Why do humans allow suffering?

[blü 2]

God is in full control of everything in the universe, every atom is in His full control and nothing happens unless He allows it.

So, you say, he's omnipotent and NOT benevolent?

I agree that would fit the data.

Fallen man doesn't understand god because his mind is corrupt and very limited, he's trying to understand a unlimited almighty God with a very narrow limited mind and it just doesn't work.

Fallen or not, corrupt of mind or not, a good man, a good being, does not see a child threatened with rape and do nothing. Does not send rains that drop mudslides on sleeping villages. Does not let criminals prey on the innocent.

But your god does all those things all day every day.

As a believer I love everything God does, because I know He's perfect and everything he does is perfect.

You think inflicting rape, ruin, death, disease, insanity, are the acts of a perfect and benevolent being? With all due respect, that conclusion is absurd, untenable, repulsive, morally blind.

 

[Danny1988]

So, you say, he's omnipotent and NOT benevolent?

I agree that would fit the data.
Fallen or not, corrupt of mind or not, a good man, a good being, does not see a child threatened with rape and do nothing. Does not send rains that drop mudslides on sleeping villages. Does not let criminals prey on the innocent.

But your god does all those things all day every day.
You think inflicting rape, ruin, death, disease, insanity, are the acts of a perfect and benevolent being? With all due respect, that conclusion is absurd, untenable, repulsive, morally blind.

You forgot to look at the elephant in the room, the only reason the world has so many bad things happening is because man sinned against God and cut himself off from His blessings.

The Bible says that the whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the Lord to return and destroy the works of the wicked.

Everything will be perfect soon, God will destroy this world and everything in it and create a brand new world where everything will be absolutely perfect in every way.

So we can thank sin for bringing so much suffering into the world.

 

[Koldo]

You forgot to look at the elephant in the room, the only reason the world has so many bad things happening is because man sinned against God and cut himself off from His blessings.

The Bible says that the whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the Lord to return and destroy the works of the wicked.

Everything will be perfect soon, God will destroy this world and everything in it and create a brand new world where everything will be absolutely perfect in every way.

So we can thank sin for bringing so much suffering into the world.

Sin is stronger than God.
Got it.

 

[Danny1988]

Sin is stronger than God.
Got it.

God keeps to His standard, so sin must be punished. We are all suffering the effects of our collective sins, God doesn't wink at sin He punishes sinners. Far worse punishment awaits the unrepentant, they will suffer eternal torment in the fires of hell

 

[Koldo]

God keeps to His standard, so sin must be punished. We are all suffering the effects of our collective sins, God doesn't wink at sin He punishes sinners. Far worse punishment awaits the unrepentant, they will suffer eternal torment in the fires of hell

Inflicting punishment is more important to God than getting rid of suffering. Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.
Got it.

 

[blü 2]

You forgot to look at the elephant in the room, the only reason the world has so many bad things happening is because man sinned against God and cut himself off from His blessings.

Where does the bible say that? Please quote me the precise words.

The Bible says that the whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the Lord to return and destroy the works of the wicked.

No, the rapes, murders, diseases, destructions, insanities are happening now. NOW is when a benevolent god would act. Later is too late, later is meaningless.

Everything will be perfect soon, God will destroy this world and everything in it and create a brand new world where everything will be absolutely perfect in every way.

But Jesus said he'd return within the lifetime of some his audience ─

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”​

and that simply didn't happen. Nothing has happened in the 2000 years following. What makes you think anything will happen in the next 2000 years? The next 200,000 years?

 

[nPeace]

Yes, humans make mistakes.

I know humans make mistakes because I am human and make mistakes and have observed others make mistakes.
Imperfection is a flaw in design, or function

A mistake is an action that does not produce the intended outcome. It can also be an errorin thinking, such as adding up numbers and coming up with an incorrect abswer. These examples or neither exclusive nor all-inclusive. Just givibg some simple one since you seem to not know how to recocnize mistakes. Some mistakes can end up having positive results. But they were still mistakes.

Can you get off the pedantic crap and move on, now?

Thanks for answering.

So that I clearly understand you...
I

mperfection is a flaw in design, or function

Since you argue against design, I am not going to assume what you mean by design, so please can you explain?
What do you mean exactly by flaw in design, or function, and how is it a flaw in design and function, if this is how nature works?
Are you saying that nature is supposed to work another way - perhaps flawlessly?

It can also be an errorin thinking,

If this is how natural things work, how can you determine it as a mistake?

Some mistakes can end up having positive results. But they were still mistakes.

So, this prompts a similar question as above. Why do you determine it is a mistake? What measurement allows you to determine that?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Many people tell me they don’t believe in God because if he existed he wouldn’t allow suffering. Since there is plenty of suffering in the world, that must mean that God doesn’t exist. I tell them the account in the Bible: God’s authority was challenged and instead of imposing his authority he decided to give humans a chance to prove their point for a certain period of time. He gave us the right to rule ourselves without his intervention.
At the moment, governments are formed by people who have in their hands the power to do plenty of things. These governments rule over people who individually might not feel very powerful, but collectively, as a society, can get many things done, things that could ultimately completely change the tragic course we’ve trapped ourselves in, but yet, what I see is indifference, numbness, lack of empathy, lack of kindness and generosity, etc. I don't see many people committed to end suffering.
With all our freedom, technology, enlightenment, whatever else, shouldn't we have been able to do something about that already? If God is out of the picture and humans are in charge, why do humans allow suffering then?

What is your hidden agenda with this post?

You belong to an organization that teaches and believes that they are supposed to just sit back and let the world do whatever it does. No one in your organization is in a position to be of any help to the world. No one in your organization can enter politics, so none of you can be in a position of authority to make any changes right? So are you depending on Babylon to make changes for the good of the people while you sit back and watch?

Please explain to me how the governments rule over the people when the gentile times ended in 1914!

 

[Milton Platt]

Thanks for answering.

So that I clearly understand you...
I
Since you argue against design, I am not going to assume what you mean by design, so please can you explain?
What do you mean exactly by flaw in design, or function, and how is it a flaw in design and function, if this is how nature works?
Are you saying that nature is supposed to work another way - perhaps flawlessly?


If this is how natural things work, how can you determine it as a mistake?


So, this prompts a similar question as above. Why do you determine it is a mistake? What measurement allows you to determine that?

I do not argue specifically against design. I argue against intelligent design in the case of naturally occurring things.

We were talking specifically about whether HUMANS make mistakes and how that human or other humans recognize them as mistakes.

Do you wish to abandon that discussion? You cannot change the topic to "natural things" to include all processes and things that exist.

I already answered you as to how one may determine if something is a mistake. And again, this refers specifically to our discussion of how a human knows they themselves made a mistake or that another human made a mistake. Stick to the parameters of the discussion. It appears you are wanting to extrapolate my explanations to cover topics that are not under discussion and to imply that the examples I gave are the only ways to determine mistakes.

If you want to discuss whether natural processes devoid of intelligent decision making can make mistakes, then we can look at that. But that is not the question you posed to me.

Do you think that mistakes can be made? Yes or no. If so, how do you define a mistake? If not, why not? You need to have some skin in the game. You don't get to just ask an endless string of questions and have nothing to answer for. We will continue when you answer my questions.

 

[nPeace]

I do not argue specifically against design. I argue against intelligent design in the case of naturally occurring things.

We were talking specifically about whether HUMANS make mistakes and how that human or other humans recognize them as mistakes.

Do you wish to abandon that discussion? You cannot change the topic to "natural things" to include all processes and things that exist.

I already answered you as to how one may determine if something is a mistake. And again, this refers specifically to our discussion of how a human knows they themselves made a mistake or that another human made a mistake. Stick to the parameters of the discussion. It appears you are wanting to extrapolate my explanations to cover topics that are not under discussion and to imply that the examples I gave are the only ways to determine mistakes.

If you want to discuss whether natural processes devoid of intelligent decision making can make mistakes, then we can look at that. But that is not the question you posed to me.

Do you think that mistakes can be made? Yes or no. If so, how do you define a mistake? If not, why not? You need to have some skin in the game. You don't get to just ask an endless string of questions and have nothing to answer for. We will continue when you answer my questions.

Didn't you say to Vee

Because humans are imperfect and make mistakes. Surly you know that?

Don't count me out of that. Our holy book says it.
If you want me to go into detail on what it says, just say the word... and I'll continue.

From your point of view though, I placed humans in the category of natural. Do you say differently. So I was not aware that you separated them.

 

[Vee]

Would you think it is helpful if all of them sent $100 to each of those 3.6 billion folks? Would it help if these titans were brought as low as the lowest?

100$ each could be helpful for a few days but if wouldn't fix the root problem of inequality. What would help is for those people to have a chance to make a decent living, to be paid correctly for their work instead of being exploited and stripped off the resources of the lands where they live so that the big corporations of this world can pay a few more billions to the CEOs.

 

[YmirGF]

100$ each could be helpful for a few days but if wouldn't fix the root problem of inequality. What would help is for those people to have a chance to make a decent living, to be paid correctly for their work instead of being exploited and stripped off the resources of the lands where they live so that the big corporations of this world can pay a few more billions to the CEOs.

But, here's the thing, in order to effect you esteemed sense of equality, it would be to give an advantage to the poor/marginalized and penalize anyone who has dared to be successful beyond their wildest dreams. In effect, you would throw a major wrench into the works of "getting ahead", as there would have to be some kind of cut off, beyond which, one would be taxed into oblivion for being too successful. This would hamstring growth and wreck the very economies who were foolish enough to try this type of thing. So, do you believe in maximum income caps? How about a "living wage"? Where would you draw the line?

 

[Jumi]

why do humans allow suffering then?

Humans aren't all powerful. There are good people working against suffering, working against racism, against various discriminatory practices and in medical practice, sociology... there are also lots of people who don't care because of their beliefs, selfishness or ignorance. Or that still haven't reached a standard of living where they are able to prevent it.

 

[Vee]

But, here's the thing, in order to effect you esteemed sense of equality, it would be to give an advantage to the poor/marginalized and penalize anyone who has dared to be successful beyond their wildest dreams.

Does being successful beyond one's wildest dreams equal making tones of money? How many mansions, sports cars, yachts and trophy wives does someone "need" to be considered successful?
Everyone should have the opportunity to have an education, learn a trade and be paid fairly for their work. The minimum salary should always be enough for people to at least pay all their basic bills: rent, food, utilities and health care. The exact amount depends on the region where people live.
I believe in maximum income caps. Nothing justifies that a CEO, no matter how good he is, should earn 300 times more than the employees of his company. I find it unacceptable that Bezos has a net worth of 150 billion dollars but the people that work in the Amazon warehouses pee in bottles because they don't have enough time to go to the bathroom and even though they are treated like slaves, they are getting paid peanuts.

 

[rrobs]

Many people tell me they don’t believe in God because if he existed he wouldn’t allow suffering. Since there is plenty of suffering in the world, that must mean that God doesn’t exist. I tell them the account in the Bible: God’s authority was challenged and instead of imposing his authority he decided to give humans a chance to prove their point for a certain period of time. He gave us the right to rule ourselves without his intervention.
At the moment, governments are formed by people who have in their hands the power to do plenty of things. These governments rule over people who individually might not feel very powerful, but collectively, as a society, can get many things done, things that could ultimately completely change the tragic course we’ve trapped ourselves in, but yet, what I see is indifference, numbness, lack of empathy, lack of kindness and generosity, etc. I don't see many people committed to end suffering.
With all our freedom, technology, enlightenment, whatever else, shouldn't we have been able to do something about that already? If God is out of the picture and humans are in charge, why do humans allow suffering then?

First of all, I wonder what people who think God causes suffering imagine the devil to be doing all day long. Is he just sitting around and laughing and gloating at all the problems God allegedly causes his children? Tradition may teach God causes pain and suffering, but the scriptures paint a different God altogether. The devil is always voting against us, and God is always voting for us. Each individual breaks the tie by their vote. People either believe the lies of the world or the truth of God's word. One thing's for sure; we get what we believe (Mark 11:23).

We have the first Adam to thank for the tragic course of society.

Gen 3:17-19,

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
​

Thankfully we have a hope in the second Adam, Jesus Christ.

1Cor 15:45,

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
​

Even a casual reading of the rest of 1 Corinthians 15 shows that all the problems caused by the first Adam was solved by Jesus Christ. Right now, we are still waiting for his appearance as King of Kings and Lord of Lords when he will establish a new heaven and new earth that will be quite a bit different (to say the least) of this one. Just like he creates a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) in each born again believer rather than simply "improve" the old flesh nature, so will God create a new earth rather than "improve" the current one. In both cases the saying rings true, "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

Rev 21:1,

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
​

Until Christ's second appearance it is up to individual believers to keep the devil and his evil works at bay. Born again believers are the light of this world. Nonetheless, the world itself is still held in bondage (Rom 8:2) and therefore not up to God's idea of where He wants us to ultimately live forever. Believers do indeed introduce light to ease the suffering, but it will not be totally eliminated until the establishment of the new heavens and new earth.

2 Thesselonians chapter 2 is worth a read.

 

[Pudding]

Many people tell me they don’t believe in God because if he existed he wouldn’t allow suffering. Since there is plenty of suffering in the world, that must mean that God doesn’t exist. I tell them the account in the Bible: God’s authority was challenged and instead of imposing his authority he decided to give humans a chance to prove their point for a certain period of time. He gave us the right to rule ourselves without his intervention.

Without intervention?
Writing a story and threatening all humanity with hell fire is not an intervention?
Millions of self appointed god's messengers, a lot of them engage in preaching and harming people because they believe their god told them so, that indirect intervention is not an intervention?

Writing a story in a manner so vaguely ends up thousands of religion sects which a lot of them claim that only one/some of their sect is the true religion, a lot of time results in fighting between themselves or with non-believers, making people suffer. Do you believe your god is not responsible for those suffering?

Moreover, non-believers don't believe in Bible, just like they don't believe in other non-christianity religions' holy books. Your statements that "God’s authority was challenged and instead of imposing his authority he decided to give humans a chance to prove their point for a certain period of time. He gave us the right to rule ourselves without his intervention" will not convince anyone without provide evidence backing it.

At the moment, governments are formed by people who have in their hands the power to do plenty of things. These governments rule over people who individually might not feel very powerful, but collectively, as a society, can get many things done, things that could ultimately completely change the tragic course we’ve trapped ourselves in, but yet, what I see is indifference, numbness, lack of empathy, lack of kindness and generosity, etc. I don't see many people committed to end suffering.

Yes, those ugly governments, they provide laws to keep us safe at least to some extent, how bad they are. They should have provide perfect solution to solve every tragic we've ever seen because they obviously have the power to do so! It's so easy, even @Vee can come up with such a perfect solution to solve every tragic if she ever have the power to do so, but too bad her religion forbid her to elect herself to involve in government power. Now all she can do is complaint, complaint and complaint, her perfect solution will be remain unseen forever, such a waste.

Slavery have generally end, gender equality been promote, racism is generally illegal, there're medicine to cure many tragic disease, but what you see is indifference, numbness, lack of empathy, lack of kindness and generosity. Maybe all the governments should disband themselves and we should go back to dark ages and wait for any gods to save us instead!

With all our freedom, technology, enlightenment, whatever else, shouldn't we have been able to do something about that already? If God is out of the picture and humans are in charge, why do humans allow suffering then?

Yes, with all our freedom, technology, enlightenment, whatever else, why does @Vee still haven't do something about that already?
If humans are in charge, why do @Vee still allow suffering then?
It is so easy and should be inevitable for @Vee to do so, why does it still not done yet?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Many people tell me they don’t believe in God because if he existed he wouldn’t allow suffering. Since there is plenty of suffering in the world, that must mean that God doesn’t exist. I tell them the account in the Bible: God’s authority was challenged and instead of imposing his authority he decided to give humans a chance to prove their point for a certain period of time. He gave us the right to rule ourselves without his intervention.
At the moment, governments are formed by people who have in their hands the power to do plenty of things. These governments rule over people who individually might not feel very powerful, but collectively, as a society, can get many things done, things that could ultimately completely change the tragic course we’ve trapped ourselves in, but yet, what I see is indifference, numbness, lack of empathy, lack of kindness and generosity, etc. I don't see many people committed to end suffering.
With all our freedom, technology, enlightenment, whatever else, shouldn't we have been able to do something about that already? If God is out of the picture and humans are in charge, why do humans allow suffering then?

It's because we're animals no different than any other animal on the planet.

Personally I think it's a natural Fail-Safe in the genome paving way for survival of the fittest. I don't see how suffering cant happen with that kind of competition going on.

It's instinctive so I don't think suffering can be stopped. I see suffering as a force of nature by which we do as best we can to minimize the effects.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I don't see all suffering as bad. I see the suffering of innocent children, or animals as always bad. But, if for example, I make poor choices and I suffer because of those choices, I need to learn from the pain of those bad choices. But, some people never learn, no matter how much suffering they go through.

I remember reading in Buddhism, there is a philosophy about suffering, that it's optional. Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. Something like that.

Yes. In fact foremost among the noble truths, life is pain.

It's the attachment to the effects that are of a concern. It can be an option as to whether you want to dwell in it or let It go.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You forgot to look at the elephant in the room, the only reason the world has so many bad things happening is because man sinned against God and cut himself off from His blessings.

The Bible says that the whole of creation groans in agony waiting for the Lord to return and destroy the works of the wicked.

Everything will be perfect soon, God will destroy this world and everything in it and create a brand new world where everything will be absolutely perfect in every way.

So we can thank sin for bringing so much suffering into the world.

This is exactly why I am not Christian because of this theological bulls****. So if a little girl cries out for help it’s because of her sin the girl is raped and therefore deserves no help?

 

[Danny1988]

Inflicting punishment is more important to God than getting rid of suffering. Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.
Got it.

Suffering is a direct result of sinful behavior, it always has been and it always will be.

God must inflict punishment on sinners, because He can't be a just God and allow sin to go unpunished. It's like asking a judge to forgive murder, it actually a ridiculous thing to say.