I just want to sin!!!

[leroy]

Then you have misunderstood the claim, as it was that a deity knows exactly what I will choose, before I choose it. .

So what? you don’t even need to be a deity, I know with high degree of certainty that my wife would choose strawberries over apples if I give her the option, and it could be that I have this knowledge before she is even aware of the fact that will give her the option to choose between apples and strawberries.

My point is that if you gran that my wife has the ability to choose between apples and strawberries, then my own personal prior knowledge shouldn’t affect the fact that she freely made that choice.

 

[muhammad_isa]

STOP MAKING STATEMENTS AND ASSIGNING MY NAME TO THEM PLEASE? Those are not quotes from my posts...

OK .. sorry.

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make that G-d knows, could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?

Apparently you are, which means that G-d is not omniscient.
That is a contradiction.

 

[leroy]

This was not the claim, once again it is not knowledge of our choice, what was claimed was that a deity knew exactly what we will choose, beforehand. If this were true then any other choices would be an illusion.

From the fact that God knows exactly what choices are you going to make, it doesn’t follow that your choices are not free. (at the very list you have some hidden premises)

Let me help you :

Premise 1 God know exactly what you are going to choose

Premise 2 ????????????

Therefore your choices are not free /all choices are an illusion.

What would be premise 2 such that the conclusion logically follows?

 

[leroy]

It was never free to begin with if there is foreknowledge.

And with the absence of foreknowledge can you have free choices?.......... how does the absence of fore knowledge magically changes your choices from free to “not free”?

Let’s that God is not all knowing, nor perfect (sometimes he forgets his prior knowledge)……….. would that magically restore the possibility of free choices?

Lets say that the time traveler knows that you will choose hamburgers rather than hotdogs this weekend, then pretend that this time traveler has bad memory and forgot about your choice…………..does that magically restore the possibility of free choices?

 

[Sheldon]

So what? you don’t even need to be a deity, I know with high degree of certainty that my wife would choose strawberries over apples if I give her the option, and it could be that I have this knowledge before she is even aware of the fact that will give her the option to choose between apples and strawberries.

My point is that if you gran that my wife has the ability to choose between apples and strawberries, then my own personal prior knowledge shouldn’t affect the fact that she freely made that choice.

I just explained that the claim was not a high degree of certainty, so why you're repeating those analogies when they are moot only you can know.

If I have two choices A or B, and before I make my choice a deity (as that was the claim lets stick with it) knows which one I will ultimately make, then I axiomatically cannot choose otherwise. The choice would have been an illusion.

 

[leroy]

Yes it does, those are mutually exclusive.

Maybe, but you have to justify that argument., so far you are just claiming it without any evidence nor argument.

Semantics, as this is not what was claimed. We are not talking about a high degree of certainty, we are talking about knowing exactly what we will do, before we do it. that would negate us doing anything else.

Ok so is I know with 99% certainty that she will choose strawberries she might be freely choosing,

But if I know that with 100% certainty this chose magically becomes “not-free”? how does that work?

 

[Sheldon]

OK .. sorry.

Are you claiming that a choice that you will make that G-d knows, could be a choice that you didn't WANT to make?

Apparently you are, which means that G-d is not omniscient.
That is a contradiction.

Just quote my post, it's not hard is it? You claimed a deity knows what we will choose before we choose it.

Again let's make this as simple as possible:

I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

 

[Sheldon]

Maybe, but you have to justify that argument., so far you are just claiming it without any evidence nor argument.

Your claim violates the law of non contradiction.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans were taught by scientists human we don't own sin.

A human is a human as a human being human.

Sin ended gods earth O body life as a sin K hole.

We lost biology water oxygen microbes. The human life body mind changed. The human a human lives by body presence chooses by behaviours the body self expressed.

We then say you are a bad human as observed the bad human by choice behaviour human.

Only seen notified as a human observing a human.

The real teaching.

Most bible theists interpret incorrectly as they never understood science personally involved in the books writing actually.

We were innocent of science.

 

[Sheldon]

But if I know that with 100% certainty this chose magically becomes “not-free”? how does that work?

If I have two choices A or B, and a deity (as that was the claim) knows which one I will ultimately make, then I axiomatically cannot choose otherwise. The choice would have been an illusion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Just quote my post, it's not hard is it? You claimed a deity knows what we will choose before we choose it.

Again let's make this as simple as possible:

I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

It is not an illusion. You made a choice.
You are claiming that you had no free-will when making that choice, because you have to choose what G-d knows.
THAT IS NOT WHY YOU CHOSE IT, but you are claiming it is.
..or are you saying that you didn't want to choose A ???

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And with the absence of foreknowledge can you have free choices?.......... how does the absence of fore knowledge magically changes your choices from free to “not free”?

It's not magical. If the outcome is known in advanced then it is not free or fair. In sports the outcome would said to be fixed.
But if the choice is not known and it can happen in multiple ways then the choice has always been free. In politics this is called a free and fair election.
Nothing magically changes, it's just how it always is.

Lets say that the time traveler knows that you will choose hamburgers rather than hotdogs this weekend, then pretend that this time traveler has bad memory and forgot about your choice…………..does that magically restore the possibility of free choices?

That is going back in time to observe what has already happened. It can't happen any other way. In this example it's no different than watching a tape of the '96 Olympics.
Free will deals with questions of the future. If it's already known what we do then we can't choose different.
And time travel itself demolishes free will, because going to the past or future does necessitate that events happen exactly as they did or time paradoxes that cannot be remedied will occur.

 

[Sheldon]

It is not an illusion. You made a choice.
You are claiming that you had no free-will when making that choice, because you have to choose what G-d knows.
THAT IS NOT WHY YOU CHOSE IT, but you are claiming it is.
..or are you saying that you didn't want to choose A ???

I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong? If the deity knows I will choose A or B, then it knows no more than I do.

 

[ppp]

So what? you don’t even need to be a deity, I know with high degree of certainty that my wife would choose strawberries over apples if I give her the option, and it could be that I have this knowledge before she is even aware of the fact that will give her the option to choose between apples and strawberries.

My point is that if you gran that my wife has the ability to choose between apples and strawberries, then my own personal prior knowledge shouldn’t affect the fact that she freely made that choice.

If an Omni deity created this universe, then he chose this universe and all the events that take place in it. And all of the events includes all your choices

 

[muhammad_isa]

I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong? If the deity I will choose A or B, then it knows no more than I do.

You can repeat that to your heart's content.
That is not a conversation.
You are just having a laugh.

I suspect that you don't answer my questions because you know what I'm saying is true.
i.e. we have free-will whether the future is known or unknown

 

[muhammad_isa]

If an Omni deity created this universe, then he chose this universe and all the events that take place in it. And all of the events includes all your choices

Right, then you were acting for G-d when you wrote your post?

No, of course not .. because you don't "believe" in G-d.
I do, and I say you were acting for yourself. It is your account, not G-d's.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Free will deals with questions of the future. If it's already known what we do then we can't choose different.

What is the reason for "what we do"? Is it because "we can't choose any different", or is it because that is what we choose to do?

You appear to be saying that we choose to do something because we have no choice. If we have no choice, then there is nothing for G-d to know

 

[Sheldon]

You can repeat that to your heart's content.
That is not a conversation.
You are just having a laugh.

I suspect that you don't answer my questions because you know what I'm saying is true.
i.e. we have free-will whether the future is known or unknown

I did answer your question. Not only did I answer your question, I answered very explicitly, and I answered it twice, and for all to see. You are the one who is blindly repeating your claim, emboldened. If my argument is wrong, then you have pointedly failed to even attempt to explain why, and the inference from that handwaving is pretty obvious. Here is the argument again then, just to show your bad faith in denying I answered you.

"I have two choices A or B. You claim that a deity knows I will choose A, thus I could never have chosen B, obviously, and the free will to choose B over A was only an illusion.

If a deity knows I will choose A, then how can I choose B without the deity being wrong? If a deity knows I will choose B then how can I choose A, without the deity being wrong? If the deity I will choose A or B, then it knows no more than I do."

 

[Sheldon]

Right, then you were acting for G-d when you wrote your post?

No, of course not .. because you don't "believe" in G-d.
I do, and I say you were acting for yourself. It is your account, not G-d's.

He was drawing a rational inference. You're response is an irrelevant straw man, and doesn't attempt to address his post at all.

 

[Sheldon]

You appear to be saying that we choose to do something because we have no choice. If we have no choice, then there is nothing for G-d to know

Oh good grief man, that's not remotely what she posted, stop misrepresenting what people say. She spoke plainly enough.

Shadow Wolf said: ↑
Free will deals with questions of the future. If it's already known what we do then we can't choose different.

This is a logical inference, it has nothing to do with