can describe nature's wonders using poetry or music, painting or photography. Wordsworth's "I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud" and Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" richly depict their natural subjects, as do Monet's water lilies and Ansel Adams' photos of Yosemite. But mathematics? How can you describe a tree or cloud, a rippled pond or swirling galaxy using numbers and equations?"

"Extremely well, as Einstein knew better than most, of course. In fact, most scientists would agree that, when it comes to teasing out the inherent secrets of the universe, nothing visual, verbal, or aural comes close to matching the accuracy and economy, the power and elegance, and the inescapable truth of the mathematical.

How is this so? Well, for the math-challenged, for that person who has avoided anything but the most basic arithmetic since high school, who feels a pit in his stomach when he sees an equation—that is, for myself—I will attempt to explain, with the help of some who do mathematics for a living. If you're math-phobic, too, I think you'll get a painless feel for why even that master of describing nature with words, Thoreau, would hold that "the most distinct and beautiful statements of any truth must take at last the mathematical form."

Describing Nature With Math — NOVA | PBS

Quantum Questions Inspire New Math

How Quantum Theory Is Inspiring New Math | Quanta Magazine

Definitions of Reality are not Reality itself.

 

[godnotgod]

How many times now have you asked the same question that I have answered repeatedly.

What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

Answer the question: Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull? A simple question you continue to skirt around.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, I would say people are all special, however animals and insects are children of God too. They are just as special. I can't say about plants even though some do seem to have intelligence.

How are we special?

Compared to the vastness of the universe, we're, well, nothing.

We want to live forever simply for one reason. We are all spiritual beings in our true natures. We are Eternal by nature. Our physical bodies might be our transportation but is in no way natural to who we really are.

I honestly feel that's an illusion to feel solace so one wouldn't die.

Until we are comfortable with physical and thereby spiritual death, we'd always be yearning but never get anywhere. It's a waste of energy.

You do not understand. God isn't about nice. God is about intelligence. What is the most intelligent way to do things. There you will find God.

If god isn't about nice (and not nice) then there'd be no sin.

As for intelligence, I do not understand what that means when applied to god. Maybe describe god (if he isn't about being nice, love, or anything positive) and then I may get some understanding?

There are good reasons for disease. That is why it exists. It has purpose.

It's chaos. Cancer doesn't have a schedule to appear. Seizures, by their very definition, are disruptions of the nerve activity in the brain.

Whether it has a purpose depends on the person. To me, our purpose is to be born, live, age, and pass away. Our spirit/energy lives through the lives of people who know us, places we've been, and objects we own.

There is no need for chaos to have order. It simply does when one fully understands what exactly is going on. When one sees it clearly, there is order.

We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion. Chaos doesn't have order and when one fully understand that, all they understand is, chaos doesn't have order. When one realizes they are ignorant, they don't become smart. They are still ignorant. They just have the guts to admit it and move on.

 

[godnotgod]

We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion. Chaos doesn't have order and when one fully understand that, all they understand is, chaos doesn't have order. When one realizes they are ignorant, they don't become smart. They are still ignorant. They just have the guts to admit it and move on.

This is surprising coming from someone who talks about Buddhism from time to time. Most people do think this, and that there is nothing else. They think everything is a distorted, personal view, and that is the case for most of mankind. And so they sometimes end their discussion by saying: "You have your view, and I have mine." But apparently you have not gone past this obstacle. The Buddhist view is not Buddhist. It is transcendent of all personal views. This view is understood as Nirvana. Buddha said:

"There is that, which is unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned and unconstructed!
If, Bhikkhus, there was not this unborn, uncreated, unformed and unconstructed, no escape from what is born, created, formed and constructed could ever be realized...
But since there indeed exists that, which is utterly unborn, uncreated, unformed and unconstructed, the escape from this born, created, formed and constructed state can therefore indeed be realized, explained and made known as right here and now!"

Drop of Dhamma Delight!

In Zen terms, it is to simply 'see things as they are', the experience of Enlightenment.

Buddhism sees ignorance as the obstacle to Enlightenment, and Enlightenment as its cure. Ignorance is to see things in terms of perceptual reality, ie; via the five senses and their extensions. Enlightenment is to see things via Ultimate Reality.

But the Buddha said that Enlightened Mind is the same as Ordinary Mind. IOW, the consciousness by which one is deluded is the same consciousness by which one is enlightened. And so, Zen tells its students to begin their practice right in the very center of their delusion.

Did you hear what the Buddha said? He said that Realization is "right here and now", and not in some future la la land 'out there'. But we persist in seeing things via the mind and its constructs, rather than via pure consciousness, which has no such constructs, which is not in Time or Space, and therefore does not come and go.

 

[shawn001]

↑


Answer the question: Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull? A simple question you continue to skirt around.

Monism

What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

 

[godnotgod]

↑


Answer the question: Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull? A simple question you continue to skirt around.

Monism

What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

Your comments have zilch to do with answering the question, which you refuse to answer, and continue to beat around the bush. Now you're just playing games.

 

[shawn001]

Your comments have zilch to do with answering the question, which you refuse to answer, and continue to beat around the bush. Now you're just playing games.

I answered the question numerous times, even though you kept rephrasing it. It was the same reply on it.

But you're not answering my questions at all.

Let's make it simple for you.

"In simple terms, Monism is the belief that ultimately the mind and the brain are the same things, whereas dualists believe that the mind and
the brain are separate."

Kindly answer these questions, in regards to your question"Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull?


What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

 

[godnotgod]

I answered the question numerous times, even though you kept rephrasing it. It was the same reply on it.

But you're not answering my questions at all.

Let's make it simple for you.

"In simple terms, Monism is the belief that ultimately the mind and the brain are the same things, whereas dualists believe that the mind and
the brain are separate."

Kindly answer these questions, in regards to your question"Does your consciousness extends beyond your skull?


What roles do your senses apply to your above question?

If you had all the neurotransmitters removed from your body and brain would your meditation still work?

My question came first. You have not told us where your consciousness ends and the outside world begins. Provide a straight answer, and I will be glad to answer your questions. Otherwise, s**t or get off the pot!

edit: however, to answer to your comments in part: since the mind is a self-created principle, there is no such mind to be defined by either monism or dualism. You are deluded.

 

[shawn001]

How are we special?

Compared to the vastness of the universe, we're, well, nothing.



I honestly feel that's an illusion to feel solace so one wouldn't die.

Until we are comfortable with physical and thereby spiritual death, we'd always be yearning but never get anywhere. It's a waste of energy.



If god isn't about nice (and not nice) then there'd be no sin.

As for intelligence, I do not understand what that means when applied to god. Maybe describe god (if he isn't about being nice, love, or anything positive) and then I may get some understanding?



It's chaos. Cancer doesn't have a schedule to appear. Seizures, by their very definition, are disruptions of the nerve activity in the brain.

Whether it has a purpose depends on the person. To me, our purpose is to be born, live, age, and pass away. Our spirit/energy lives through the lives of people who know us, places we've been, and objects we own.



We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion. Chaos doesn't have order and when one fully understand that, all they understand is, chaos doesn't have order. When one realizes they are ignorant, they don't become smart. They are still ignorant. They just have the guts to admit it and move on.

Just FYI

The Nature of Reality: A Dialogue Between a Buddhist Scholar and a Theoretical Physicist

"We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion"

Maybe yes, maybe no, a unified theory that combines Relativity with Quantum mechanics could go a long way to understanding everything.

 

[Bird123]

Oh? Then it is .....'something'?

I think that by saying 'it all comes down to math', you meant that everything can be explained in terms of math. I disagree. Math does not tell us what the nature of Reality actually is.

But the nature of reality can be described in mathematical terms given enough intelligence.

 

[Bird123]

Again, the universe over time is going from more orderly to less orderly and we were created in that disorder.

"It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics."

Life in the Universe

"There are good reasons for disease. That is why it exists. It has purpose."

Population control?

Is it really common experience that things are getting more disordered and chaotic with time? I find the opposite is happening. Sure things are unfolding from a single point, however can not the result be just as orderly or more just in a different form?

A building can be full of people. That can be orderly. People can orderly walk out of the building and reassemble on the front lawn. Is the movement or action disorderly or chaotic? Perhaps only from the view of one who does not understand what is really going on. Movement or change does not define as disorder or chaotic.

 

[gnostic]

I (and I'm sure most other people here) are rather sick and tired of having to correct your straw-man fallacies. Mutation supplies the raw materials and natural section provides the "guidance" why is it so hard for you to remember that?

Stubborn ignorance and lack of honesty are common traits among creationists. You can't teach old dogs new tricks.

No matter how many times people have tried to correct his mistakes and debunk his straw man, Guy cannot learn from his mistakes.

 

[Bird123]

How are we special?

Compared to the vastness of the universe, we're, well, nothing.



I honestly feel that's an illusion to feel solace so one wouldn't die.

Until we are comfortable with physical and thereby spiritual death, we'd always be yearning but never get anywhere. It's a waste of energy.



If god isn't about nice (and not nice) then there'd be no sin.

As for intelligence, I do not understand what that means when applied to god. Maybe describe god (if he isn't about being nice, love, or anything positive) and then I may get some understanding?



It's chaos. Cancer doesn't have a schedule to appear. Seizures, by their very definition, are disruptions of the nerve activity in the brain.

Whether it has a purpose depends on the person. To me, our purpose is to be born, live, age, and pass away. Our spirit/energy lives through the lives of people who know us, places we've been, and objects we own.



We will never see things clearly. That is an illusion. Chaos doesn't have order and when one fully understand that, all they understand is, chaos doesn't have order. When one realizes they are ignorant, they don't become smart. They are still ignorant. They just have the guts to admit it and move on.

Does vastness determine Special? I think not. One might experience awe at the surroundings, however aren't the action players really the ones who make the story?

There is a very good reason space has great distances. It limits interaction of some until a certain level of knowledge is acquired. It simply prevents a mess.

OK, I want you to do something for me. I want you to go to a comfortable dark room with no distractions. Relax, close your eyes and focus inward. When you get really focused, I want you to say to yourself. It's Me.

It's important you discover who you really are. It's Me. Are you really part of this physical world? There is so much sensory input from this physical world, it's easy to assume the physical is all there is. Discover who you really are.

You have allowed religion to corrupt your thinking. Does sin really exist? Of course not. There are only choices.

I once told you that God was knowledge and intelligence and that God's choices were intelligent. Ask yourself. Is the final judgment day that religion describes really an intelligent way? It's a mess. It also values petty things like hate, revenge, judging, condemning and hurting, threatening in order to attempt to control the actions of others. Does that really sound smart? Of course not.

AS I see it God is at a Higher Level. The only thing that matters will be the results. Don't hate one for their choices; teach them what their choices really mean. When one acquires enough knowledge and wisdom, one will make the best choices. If the end result creates one who makes the best choices, there is no need for all those petty and really not intelligence choices religion wants to exist.

As I see it, God is Unconditional Love. Why? Think about it. It is the most intelligent way to be. Unconditional Love does what is best for the other. Is frying your kids without the possibility of redemption really best for them? Of course not!

Adversity breeds invention. If there were no problems, we would all just sit back and enjoy the ride. Look how much knowledge mankind has acquired through the existence of disease. When cancer is cured, a new disease will pop up to take it's place. Mankind will be set up for the next lesson to learn.

It's all about knowledge and intelligence. The struggle to attain knowledge does bring rewards. For now, you might be lost in chaos, however effort to discover does bring rewards regardless of how impossible it seems. Example: Mankind's only medicine at one time were leeches. Mankind was lost in so many ways. The effort to discover leads us all forward. The rewards of knowledge are within everyone's grasp in some form. I have to believe that with a system so based in knowledge.

What is the first thing a wise man realizes once he truly becomes wise? The first thing a wise man realizes once he truly becomes wise is that there is so much more to learn. I cry that. Admitting once ignorance does not count. what counts is working to do something about it.

AS I see it, we all know God. We have all experienced God's Unconditional Love that heals all hurt. As I see it, this has spoiled us to the extent that we all want to have it made. AS I see it, the reality and purpose of this world is not to have it made. The purpose is for our education through our free choices. We learn through the parameters of our lives, our choices and interactions. The dynamics are amazing. The intelligence needed for the system is through the roof. It is a Masterpiece!!!

Worry not. For no matter what happens, as I see it God has fixed it all ahead of time. It will be just a short time we will all be spoiled back into God's arms. As I see it, it is a Love we would do anything for.

Children do have growing pains at times but that won't prevent them from finally growing up. One should never give up easily for we are all much more capable than we realize.

 

[shawn001]

My question came first. You have not told us where your consciousness ends and the outside world begins. Provide a straight answer, and I will be glad to answer your questions. Otherwise, s**t or get off the pot!

edit: however, to answer to your comments in part: since the mind is a self-created principle, there is no such mind to be defined by either monism or dualism. You are deluded.

"You have not told us where your consciousness ends and the outside world begins."

I have many times now, they are both inside and outside my brain. The outside world serves as its own, external, representation.

Your conscious when you observe the outside world through your senses which are then processed and stored in the brain. Of course, that is a really simple explanation of the complexities. The brain has about 9 billion neurons and so many synapses firing that if you counted one every second it would take you three million years to count them all.

If I didn't have a nervous system and brain I would not know about the outside world nor would I be alive. The brain generates awareness of the outside world. This "consciousness ends and the outside world begins." is misleading from the start and just plain wrong. Consciousness is needed to experience the outside world.