Is it sin?

[Samael_Khan]

Describing things as sin has absolutely no meaning to me. Morality for me is about avoiding and where possible preventing unnecessary suffering, and while I accept this is a subjective view, it at least has the merit of treating everyone the same, regardless of their beliefs, or the lack thereof. Don't like abortion, don't have one, don't like unmarried sex or masturbation, don't do it, don't like blasphemy or vituperation, don't do it, don't like gay people, keep it to yourself. just let others live their lives, and you live yours.

The only meaning sin has to me sin the context of the religion I am addressing. I actually consider morality, absolute right and wrong to be a religious concept, which is what is considered good and evil varies so much between religions. And I don't think that many non believers in the west realise that that very concept of morality is an inheritance of Abrahamic tradition. So in a way they carry that religious idea with them. In the east, that concept, in most cases, is non existent (as far as I have researched).

The way I approach it is: What is the goal we want to achieve? What actions are best suited to attaining that goal and what actions undermine that goal? This renders good and evil to be matters of perspective.

I would say that the goal that most of us aim for is a harmonious society that maximizes well being among us all. And your point caters to that goal.

 

[Samael_Khan]

"Sinful nature"

I dont think that appears in any psych studies

I am speaking in the Abrahamic context, because their own concept of sin renders the posters initial point flawed.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe you can dish it out

Dish what out, I haven't used ad hominem, it was you resorting to ad hominem attacks with petty insult.

but are too sensitive to dedicate your spare time undermining people's faith in God? After all, what kind of a person would do that?

What on earth does that even mean? If debate undermines your beliefs, then don't make claims about those beliefs in a public debate forum. Or go to a part of the forum where only like minded theists post, and you will get the echo chamber you seem to want here.

One more time then this is a public debate forum. Any claims ideas beliefs or assertions will be subject to critical examination. Not sure why you can't grasp that simple concept?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Interesting that this came up:
Billie Eilish reveals she watched porn at young age, calls it 'a disgrace'

 

[Audie]

I am speaking in the Abrahamic context, because their own concept of sin renders the posters initial point flawed.

Had to be sure

 

[Audie]

Dish what out, I haven't used ad hominem, it was you resorting to ad hominem attacks and petty insult.



What on earth does that eve mean? If debate undermines your beliefs, then make claims in a public debate forum.

One more time then this is a public debate forum. Any claims ideas beliefs or assertions will be subject to critical examination. Not sure why you can't grasp that simple concept?

Do you try to undermine faith?

Or just dumb ideas people foolishly try to
make integral to their faith.

 

[Sheldon]

The only meaning sin has to me sin the context of the religion I am addressing.

Fair enough, that seems reasonable.

I actually consider morality, absolute right and wrong to be a religious concept, which is what is considered good and evil varies so much between religions.

They often do present those concepts in this way, but I don't believe that, rather concepts like good or evil are subjective nd relative.

And I don't think that many non believers in the west realise that that very concept of morality is an inheritance of Abrahamic tradition.

Oh I'm not sure that is often true, it certainly hasn't been my experience of most of the atheists I've encountered. Religions evolve alongside evolving societies and cultural influences go in both directions it seems to me.

So in a way they carry that religious idea with them. In the east, that concept, in most cases, is non existent (as far as I have researched).

Not sure I follow, and thinking of concepts like morality in terms of east and west is perhaps a little too facile for such a complex topic as morality, but certainly cultures are influenced by religions and religions by cultures they exist in.

The way I approach it is: What is the goal we want to achieve? What actions are best suited to attaining that goal and what actions undermine that goal? This renders good and evil to be matters of perspective.

I see nothing to disagree with there, the basis for one's morality is subjective, I don't think it can be otherwise, but once we agree broadly we can agree on how best to serve that morality. many theists I encounter though, as we see here in some cases, seem to care less about the physical and emotional well being of other humans than they do about adherence to archaic dogma and doctrine, some of which is demonstrably pernicious.

I would say that the goal that most of us aim for is a harmonious society that maximizes well being among us all. And your point caters to that goal.

Well thank you, it's not an accident obviously, despite what some theists often claim about atheists, we are at least as moral as they are. I'm not sure I'm as optimistic as your first sentence though, but there are plenty of decent people, who strive for high ideals.

 

[Sheldon]

Do you try to undermine faith?

Or just dumb ideas people foolishly try to
make integral to their faith.

Well I subject all ideas and claims, my own included to critical scrutiny, as that seems to be what debate is for. If debate undermines his faith, then the answer couldn't be more obvious I'd have thought. The fact he has offered naught but bare claims and logical fallacies is hardly my fault.

 

[Sheldon]

Interesting that this came up:
Billie Eilish reveals she watched porn at young age, calls it 'a disgrace'

No one has suggested that anyone underage should be subjected to pornography in any way. Only to the bizarre unevidenced claims others are making about it, like the absurd claim causes poisons in your brain.

 

[Sheldon]

Poor Sheldon, a heckler on a religious forum and just can't understand what the problem is.....

I am not heckling anyone, and this is not a religious forum, it is a forum for general religious debate. The problems are twofold, firstly you want to keep posting claims about your belief, but don't want anyone to question them , or create counter arguments, which is bizarre in a debate forum. Secondly having used several known logical fallacies and had them pointed out, you resorted to ad hominem using petty insult, as you have done here again sadly.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No one has suggested that anyone underage should be subjected to pornography in any way. Only to the bizarre unevidenced claims others are making about it, like the absurd claim causes poisons in your brain.

I didn't claim that's what anyone here was promoting. It was an example of how the free and easy access of hardcore porn online can harm people, especially young people. There are little or no real safeguards to keep it away from minors. This is a serious social issue and we need a solution to it.

 

[Polymath257]

Why are you in a religious sight if you do not know God? God has allready dictated how one should live. I share his truths.

This site has a members based on great number of different religious beliefs. Not all are theistic. Not all of the theists are monotheistic.

Sometimes even atheists like to discuss the effects of religion on society. For example, the distorted concepts around nudity, sexuality, and pornography.

 

[Polymath257]

I dont mind debate. I like someone to know what the bible teaches so they know what they are talking about.

Not everyone takes the Bible as authoritative.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
No one has suggested that anyone underage should be subjected to pornography in any way. Only to the bizarre unevidenced claims others are making about it, like the absurd claim causes poisons in your brain.

I didn't claim that's what anyone here was promoting. It was an example of how the free and easy access of hardcore porn online can harm people, especially young people. There are little or no real safeguards to keep it away from minors. This is a serious social issue and we need a solution to it.

Fine but you are demonstrating an example of something no one thinks should be allowed, underage children having access to pornography is wrong. In the UK and in the US it is illegal of course, as I imagine it is in many other countries.

So no one is disputing children under the age of consent should be kept away from pornography.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Fine but you are demonstrating an example of something no one thinks should be allowed, underage children having access to pornography is wrong. In the UK and in the US it is illegal of course, as I imagine it is in many other countries.

So no one is disputing children under the age of consent should be kept away from pornography.

That's nice, but we're not doing much of anything to actually keep it away from them, which is what the issue is. I know it's illegal. I'm not stupid. You don't have to state the obvious.

 

[kjw47]

Yet, people are prone to doing the same "sins" over and over again because of their sinful nature and how life has conditioned them to be. There is a difference between "sinning" because of your nature, and "sinning" as blatant rebellion towards who you perceive to be the true God. Those scriptures are referring to the latter. Ironically I have never come across a believer who does not in some form succumb to the latter.

Yes it is a battle between the flesh and the spirit. Yes all sin, some practice them. That makes one a worker of iniquity and will hear these words from Jesus as judgement-Matthew 7:21-23--He assures all there in 21--Those living now( in this satan ruled system) to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom.
At 1 Cor 6_9-11 says--This is what some of you were= past tense. They do not do the sins in those 2 lists.( Gal 5:19-21)
One of the reasons Jesus taught--Few will find the road leading off into life. Few can beat their flesh.

 

[kjw47]

This site has a members based on great number of different religious beliefs. Not all are theistic. Not all of the theists are monotheistic.

Sometimes even atheists like to discuss the effects of religion on society. For example, the distorted concepts around nudity, sexuality, and pornography.

There are no distorted concepts only in the unwise who do not listen to God.

 

[Sheldon]

That's nice, but we're not doing much of anything to actually keep it away from them, which is what the issue is. I know it's illegal. I'm not stupid. You don't have to state the obvious.

There are some things you have to rely on parental guidance for, as I can't see how else to police what children do in their own homes. maybe internet providers could add mandatory security checks for accessing material deemed inappropriate for children, but of course if parents don't used those safeguards then it's hard to see what else we can do. this is less about pornography than about protecting children in an online environment, and that extends way beyond that.

Again this is separate from the earlier claims made about pornography. Since I doubt anyone thinks it is appropriate for children to be viewing such material.

 

[kjw47]

Not everyone takes the Bible as authoritative.

Yes all in darkness. 99% of all religions claiming to be christian reside in darkness. They do not listen to Jesus. They are these-2Corinthians 11:12-15)-- The ones telling all they are saved.

 

[Sheldon]

There are no distorted concepts only in the unwise who do not listen to God.

You don't get to decide that for others who don't share your beliefs on those issues, and that seems like another no true Scotsman fallacy again. The claim it is unwise not to listen to a deity, is meaningless to an atheist for a start.