Two Things That Confuse Me About Christianity

[SeekingAllTruth]

There are probably other things to consider. God promised exile for the Jews if they were not faithful to the Covenant and during exile there could be no King in Israel or Judah. So prophecies about the Messiah needed to fit with that promise also.
Maybe the best way to understand it is that there would always be someone from the line of David who could become King and that all the Kings of Judah would be from that line.

That's a logical premise. The debate can never be settled anyway so this is one suitable solution to trying to make sense of the issue. Thank you, Brian.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Baha’i Faith is not “another Gospel.” Only Jesus has a Gospel. The Baha’i Faith is a new Revelation from God, separate from the Bible, albeit connected, since there is only one religion of God that is revealed in various chapters throughout the ages.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

Christianity fulfilled its purpose a long time ago and that is why God sent a new Messenger with a new Revelation to renew religion.

You are changing the gospel.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

The Bible says:
Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

But then the New Testament was an addition to the Old Testament, wasn't it?
So Jesus came with a new Revelation from God and added to what Moses revealed.

That is no different from Baha'u'llah coming with a new Revelation from God and adding to what Moses and Jesus had revealed.

In the old testament God said that there was going to be another covenant or testament. But he said it would be an everlasting covenant. You are saying it is not and has been replaced.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are changing the gospel.

I cannot change the gospel, I can only interpret it.
If I interpret it differently than you do, how is that changing it? What do you think I am changing?

 

[Trailblazer]

In the old testament God said that there was going to be another covenant or testament. But he said it would be an everlasting covenant. You are saying it is not and has been replaced.

Baha’is believe that there is an everlasting covenant which remains in force today. It will never be replaced.

The overall covenant God made with His followers in Judaism, known to Jews as the Mosaic Covenant, and to Christians as the Old Covenant, put forth the stipulation of the oneness of God – “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2) – as the primary law of the Ten Commandments. In exchange for following those principles, God promised that he would never leave His followers without guidance:

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid … for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. – Deuteronomy 31:6.

This eternal covenant between God and humanity, the Baha’i teachings say, remains in force today. The Creator has bestowed bounties on us all, and in return asks us to recognize His prophets and messengers and abide by their laws and spiritual principles. The Baha’i teachings joyously celebrate that covenant:

How to Understand the Baha’i Covenant

The everlasting covenant is like the umbrella which covers all religions. It began with Moses and it will last forever.

In addition to that covenant, the Messengers of God make a Covenant with their followers. This is called the Greater Covenant.
Jesus made a Covenant with His followers, which applies only to Christians.
Baha'u'llah also made a Covenant with His followers, which applies only to Baha'is.

Greater covenant

The greater covenant refers to the covenant made between each messenger from God, which the literature of the Baháʼí Faith name Manifestations of God, and his followers regarding the coming of the next Manifestation from God.[1] According to Baháʼu'lláh, the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, God has promised that he will send a succession of messengers that will instruct humankind.[2] In Baháʼí belief, this covenant is seen to be expressed in prophecy in the religious scripture of each religion, and each Manifestation of God, such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Báb,[3] and Baháʼu'lláh, prophesied the next Manifestation.[1] In return, the followers of each religion are seen to have a duty to investigate the claims of the following Manifestations.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh

The Lesser Covenant refers to succession of authority within each religion.

Lesser Covenant

This is the covenant that is made regarding the successorship of authority within the religion.[1] In Baháʼí belief the manner in which the Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh was clearly put forth is seen as being a fundamental defining feature of the religion and a powerful protector of the unity of the Baháʼí Faith and its adherents.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant of Baháʼu'lláh

Baha'is believe that the keys to the Kingdom were handed over to Peter. Jesus says this to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (16:19). Baha'is believe that means that Jesus made a verbal Covenant with Peter and thus we uphold and defend the primacy of Peter as the Prince of the Apostles.

However, that authority was not upheld within the Church because there was no written Covenant as there is in the Baha'i Faith, and that is why Christianity split into hundreds of sects. That will never happen to the Baha'i Faith because Baha'is are faithful to the Covenant if Baha'u'llah, and if anyone tries to break away and start another religion and call it the Baha'i Faith the are removed from membership by the Universal House of Justice and deemed Convent-breakers.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

In the old testament God said that there was going to be another covenant or testament. But he said it would be an everlasting covenant. You are saying it is not and has been replaced.

Maybe the new covenant God was referring to in the OT was the Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe the new covenant God was referring to in the OT was the Baha'i.

I do not know what Truebeliever37 was referring to when he said the following:
"In the old testament God said that there was going to be another covenant or testament. But he said it would be an everlasting covenant. You are saying it is not and has been replaced."

The Covenant that Baha'u'llah made with His followers will last until the next Messenger of God appears and makes another Covenant with His followers.

The subject of Covenants can be quite confusing, so I attempted to explain it above: #85 Trailblazer, 19 minutes ago

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And the Holy Spirit is promised to all who believe in Christ, and they become thereby, children of God and heirs with Christ.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off— to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

To me the ' we ' (or 'us') are those who will have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven. This 'we/us' is Not applying to all followers.
Jesus was still alive on Earth at the time of John 14:22-23 and those particular followers had a particularly close relationship with Jesus.
Disciples at that time frame - John 15:15-16; John 16:27-31- and they are also the 'you' addressed at verse 27.
Those disciples are the holy brothers of Hebrews 3.

I find the ' far off ' could be in reference to Acts of the Apostles 2:17 in connection to the last days of badness on Earth - 2 Timothy 3.
Thus, Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 being connected to foretold (or far off) time back then found as mentioned at Joel 2:28-32.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I do not know what Truebeliever37 was referring to when he said the following:
"In the old testament God said that there was going to be another covenant or testament. But he said it would be an everlasting covenant. You are saying it is not and has been replaced."
The Covenant that Baha'u'llah made with His followers will last until the next Messenger of God appears and makes another Covenant with His followers.............

I find the old Mosaic Law covenant gives us the knowledge of sin according to Romans 3:20.
Sin was before the Law, but without law then No imputed sin charged against anyone - Romans 5:13
Jesus appeared as Messiah fulfilled that old Law - Romans 10:4.
Yes, 'another covenant' as per Jeremiah 32:40 an 'everlasting covenant' that of being under the Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Maybe the new covenant God was referring to in the OT was the Baha'i.

I find that new covenant (Jeremiah 32:40) was referring to be in harmony with King David - Isaiah 55:3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was a physical descendant of David and the tribe of Judah remained in positions of authority after the Exile to Babylon and till the abolition of the Sanhedrin after Jesus death. (Gen 49:10)
Jesus is the one to whom the sceptre belongs and He is David's eternal successor.

.... and King David will be ' Prince ' under Christ please see Ezekiel 34:24; Isaiah 32.
When David is resurrected (Acts 2:34) he will be a prince on Earth - Psalms 45:16

 

[rational experiences]

God earth natural history.

No human.

Human a non present abstract storyteller not in the scene pretending self by theist the creator of what he perused.

Egotism.

God is natural. Naturally formed planet and heavens

Storyteller said when I did God nuclear converting science my pyramid water tower cooler of transmitted temple radio wave radiation signals overheated.

I melted stone. Temple steps my proof.

I made sin holes. Origin sun radiation cause. Which I tried to copy.

Dust on ground fissioned.

I learnt.

Rebuilt that technology in power plant. Introduced a better water cooling method.

Then with a second machine plus multi other machines did it again. Took water cooling away from my origin one God machine. And took the situation back in time.

To when water pyramid tower failed to cool radiation effect.

What I had already learnt.

I teach don't self man idolise. Yet everyday I idolise my own man self.

I need a new order ....new ideas.

Man human false creator wrong.

Must teach the female self all about my science history artificially.

Encoded a mind program transmitted it.

Humans spiritual learnt science info previously kept secreted. We were informed about groups never before informed.

Told and taught the new world information....we gave you a new answer on behalf of our real human mother who never knew that males theorised info before they acted.

Taught that realisation a new answer better than anything the man human ever thought was given.

So it owns no man status just like your fake Sophia maths science space womb stories.

Seeing our spiritual mother was only ever a human.

 

[Brian2]

That's a logical premise. The debate can never be settled anyway so this is one suitable solution to trying to make sense of the issue. Thank you, Brian.

Certainly the Jews see no problem in the Kings ceasing until their Messiah comes.

 

[Brian2]

This was my reply to you before...
"You will notice that it is "the smoke of their torment" that "ascends forever" not the torment itself that lasts forever.....have you ever seen the aftermath of a forest fire where people's homes have been lost? What remains after everything is destroyed by the fire? The smoke continues to ascend for some time as a stark reminder of what took place. This is also what I believe is meant here. The fire is not literal and neither is the smoke. Since whatever goes into the lake of fire (gehenna) is destroyed, you have to be alive to suffer torment. The 'torment' that Jesus caused the religious leaders of his day was because of his teachings, whilst they were very much alive, but "dead" in their sins....he exposed them as the worst hypocrites ever! (Matthew ch 23) That is when "the weeping and gnashing of teeth" took place. That is why they wanted to silence him."

In order to torment people they must be alive and conscious.....but the dead are neither alive or conscious. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) So the actual torment 'day and night', has to have taken place whilst they were alive. This is why the Jews wanted Jesus dead. His message was tormenting them. Please read Matthew ch 23.

After the death of the body the Bible tells us that we survive as spirit and that is how come we can be resurrected. After the second death when everything is destroyed (even though God would still remember us) there can be no resurrection. In that respect I tend to agree with the JWs about the second death, just not the first,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is plainly wrong scripturally.

 

[Brian2]

To me the ' we ' (or 'us') are those who will have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven. This 'we/us' is Not applying to all followers.
Jesus was still alive on Earth at the time of John 14:22-23 and those particular followers had a particularly close relationship with Jesus.
Disciples at that time frame - John 15:15-16; John 16:27-31- and they are also the 'you' addressed at verse 27.
Those disciples are the holy brothers of Hebrews 3.

I find the ' far off ' could be in reference to Acts of the Apostles 2:17 in connection to the last days of badness on Earth - 2 Timothy 3.
Thus, Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39 being connected to foretold (or far off) time back then found as mentioned at Joel 2:28-32.

John 14:22,23 says that "anyone" loves Jesus, He and the Father will come and make their abode with them.

If you want to please God then you need the Holy Spirit and to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8: 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

And don't let anyone tell you that there are 2 Spirit, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
There is one Spirit and that Spirit is the Lord. (1Cor 12:12,13, Eph 4:4, 2Cor 3:17)
It is sad that there is nothing that says in the Bible that the 144,000 is just a small group of Christians who are the only ones to receive the Holy Spirit, and go to heaven, and are members of the Body of Christ and are led by the Holy Spirit and are in the New Covenant etc, and there are scriptures which actually deny that (as in John 14:22,23, Acts 2: 38,39 and others) and JWs have to read into those scriptures things that aren't there.

 

[Deeje]

After the death of the body the Bible tells us that we survive as spirit and that is how come we can be resurrected.

Well according to our beliefs, the "us" is not you or me.....the chosen ones (the "elect") are the ones anointed by God who will rule with Christ in heaven as Kings and Priests (Revelation 20:6)....do you see yourself in that role?

I do not.....because I do not have that anointing that Paul called "the heavenly calling". (Hebrews 3:1) My future I hope to be on earth where God put us in the first place. The first paradise was right here, planted by God as a blueprint for the rest of the world......and so that is where I feel I belong. God never intended humans to live in heaven or else he would have put us there in the first place, like he did the angels.

There is no "spirit" in man that survives death. We "sleep" and Jesus is the one appointed to awaken all those who are in "memorial tombs" (John 5:28-29)...those whom God will choose to remember and who will have their lives restored.
The only 'spirits' that goes to heaven are those for whom God has provided a spiritual body for their assignment in heaven. They first have to die and be resurrected because you cannot resurrect something that is not dead.
These anointed had to sleep until Christ's return according to Paul. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) He has been "present" since the last days began, guiding and directing the preaching work that he assigned to his disciples. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14)

After the second death when everything is destroyed (even though God would still remember us) there can be no resurrection.

The second death can only apply to the incorrigibly wicked. The "lake of fire" is symbolic, not literal. "Gehenna" is a place where things are wiped out of existence forever....including death and the grave. (Revelation 20:13-14)

In that respect I tend to agree with the JWs about the second death, just not the first,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is plainly wrong scripturally.

It isn't wrong scripturally if your interpretation is correct. We don't believe our take on the scriptures is wrong because we retain none of the false doctrines that are still promoted by Christendom...one of those false doctrines is the immortality of the soul...or the belief that the soul does not die when the body does.

 

[Deeje]

I've always heard the Bible never contradicts itself even when two or more passage say the exact opposite thing.

Examples please....

This is why Christianity has three distinct camps each of them having millions of followers who believe in one of the three. Never contradicts itself, indeed.

Why do you blame the Bible or God for the errors of man? There is just one truth and God is the one who guides those with the qualities that he is looking for in future citizens of his Kingdom, to his truth. (John 6:44, 65)

It keeps out the undesirables.....the Kingdom will "come"...but not in the way that most people have been taught. (Daniel 2:44) All the undesirables will be eliminated from existence so that there will be no rebels or those who want to do their own thing and ignore God's rules.

Under the Kingdom, only those who have proven that they can do as they are instructed will retain their lives and get back to what God purposed for this earth in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[Deeje]

It is sad that there is nothing that says in the Bible that the 144,000 is just a small group of Christians who are the only ones to receive the Holy Spirit, and go to heaven, and are members of the Body of Christ and are led by the Holy Spirit and are in the New Covenant etc, and there are scriptures which actually deny that (as in John 14:22,23, Acts 2: 38,39 and others) and JWs have to read into those scriptures things that aren't there.

John 14:22-23 is addressed to the Christians whom Jesus would take into the "new covenant". That was not until the night before his death. Their anointing did not take place until after his ascension....at the Festival of Pentecost......only then did they understand the full implications of their choosing.

In context V 15-22....
“If you love me, you will observe my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you. 18 I will not leave you bereaved. I am coming to you. 19 In a little while the world will see me no more, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in union with my Father and you are in union with me and I am in union with you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. In turn, whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly show myself to him.”

22 Judas, not Is·carʹi·ot, said to him: “Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself clearly to us and not to the world?”

23 In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him."

The only ones who loved Jesus and who were to "dwell" with him are the ones he promised a place for in heaven....those identified as future "kings and priests" who will rule with Christ in the spirit realm. (Revelation 20:6) If all Christians go to heaven, we will have all Chiefs and no Indians....

Those who go to heaven are numbered, whereas those who form their earthly subjects (attributing their salvation to God and the Lamb) are not. (Revelation 7:4, 9-10, 13-14) Revelation 14:1-5 tells us that those 144,000 are "bought from the earth are firstfruits to God and to the Lamb". Why are they "first"...and who comes after?

And...who do they rule over? And for whom do they act as priests? There are no sinners in heaven and those who are "kings" do not rule over each other. The "great crowd" are "saved".

Revelation 21:2-4 is a view of the future and it has mankind benefiting from the rulership of Christ and his bride. Death and suffering will never be endured again....."the former things have passed away".

Human life will go back to the way it was meant to be at the beginning, because God always finishes what he starts (Isaiah 55:11)

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Examples please....

Gladly. Would 30 be sufficient?

1.
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. —Luke 12:10

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. —Romans 10:13

Opposites
___________________________________________
2.
"And this shall be a statute forever for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites." And it was done, as the LORD commanded Moses. Leviticus 16:34

He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.” Hebrews 7:27

Question: is the Old Covenant law of animal sacrifice once a year really to be continued forever per Yahweh's command or was it cancelled by Jesus' death?

Opposites
________________________________________________

3.
The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. —Revelation 8:7

And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. —Revelation 9:4

Opposites
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4.
For by grace are ye saved through faith…not of works. —Ephesians 2:8,9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. —James 2:24

Opposites
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5.
For I am the Lord; I change not. —Malachi 3:6

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. —Exodus 32:14

Opposites
____________________________________________________

6.
No man hath seen God at any time. —John 1:18

For I have seen God face to face. —Genesis 32:30

Six will have to suffice for lack of space.

Why do you blame the Bible or God for the errors of man? There is just one truth and God is the one who guides those with the qualities that he is looking for in future citizens of his Kingdom, to his truth. (John 6:44, 65)

It keeps out the undesirables.....the Kingdom will "come"...but not in the way that most people have been taught. (Daniel 2:44) All the undesirables will be eliminated from existence so that there will be no rebels or those who want to do their own thing and ignore God's rules.

Under the Kingdom, only those who have proven that they can do as they are instructed will retain their lives and get back to what God purposed for this earth in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4)

I don't blame God. I don't think God had anything to do with the creation of the Bible. It's a man-made effort for my money. But Christians view it as inerrant when clearly it isn't as I pointed out above.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I give every response thoughtful consideration. I've always heard the Bible never contradicts itself even when two or more passage say the exact opposite thing. This is why Christianity has three distinct camps each of them having millions of followers who believe in one of the three. Never contradicts itself, indeed.

It really isn’t self-contradictory. Only when misunderstood...

If one thinks of the many different sects of Christianity, over 30,000(!!), it may seem overwhelming! (All of this simply attests to the fact that it’s been monkeyed with ... tampered with ... by the Enemy of truth revealed in John 8:44.)

So, how can one find it? By following what Jesus said, @ John 13:35...

You don’t necessarily have to worry about what are correct teachings... at least, not initially ; but rather, Jesus indicated to look at their actions / behavior. Matthew 7:18-23

When you find that, then examine the teachings.