Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[ppp]

Religion is also unverifiable because it cannot be proven true.

You keep saying similar sentences as though they are significant. I don't understand how that is supposed to matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

Shifting the blame doesn't explain why it happened.

It happened because many religious leaders aspired to power and control and people had free will to choose to make it happen.

Yes. And you failed to answer that question.

Tiberius said: ↑
Can you give me any reason at all why anyone should accept a claim as accurate if the accuracy of said claim can not be shown?

I needed confirmation of what you were asking before I answered the question. Now that I have that confirmation I will answer the question.

You said yes, you are asking why anyone should believe the Baha’i Faith is true if the claim of Baha’u’llah to have received a message from God cannot be proven to be true.

I cannot say what other people ‘should believe.’ That is their own choice. I can only offer my opinion of what I consider reasonable. I think it is reasonable to believe the Baha’i Faith is true even if the claim of Baha’u’llah to have received a message from God cannot be proven to be true. I think it is reasonable because the evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was making a true claim. I think it is unreasonable to expect to be able to prove (verify) His claim to have received a message from God since the nature of the claim is unverifiable. Try to think about why such a claim can never be verified.

We've been over this. Proving it to themselves isn't actually PROVING it.

The nature of the claim makes it unverifiable and as such it can never be proven as a fact. It can only be believed to be true.

So you BELIEVE that your INTERPRETATION of the evidence means it is true. But your beliefs and your interpretations are not infallible, are they?

That is all I have, my own interpretation of the evidence, and what my interpretation of the evidence means to me is that it is true. I never said I am infallible, no human is infallible.

Is that your excuse for everything? "You can't compare it because it's not the same thing!" You've trotted this out whenever you have been faced with some uncomfortable point. You've used everything from, "You can't compare cars and religion because they aren't the same thing," to "You can't compare Bahai and Christianity because they aren't the same thing."

Why would I need an excuse for choosing not comparing Baha’i to other religions before I became a Baha’i?

I already explained the reason why I did not compare Baha’i to other religions. I was not looking for a religion at that time, I just stumbled upon it. If I did not even want a religion, why would I compare Baha’i to other religions?

It seems you won't be satisfied until we are comparing one thing with itself - which voids any purpose of having a comparison in the first place!

I could have compared Baha’i to Christianity but it would not have made any difference because I would have picked Baha’i.

And how is that any different to people choosing a car to buy?

Other Tesla owners probably looked at other cars before they chose a Tesla because they were searching for a car, but I was not searching for a car so I did not look at other cars. I was attracted to the Tesla car because of its zero emission engine, not to the Tesla brand. I did not even think in terms of brands back then because I was not raised with brand loyalty and I knew nothing about cars.

See how the same reasoning works just as well?

That analogy works. Let’s say that I was not looking for a car but I just happened to see a For Sale sign on a really cool car and I wanted to buy that car even though I did not need a car at that time. That is what happened to me. I was not looking for a religion and I did not need a religion but I just happened to hear about the Baha’i Faith and I thought it was a really cool religion so I wanted to join it, after I did my due diligence and read all about it.

Other Baha’is probably looked at other religions before they chose the Baha’i Faith because they were searching for a religion but I was not searching for a religion and I knew nothing about religions.

If someone believes a thing to be true when there is no actual real world evidence for that thing, do you consider them to be one of those gullible people?

I think they would be gullible to believe in something with no actual real world evidence for that thing.

And would those tests eliminate a person who is NOT a prophet?

It might, but it depends upon the test.

Funny how God answers your prayer and does something which could have happened by itself, and yet God never answers the prayers of the guy with a life changing injury to get healed so he can provide for his family.

It could have happened by itself but I don’t think it is a mere coincidence that every time I pray for posts to subside they do, and when I don’t pray for that I get 20 or more posts overnight! God does answer prayers but only at His discretion. Often people are healed of diseases and injuries after they said prayers for healing. There are many instances of a disease that was cured or an injury nobody ever thought would heal, but it did, against all odds.

You really don't understand how peer review works or why it's important, do you?

I think it is you who does not understand how peer review works. Its purpose is not to remove personal biases. Find me one article that says that is what peer review is used for.

Ah, so you ended up with something you weren't really after, but you took it anyway, you learned to live with it, and you got so used to living with it that changing it to adapt to something new is too much an inconvenience to you - even if ultimately the new thing is better.

No, I was not looking for a Honda CRV, I was looking for a Honda Odyssey, since that is the vehicle I had that was totaled and I really liked it. I do not go off road or drive when there is snow or ice so I really did not need a four-wheel drive vehicle, but there were no Odysseys for sale locally so I went and looked at the CRV. As it turned out it was in perfect condition even though it was a 1999 (that was in 2016). I found that out when I took it to my mechanic and he did the 100 point check and verified its condition. At that juncture the smart thing to do was purchase it since CRVs are not easy to come by. It took a little getting used to since it sits up higher and loading heavy items is more difficult, but overall it is easier to drive than the Odyssey and I do not need a van since I never carry any passengers.

My CRV got rear-ended by a Camaro a few weeks ago and I was so bummed because it was deemed a total loss by my insurance, but I decided to keep it for the deduction of the salvage value which was only about $800, and I walked away with $5000 in my pocket. I don’t like having a dent but I can live with it since it does not affect the functionality. I pay top dollar for car insurance and it is worth every penny. You never know when you are going to have an accident. I have been driving for 52 years and I never had an accident that was my fault but I have had three accidents that were the other driver’s fault.

I had the same with a keyboard recently. I had an old keyboard that needed to be replaced, so I was forced to get a new one. The new one is a bit of a different layout, so I have to get used to it (for example, on my old keyboard the caps lock key was right at the edge of the keyboard, but the new one has function keys there, so I find my fingers going to the same position relative to the edge of the keyboard as my old one, and I keep hitting the Caps Lock key when I mean to type A, and it leADS TO ME WRITING SENTENCES HALF CAPITALISED LIKE THIS when I press the Caps Lock key and the A key at the same time. I just have to learn to do things a different way. And yes, this new keyboard is much nicer.

That reminds me of what happened to me about six years ago. I always used a desktop computer and I had never used a laptop. In fact, I had purchased a new laptop when we moved but I never even took it out of the box for five years! Then push came to shove when my desktop got a bad virus so I had to use the laptop, and after that I never wanted to go back to using the desktop, even though it was all rebuilt and has a larger monitor and more RAM and disk space. I also fought going from Windows 98 to Windows 7 but after I got Windows 7 I liked it a lot better than Windows 98.

Recently I was reluctant to switch to Windows 10 but I got another laptop because my old one was on the blink and the laptop I found had Windows 10, and that made more sense since Windows 7 is no longer supported by Microsoft. I was already familiar with Windows 10 since that is what I use for my job so it was not that bad switching over. I type so much that most of the keys on both my older laptops were worn off so I had to put labels on them, but this new used laptop has a lighted keyboard and that is a great feature. I cannot believe I kept using that old laptop until one day I could not even get on the internet because Firefox was not working. I keep it for backup because it works off and on but the computer technician said there is something wrong with it. No kidding! Now that I have another laptop I know it is not normal for a laptop to make a cycling noise constantly and heat up like a stove! It is funny how we often put up with things until we can no longer tolerate them!

I feel that way about my house but it makes more sense to fix what is wrong rather than sell and buy another house. I have three houses so I could move into one of the others if there were no tenants there but finally after many years of bad tenants I have good long-term tenants in both houses so it makes sense to keep them.

 

[Trailblazer]

You keep saying similar sentences as though they are significant. I don't understand how that is supposed to matter.

The reason it matters is because religions cannot be proven to be true.

People are always asking me to prove that my religion is true but as I keep telling @Tiberius we can only prove to ourselves that a religion is true. A religion can never be proven true as a fact that everyone will believe.
See what I just posted to Tiberius above.

 

[ppp]

The reason it matters is because religions cannot be proven to be true.

Following from your prior posts, what you just said is, The reason [Religion is also unverifiable because it cannot be proven true] matters is because religions cannot be proven to be true. That literally tells me nothing at all.

People are always asking me to prove that my religion is true but as I keep telling @Tiberius we can only prove to ourselves that a religion is true.

People ask you that because you say that your beliefs are true (putting the words "I believe" in front of sentences doesn't fool anyone, except RF censors). When you make these claims (and they are claims), no one cares if you have proved it to yourself. What people care about is whether there is good reason for them to believe that your claims (and they are claims) are true, or likely true.. The fact that your have proved it to yourself is never, ever going to be sufficient to ward off demands for evidence. Never. Ever..

 

[Trailblazer]

Following from your prior posts, what you just said is, The reason [Religion is also unverifiable because it cannot be proven true] matters is because religions cannot be proven to be true. That literally tells me nothing at all.

It tells you want I said. Religious beliefs cannot be proven to be true because they cannot be verified.

People ask you that because you say that your beliefs are true (putting the words "I believe" in front of sentences doesn't fool anyone, except RF censors). When you make these claims (and they are claims), no one cares if you have proved it to yourself. What people care about is whether there is good reason for them to believe that your claims (and they are claims) are true, or likely true.. The fact that your have proved it to yourself is never, ever going to be sufficient to ward off demands for evidence. Never. Ever..

You can call them claims if you want to but by definition they are not claims, they are beliefs.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

Of course I know that he fact that your have proved it to myself is never, ever going to be sufficient to ward off demands for evidence. Tell me something I don't know.

People demand evidence, I present evidence and then they say "that's not evidence!" What am I supposed to do? I only have what I have.

 

[ppp]

It tells you want I said. Religious beliefs cannot be proven to be true because they cannot be verified.

I already knew what you said. As I said it tells me nothing.

You can call them claims if you want

I can and I do.

Of course I know that he fact that your have proved it to myself is never, ever going to be sufficient to ward off demands for evidence. Tell me something I don't know.

Well, you certainly act like you don't know it.

People demand evidence, I present evidence

You don't. You say that you believe that X is true. That is not evidence of anything but the fact that you believe it.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't. You say that you believe that X is true. That is not evidence of anything but the fact that you believe it.

No, what I believe is not evidence of anything. I presented the evidence that led me to what I believe.
Then I was told "that's not evidence!" It is not my problem that people don't like the evidence.

 

[samtonga43]

Yes, I believe on the basis of what I believe is evidence.
And if it is evidence then my beliefs are true. You cannot change that by stalking me.

If it is not evidence then your beliefs are not true.

My beliefs seem to bother you. Otherwise I have no idea why you keep stalking me.

LOL! Hint of persecution complex here! No, I am not ‘stalking you’, Tb, and your beliefs don’t bother me in the slightest. But I have noticed that you accuse people of being ‘bothered’ when you come across something you find difficult to deal with. This is called transference.

Stalking me is not going to get rid of me. I'll leave when I am ready.

I don't think anyone wants to get rid of you, Tb. You may be attaching too much importance to yourself...?
As I said, I find the way you think to be very interesting, and I’m sure others do too.

The Christian on another forum does not like my beliefs either but I told him that's too bad.

‘Either’? You are falsely assuming something here. Try to work out what it is.
(By the way, how many forums do you post in, on this subject?)

Other people deserve to know the truth about Return of Christ rather than his fantasy rapture beliefs.

The truth? Oh, you mean what you believe is the truth. Haven’t you said yourself that beliefs are not necessarily true?

 

[Trailblazer]

Haven’t you said yourself that beliefs are not necessarily true?

No, because I know they are true.

It is none of your business what I believe. You have your own beliefs, and if you are confident that they are true I cannot understand why what I believe would bother you, and if it did not bother you I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep bring up MY BELIEFS, over and over and over again.

 

[Sheldon]

Can you prove any religion is false?

Since it is you, and not me who is claiming all of them are false except yours, can you?

I have made no such claim, since atheism is merely the lack or absence of belief in any deity or deities.

 

[Sheldon]

No, religion does not make itself unfalsifiable. Religion is by its very nature unfalsifiable, since it cannot be proven true or false.

Religion is also unverifiable because it cannot be proven true.

I know....food for thought, assuming one wishes to think with an open mind of course.

 

[Sheldon]

The reason it matters is because religions cannot be proven to be true.

I have yet to see a shred of objective evidence to support any, more tellingly perhaps. You know what else can't be proven to be true? All untrue claims, again food for thought to any open minded person, one would like to imagine.

 

[Sheldon]

they are not claims, they are beliefs.

Claim:
1. to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

It's painful to see semantics fail so completely.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's painful to see semantics fail so completely.

What is painful is when people do not read the definitions and understand what they mean.
When I say I believe or I know that is not a claim by any stretch of the imagination.
It is an acceptance that what I believe or know is true.

Please provide any posts where I SAID, STATED, or ASSERTED that my beliefs are true.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=claim+means

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
https://www.google.com/search

Belief:
the feeling of being certain that something exists or is true:
His belief in God gave him hope during difficult times.
Recent scandals have shaken many people's belief in (= caused people to have doubts about) politicians.
belief

 

[Sheldon]

When I say I believe or I know that is not a claim by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes it absolutely is.

Please provide any posts where I SAID, STATED, or ASSERTED that my beliefs are true.

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

From your own post above.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes it absolutely is.

I believe or I know is not a claim, NOT by any stretch of the imagination.
It is simply a statement about what I believe and what I know.
It is a statement of my own certitude and it has nothing to do with anyone else.
I am not claiming it is true just because I believe it is true. There is no logical connection at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Please provide any posts where I SAID, STATED, or ASSERTED that my beliefs are true.

Sheldon said: From your own post above.

Trailblazer said: ↑
Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

An acceptance that my belief is true is not a claim that it is true.
I believe that my belief is true. I never claimed that my belief is true.

As nouns the difference between claim and belief is that claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence.

What is the difference between claim and belief? | WikiDiff

 

[samtonga43]

Aren't you claiming that what you believe is true?

 

[Trailblazer]

Aren't you claiming that what you believe is true?

No. A belief is not a claim. A belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth.

As nouns the difference between claim and belief is that claim is a demand of ownership made for something (eg claim ownership, claim victory) while belief is mental acceptance of a claim as truth regardless of supporting or contrary empirical evidence.

What is the difference between claim and belief? | WikiDiff

 

[samtonga43]

No, because I know they are true

Do you know the difference between objective and subjective truth?.

It is none of your business what I believe

.
Really? Why then are you submitting thousands of posts to many threads on many forums?

You have your own beliefs, and if you are confident that they are true I cannot understand why what I believe would bother you, and if it did not bother you I cannot for the life of me understand why you keep bring up MY BELIEFS, over and over and over again.

I have answered these questions.