Supreme Court rules in case of Colorado bakery

[Revoltingest]

Would you prefer a world where atheists had to wear armbands with 666 on them so that Christian bakers could easily identify them and refuse them service?

Of course, my preference is for a world with minimal coercions.
Forced wearing of armbands (or veils, or suits, etc) wouldn't fit well.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My objection there is there's a third category not being taken into account. It's not about the person, and it's not even specifically about the design. It's about the event.

If an antisemetic cake maker refused to sell even a generic birthday cake for a Bar Mitzvah, I would rather find another cake maker than force that individual to make something he finds detestable, even if it makes him a terrible person. I don't need a terrible person making my cake just to prove a point that I can get the government to force him to do it.

The problem is this can easily lead to whole cities or whole counties excluding something, or more specifically someone they find detestable, and you would have to travel for hours, even across state lines, to receive service. If you even have the ability to do that. This is happening in the south with pushing out abortion services, and it did happen in Germany where a collective group of discriminating businesses essentially cut off Jewish people in their community under the guise of 'business choice.'

 

[Jainarayan]

You're the one who doesn't get it. Probably because you haven't ever hired anyone. It's not about positive recommendation or silence.

It's about Yes he worked here from date to date; No he never worked here.

Nothing positive, nothing negative. Period.

It's not about laws, it's about lawsuits.

Thank you.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Try harder. All you have done is state your unwarranted opinions.

I've been pretty clear that I've been stating my opinion. No need for you to be hostile about it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Not too long ago a civil servant refused to grant marriage licenses to a gay couple. She was hailed a hero by many people.

And she was wrong, and those who called her a hero were wrong. She was not in any position to refuse to do her job.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The problem is this can easily lead to whole cities or whole counties excluding something, or more specifically someone they find detestable, and you would have to travel for hours, even across state lines, to receive service. If you even have the ability to do that. This is happening in the south with pushing out abortion services, and it did happen in Germany where a collective group of discriminating businesses essentially cut off Jewish people in their community under the guise of 'business choice.'

The Holocaust wasn't the result of German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews. I believe the Public Accommodation laws as set forth in Federal Law are sufficient to prevent the sort of catastrophic discrimination you're envisioning.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The Holocaust wasn't the result of German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews. I believe the Public Accommodation laws as set forth in Federal Law are sufficient to prevent the sort of catastrophic discrimination you're envisioning.

I didn't mean to invoke the Holocaust, or a slippery slope to it, but the years of business discrimination itself before it. And how 'just go to another business' type solutions aren't for some people in heavily same-thought areas

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Help me out here. What's the substantive difference between:

• a restaurant refuses to serve an mixed-race couple,
• a baker refuses to help celebrate a same-sex marriage, and
• a Jewish printer refuses to produce posters for the Klan ...

History and intent.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I didn't mean to invoke the Holocaust, or a slippery slope to it, but the years of business discrimination itself before it. And how 'just go to another business' type solutions aren't for some people in heavily same-thought areas

Are you of the belief that all bakeries are run by Christians who don't support same sex marriage, and that the wrong decision from the Supreme Court may doom American gay weddings to be cakeless forever?

We have a very diverse population. Some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be less tolerant than others. The upside to that is, some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be more tolerant than others.

Find out who the more tolerant ones are and reward them by giving them your businesses. Stop sending the government after people whose views you disagree with.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Are you of the belief that all bakeries are run by Christians who don't support same sex marriage, and that the wrong decision from the Supreme Court may doom American gay weddings to be cakeless forever?

We have a very diverse population. Some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be less tolerant than others. The upside to that is, some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be more tolerant than others.

Find out who the more tolerant ones are and reward them by giving them your businesses. Stop sending the government after people whose views you disagree with.

No, I think this court case had to do with the CCC's mishandling reslting in a narrow ruling that didn't actually set a precedent.

But I also think it's real easy to say we are a diverse population with tolerant options in one of the most liberal areas of the United States with big booming left leaning populations. Less so for much of the rural conservative areas and especially deep South and bible belt.

 

[ecco]

The Holocaust wasn't the result of German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews.

German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews was an early indication of what was to come.

I believe the Public Accommodation laws as set forth in Federal Law are sufficient to prevent the sort of catastrophic discrimination you're envisioning.

Most Germans in 1925 could not foresee the sort of catastrophic discrimination that later occurred.

 

[Woberts]

The first one would run smack dab into the 1866 Civil Rights Act.
As for the 2nd, it might depend upon the message they wanted added to the cake.
For example, I'd never bake a cake which said....
"Jesus wants abortionists to cook in the lake of fire".

Medium rare, please.

 

[Thief]

You're the one who doesn't get it. Probably because you haven't ever hired anyone. It's not about positive recommendation or silence.

It's about Yes he worked here from date to date; No he never worked here.

Nothing positive, nothing negative. Period.

It's not about laws, it's about lawsuits.

so much for recommendations

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The client should take their business elsewhere. Maybe write a bad yelp review. But the owner should NOT be forced to create something he or she refuses to create, and the owner should NOT be sued for discrimination.

If they’re in business voluntarily, then putting conditions on how business should be done can’t ever be “forcing” the owner to do anything.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you of the belief that all bakeries are run by Christians who don't support same sex marriage, and that the wrong decision from the Supreme Court may doom American gay weddings to be cakeless forever?

We have a very diverse population. Some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be less tolerant than others. The upside to that is, some people who are in the business of creating custom goods may be more tolerant than others.

Find out who the more tolerant ones are and reward them by giving them your businesses. Stop sending the government after people whose views you disagree with.

I live in a rural area. There are maybe 3 places who do wedding cakes within a 30 minute drive. It’s not unusual for all but one (or all of them) to be fully booked on any given weekend in the summer. It’s often the case that a person’s choice is to go with one particular business or do without.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I live in a rural area. There are maybe 3 places who do wedding cakes within a 30 minute drive. It’s not unusual for all but one (or all of them) to be fully booked on any given weekend in the summer. It’s often the case that a person’s choice is to go with one particular business or do without.

The couple in this case were married in Massachusetts and went to Colorado to celebrate with family and friends. They were obviously not limited to cake shops located within a half-hour drive.

This is the 21st century. You can go online and find wedding cake shops the next state over that may be able to deliver a wedding cake to your location.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If they’re in business voluntarily, then putting conditions on how business should be done can’t ever be “forcing” the owner to do anything.

So a muslim tattoo artist who owns and operates his own tattoo parlor could never refuse to ink the image of Muhammad wearing a bomb in his turban from the Danish cartoon unless he gives up his business entirely?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So a muslim tattoo artist who owns and operates his own tattoo parlor could never refuse to ink the image of Muhammad wearing a bomb in his turban from the Danish cartoon unless he gives up his business entirely?

This, like the kosher deli, isn't a relevant example. Because not providing a service or product to anyone is not the same as not providing equal service or product to some. A more relevant example is you will tattoo 'peace' onto a Christian but not a Muslim.

 

[Poisonshady313]

German bakers refusing to bake cakes for Jews was an early indication of what was to come.
Most Germans in 1925 could not foresee the sort of catastrophic discrimination that later occurred.

What I see happening here is you're taking something you categorize as "I don't like that this happened" and are mixing it up with "this is the worst thing in the world" and are lumping it into the same category as the Nuremburg laws... it's an extreme stretch. Nobody is banning homosexuals from owning businesses or stripping them of their citizenship. A baker refused to design a cake for a homosexual couple. If you find this to be the first step towards rounding up homosexuals into ghettos, then I would say you're severely overstating the severity of this situation.

 

[Poisonshady313]

This, like the kosher deli, isn't a relevant example. Because not providing a service or product to anyone is not the same as not providing equal service or product to some. A more relevant example is you will tattoo 'peace' onto a Christian but not a Muslim.

I disagree. This baker wasn't simply mass producing cakes and refusing a particular customer. He designs them each to be unique for the occasion. The reasons a Muslim tattoo artist wouldn't want to tattoo Muhammad with a bomb in his turban are entirely religious. But his business is tattooing people, especially people who approach him with their own designs in mind. And if someone, in the name of free speech and in solidarity with the danish cartoonists, wanted such a tattoo, how could a person who provides tattoos for a living say no?