There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[joelr]

Seems you just want to blame God instead of people. What happens for example is God says all sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality, pretty clear, even looking at someone with lust, or the only sex that God has said is appropriate is sex between a man and woman within the marriage covenant.
People don’t like this and then the justifications, rationalizations, twisting of Scripture.
Or Baptism, when and how. It’s clear in Scripture but then we have baby baptisms and sprinkling, not even biblical.
The Bible is clear that Jesus is the only way for salvation, then you actually have people claiming to be Christians saying there are different paths.
Not a Bible problem but people twisting scripture making things up.
Have not ever seen it end well for people that blame God or live contrary to His Word.

Nope, no God ever said those things. They are things men wrote down.
Yes the Bible is clear Jesus is needed for salvation. All savior cults needed a savior figure to give followers salvation. Members of the Osirus cult needed Osirus for salvation.
It's still all fiction. Not real.

Have not ever seen it end well for people that blame God or live contrary to His Word.

Is that how it works? Weird that an Earthquake killed 40,000 churchgoers?

Lisbon earthquake of 1755, series of earthquakes that occurred on the morning of Nov. 1, 1755, causing serious damage to the port city of Lisbon, Port., and killing an estimated 60,000 people in Lisbon alone. Violent shaking demolished large public buildings and about 12,000 dwellings. Because November 1 is All Saints’ Day, a large part of the population was attending mass at the moment the earthquake struck; the churches, unable to withstand the seismic shock, collapsed, killing or injuring thousands of worshippers.


Many secular people live to be very old and have great lives. There are billions of Heretics in other religions who also do just fine.

Seems you just want to blame God instead of people. What happens for example is God says all sex outside of marriage is sexual immorality, pretty clear, even looking at someone with lust, or the only sex that God has said is appropriate is sex between a man and woman within the marriage covenant.
People don’t like this and then the justifications, rationalizations, twisting of Scripture.
Or Baptism, when and how. It’s clear in Scripture but then we have baby baptisms and sprinkling, not even biblical.
The Bible is clear that Jesus is the only way for salvation, then you actually have people claiming to be Christians saying there are different paths.
Not a Bible problem but people twisting scripture making things up.
Have not ever seen it end well for people that blame God or live contrary to His Word.

Nope, no God ever said those things. They are things men wrote down.
Yes the Bible is clear Jesus is needed for salvation. All savior cults needed a savior figure to give followers salvation. Members of the Osirus cult needed Osirus for salvation.
It's still all fiction. Not real.

Or Baptism, when and how. It’s clear in Scripture but then we have baby baptisms and sprinkling, not even biblical.

Baptism isn't originally biblical. It was taken from Greek religions.

 

[joelr]

God instituted the Feasts and I see Jesus Christ fulfilling those
Feast of Unleavened Bread - Jesus is sinless
First Fruits - Jesus First fruits from the dead
Passover - Jesus the Passover Lamb , His blood, Angel of death passes over, lamb of God takes away the sin of the World. No blood on your door, angel of death doesn’t pass over your home.
Pentecost- Birth of the Church, Holy Spirit poured out, big harvest.
Trumpets - Return of Christ at the last trumpet of God
Tabernacles - putting off our earthly tent putting on eternal glorified bodies, tabernacle with God in Heaven and permanent.
Atonement- Jesus provided eternal sacrifice Himself once and for all and at the Judgement a settling of accounts, rewards and punishment. I’m glad He paid for all my sins by His Blood at the Cross.
This is what I see in Scripture.
In Revelation I don’t see where confession, charity will do it to atone for your sin, a price had to be paid.

more atonement, or not?

Does the blood of animal sacrifices take away sin?
Yes
I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. Numbers 15:27-28

And one kid of the goats for a sin offering: to make an atonement for you. Numbers 29:5

No
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. Hebrews 10:11


"paying for your sins" is the Jewish version of the popular Greek savior demigod. Judaism was obsessed with getting rid of this magic "sin-force" from your body. Usually done by sacrifice. What else would a man-made religion do?
The OT claims your a sinner by original sin and then when saviors became popular they wrote some fiction about one who fixes your sin problem for good.

 

[joelr]

This story reminds me of some people and the conversations on here for some reason.

“Then a large crowd of the Jews learned he was there. They came not only because of Jesus but also to see Lazarus, the one he had raised from the dead. But the chief priests had decided to kill Lazarus also, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing in Jesus.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:9-11‬ ‭CSB‬‬

The story reminds you of yourself. You make claims and never can back them up or show evidence. When evidence is presented against your case you claim it's some sort of trick by the devil (2nd century apologetics) and can only post quotes from the Bible. Which is the same as saying "it's true because it says so".
Completely illogical. By all means demonstrate that someone else is wrong?

Yet again in this post you are posting John? The Gospel even Christian scholars admit is the least reliable?
Historical reliability
Jesus' teachings in the Synoptics greatly differ from those in the fourth gospel. Since the 19th century, scholars have almost unanimously accepted that the Johannine discourses are less likely to be historical than the synoptic parables, and were likely written for theological purposes.

Mainstream scholars conclude that the author did not also write the Gospel of John because of wide differences in eschatology, language, and tone.[33] The Book of Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities whereas the Gospel and Epistles are all stylistically consistent which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel/Epistles's author.[84] Contemporary scholars note that when Revelation and the Gospel refer to Jesus as "lamb" they use different Greek words, and they spell "Jerusalem" differently. There are differing motifs between the book and the Gospel: use of allegory, symbolism, and similar metaphors, such as "living water", "shepherd", "lamb", and "manna". The Book of Revelation does not go into several typically Johannine themes, such as light, darkness, truth, love, and "the world" in a negative sense. The eschatology of the two works are also very different.[85] Still, the author uses the terms "Word of God" and "Lamb of God" for Jesus Christ, possibly indicating that the author had a common theological background with the author of John.[33]

Another issue arguing against authorship by John the Apostle is that "the apostles" are occasionally mentioned within the work, yet the author never indicates that he is one. Revelation 4 describes a vision of twenty-four elders seated on twenty-four thrones, which is generally assumed to be a reference to Jesus's promise that the twelve disciples would be seated on thrones and judge the Twelve Tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:28–30). Yet, if the identification of the twenty-four elders as the disciples and the Patriarchs of the twelve tribes is accurate, the author does not mention seeing himself among the elders.[86]


Gospel of John - Wikipedia

 

[ElishaElijah]

Have you see this from Jon Stewart? : "Yom Kippur. Greatest Jewish holiday ever. The Jewish day of attonement. You don't ear for one day, all your sins for the year are wiped clean. Beat that with your little "Lent." What is Lent? Forty days of absolution. Forty days to one day. Even in sin you're paying retail."



When I was born again, I understood that the Holy Spirit interprets scripture: "no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God."



Feasts aren't fulfilled. Nor are doorways, nor radiators, nor ice cream cones. Promises, contracts, obligations, and orders are fulfilled. People can feel fulfilled. But not feasts. This is apologist verbal sleight-of-hand trying to justify dropping so much of the Old Testament, which they apparently couldn't sell to the Gentiles: the laws had been fulfilled. Same category error. You can't fulfill a law. You can write one, enforce one, judge one for constitutionality, etc., but you can't fulfill one, nor drink one, nor paint one orange.



So do you, hopefully. Your plight is even more dismal if this is not the way you want to live and feel good about it. But I guess that only goes for you. You need them to be like you. Good luck with that. Your witness is not appealing. Your religion may have saved you from yourself, but who else wants to follow that path when they already have control over their happy lives? What do you think you have to offer about sexual relations to grown adults who have healthy sexual lives that don't conform to your preferences, the people you describe in terms of immorality. What would somebody who gets their morality form a book have to say to those who have gotten it from their consciences?

For some reason, you feel qualified to judge and demean the moral status of decent people who do what they want to do such as raise families, obey the law, and make their communities better places. It is a very ugly trait to demean people like that for failing to obey your religious standards and demands. What respect do you suppose that they should hold for a religion that attempts to marginal and demonize its detractors? This is what I see Christians writing to the Freedom From Religion Foundation website:

• Whether you are afraid of burning in hell or not, You will, unless you repent and trust Jesus Christ to save you from it.. please do. You have every right to believe whatever you want, but shaking your fist at a sovereign God, is just plain stupid. Someday you WILL acknowledge and confess that JesusChrist is Lord!! Doing it from hell will be too late to save you. — Ivan

• Your organization is nothing but a hategroup against Christians. This is because you hate the God that created you. All of you in your organization have your own twisted reasons why you want to attack Christians but it boils down to rebellion against God. One day you all will stand before God and give an account for your lives. I pray that you will see the wrong in what you are doing. — Dwight

• Lucifer is on his throne laughing, Laughing!!! He has finally captured Lillith. She now lays at his clawed malformed hoofs. Collared and chained, Beautiful and Sexy,,, Hot,,,, Red hot!!! ready to make demons!! Powerful demons, that can strip the wings from angels and become,,, flying demons!!! And now!! the war, will continue!!! You will have plenty living human beings for the religious to conduct his animal selfishness for war upon the world. — Miller

Don’t know what you’re talking about or why you addressed your comment to me really. What God has done in my life has so far surpassed anything I could’ve hoped for or imagined for myself. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

Granted the bar I set was pretty low when I was living “ the dream”, doing what I want partying, drinking, drugs, sex. Let’s see what I’m missing out on: sexual disease, in and out of relationships every 3 months, bankrupt, guilty conscience, nights over the toilet, looking for more drugs at all hours of the night, smoking lint on the carpet, my head over the stove trying to get that last hit off the crack pipe, crashed cars, stealing, lying cheating. Oh the fun! My goal was a truck with a wave runner so I could go to the lake and ride that thing.
So to say morally superior is pretty funny, I was morally bankrupt and miserable and that’s why I called out to God, He is morally superior and saved me to the uttermost, gave me a life I thought was impossible. This was all His doing and yes I had to do and still do my part, but He did all the deliverance, miraculous healing and providing.

 

[Sheldon]

Don’t know what you’re talking about or why you addressed your comment to me really. What God has done in my life has so far surpassed anything I could’ve hoped for or imagined for myself. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

Granted the bar I set was pretty low when I was living “ the dream”, doing what I want partying, drinking, drugs, sex. Let’s see what I’m missing out on: sexual disease, in and out of relationships every 3 months, bankrupt, guilty conscience, nights over the toilet, looking for more drugs at all hours of the night, smoking lint on the carpet, my head over the stove trying to get that last hit off the crack pipe, crashed cars, stealing, lying cheating. Oh the fun! My goal was a truck with a wave runner so I could go to the lake and ride that thing.
So to say morally superior is pretty funny, I was morally bankrupt and miserable and that’s why I called out to God, He is morally superior and saved me to the uttermost, gave me a life I thought was impossible. This was all His doing and yes I had to do and still do my part, but He did all the deliverance, miraculous healing and providing.

None of this is evidence for any deity, just that you were becoming dissatisfied with your hedonistic lifestyle. Most people grow out of that kind of existence, it's natural that the things you enjoy when young lose their appeal. The rest is just guilt you seem to be carrying, and the belief seems to have helped you unload it, but again this doesn't validate the belief, and of course others manage this without any belief, or with belief in very different religions and deities.

 

[ElishaElijah]

None of this is evidence for any deity, just that you were becoming dissatisfied with your hedonistic lifestyle. Most people grow out of that kind of existence, it's natural that the things you enjoy when young lose their appeal. The rest is just guilt you seem to be carrying, and the belief seems to have helped you unload it, but again this doesn't validate the belief, and of course others manage this without any belief, or with belief in very different religions and deities.

Wasn’t talking to you but keep on keeping on. One day you may wake up. You must be too young yet, I was very fortunate not to waste my whole life.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Don’t know what you’re talking about or why you addressed your comment to me really.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, that's on you. It's plain English.

As for why I addressed the comment to you, it was because I was addressing comments you made, just like this one.

Granted the bar I set was pretty low when I was living “ the dream”, doing what I want partying, drinking, drugs, sex. Let’s see what I’m missing out on: sexual disease, in and out of relationships every 3 months, bankrupt, guilty conscience, nights over the toilet, looking for more drugs at all hours of the night, smoking lint on the carpet, my head over the stove trying to get that last hit off the crack pipe, crashed cars, stealing, lying cheating. Oh the fun! My goal was a truck with a wave runner so I could go to the lake and ride that thing.

It sounds like you needed religion. While you were out doing that, I was also partying, had multiple sexual partners before marriage, and got high. How did that turn out? No STDs, no unwanted pregnancies, I have never been addicted to anything but tobacco, and I managed to get into and through medical school and residency. I continued to live as I liked thereafter, still having multiple sexual partners and getting high, during which time I ran a medical practice.

I don't know why your life was so much worse with the same freedoms, but they weren't good for you. You weren't able to manage your life. You lacked self-discipline. Others can and do, and appreciate those freedoms. All of that was good for me, and made life richer. I'm sorry that you couldn't participate. Those are some of my fondest memories.

So to say morally superior is pretty funny, I was morally bankrupt and miserable and that’s why I called out to God

You have adopted an air of moral superiority here. Your disapproval of the moral choices of others here is palpable.

One day you may wake up. You must be too young yet, I was very fortunate not to waste my whole life.

It's really difficult to deal with these kinds of arrogant comments without insulting you. He needs to wake up? It's nice that you were able to salvage your life, but you seem to feel qualified to give life advice to others who are have always done better than what you describe both before and after your conversion. I see you as just hanging on to religion like a raft for fear of drowning without it. Is that what you mean by growing up and waking up? Maybe you should stop judging others and giving them unsolicited life advice, especially those who have never needed the kind of help you needed.

 

[Sheldon]

Wasn’t talking to you but keep on keeping on. One day you may wake up. You must be too young yet, I was very fortunate not to waste my whole life.

It must be St ad hominem day, as that seems to be all theists have this afternoon?

 

[Sheldon]

It's really difficult to deal with these kinds of arrogant comments without insulting you. He needs to wake up?

Indeed, though it beads up and rolls off after decades of listening to such arrogant ad hominem. He's also very wrong about my age ironically, though his posts are so often wrong about so much it's not a surprise.

I agree with your post, some people are just able to manage freedoms more successfully than others, who seem to need the emotional support of religion to help them.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It must be St ad hominem day, as that seems to be all theists have this afternoon?

Yikes another fallacious day in the hood

 

[ElishaElijah]

It sounds like you needed religion. While you were out doing that, I was also partying, had multiple sexual partners before marriage, and got high. How did that turn out? No STDs, no unwanted pregnancies, I have never been addicted to anything but tobacco, and I managed to get into and through medical school and residency. I continued to live as I liked thereafter, still having multiple sexual partners and getting high, during which time I ran a medical practice.

I don't know why your life was so much worse with the same freedoms, but they weren't good for you. You weren't able to manage your life. You lacked self-discipline. Others can and do, and appreciate those freedoms. All of that was good for me, and made life richer. I'm sorry that you couldn't participate. Those are some of my fondest memories.

Wow man you sound like Trump now, or should I say the media depiction of Trump.
But we shouldn’t go there anyway, I did participate to the max, it’s an empty life.
Congrats on your medical accomplishments though, well done!

 

[Sheldon]

None of this is evidence for any deity, just that you were becoming dissatisfied with your hedonistic lifestyle. Most people grow out of that kind of existence, it's natural that the things you enjoy when young lose their appeal. The rest is just guilt you seem to be carrying, and the belief seems to have helped you unload it, but again this doesn't validate the belief, and of course others manage this without any belief, or with belief in very different religions and deities.

Wasn’t talking to you but keep on keeping on. One day you may wake up. You must be too young yet, I was very fortunate not to waste my whole life.

It must be St ad hominem day, as that seems to be all theists have this afternoon?

Yikes another fallacious day in the hood

Well there is the exchange verbatim, it's pretty obvious you were the one who immediately resorted to an ad hominem fallacy. It seems you didn't like the flaws in your argument being explained, but then I seem to remember warning you that anyone who is very emotionally invested in a belief ought to be cautious about subjecting it to open critical scrutiny and debate. It's ironic that having ignored my warning, you are now lashing out with ad hominem when it happens.

Nonetheless even accepting your claim you profoundly changed your life based on a belief, does not in any way validate the belief, as plenty of people manage this without any belief, and others while citing the cause as very different religious beliefs and deities to the one you believe in. Resorting to petty insult merely suggests you have no cogent response, or credible argument to answer those facts.

 

[Sheldon]

Wow man you sound like Trump now, or should I say the media depiction of Trump.
But we shouldn’t go there anyway, I did participate to the max, it’s an empty life.

Another ad hominem response, and no he didn't sound remotely like Trump. On the contrary he offered a very cogent well reasoned argument, which you have ignored for yet another one line ad hominem response.

His post made a lot of sense, it's a shame you simply dismissed it with fallacious hand waving.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Another ad hominem response, and no he didn't sound remotely like Trump. On the contrary he offered a very cogent well reasoned argument, which you have ignored for yet another one line ad hominem response.

His post made a lot of sense, it's a shame you simply dismissed it with fallacious hand waving.

Of course it makes sense, he’s happy living an immoral life with no consequences and successful in that so why would you ever think bad of Trump’s previous sexual conduct ? And it’s ad hominem? Was the ad hominem in the congrats?

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Another ad hominem response, and no he didn't sound remotely like Trump. On the contrary he offered a very cogent well reasoned argument, which you have ignored for yet another one line ad hominem response.

His post made a lot of sense, it's a shame you simply dismissed it with fallacious hand waving.

Of course it makes sense,

Apparently not as you ignored it, and responded with petty ad hominem, as of course you did to mine.

he’s happy living an immoral life with no consequences and successful in

Nope, you clearly didn't understand it at all.

that so why would you ever think bad of Trump’s previous sexual conduct ?

Well firstly you mentioned Turmp, not me, secondly you'd need to be specific, as some of his sexual conduct I would consider to be immoral and some not. For instance having multiple partners out of wedlock is not something I'd necessarily consider immoral, as long it is consensual and no one is being lied to or coerced.

And it’s ad hominem? Was the ad hominem in the congrats?

You didn't address the specific of his post, just insulted him personally with a generic and clearly pejorative comparison. As you did me, hence ad hominem.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well firstly you mentioned Turmp, not me, secondly you'd need to be specific, as some of his sexual conduct I would consider to be immoral and some not. For instance having multiple partners out of wedlock is not something I'd necessarily consider immoral, as long it is consensual and no one is being lied to or coerced.

Who says what’s immoral or moral? You? People had a problem with Trump yet live the same way and they condemn the guy, did you too?
It’s funny to me how any guy could say anything bad about Trump talking bad about women when in private among guys we trash talk and tell of our exploits, I did stop doing that many years ago because it is disgusting but to be part of that and pretend we weren’t and in front of women pretend we are so wonderful, caring, men when all we wanted was sex. Give me a break bro

 

[Sheldon]

Who says what’s immoral or moral? You?

Morality is subjective, so yes I have the right to an opinion, same as you.

People had a problem with Trump yet live the same way and they condemn the guy, did you too?

I don't have enough information, you insulted @It Aint Necessarily So with a pejorative comparison, but offered no specifics, and now you're doing it again. What specifically are claiming about his behaviour is deserving of moral condemnation, and why? making a generic and pejorative comparison to Trump is simple ad hominem.

It’s funny to me how any guy could say anything bad about Trump talking bad about women when in private among guys we trash talk and tell of our exploits,

What has this to do with me?

I did stop doing that many years ago because it is disgusting but to be part of that and pretend we weren’t and in front of women pretend we are so wonderful, caring, men when all we wanted was sex. Give me a break bro

Why am I giving you a break? those were your mistakes not mine. You seem to be projecting now, since in the context of this exchange no one else has claimed to do this either, it seems you simply assumed others behave as you used to, just because they don't share your beliefs, again that's pretty arrogant, and speaks volumes. Plenty of atheists live good lives.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What has this to do with me?

You’re defending sexual immorality that Trump got slammed for, so did you also participate in the same trash talk among guys? I don’t know any guys in college or after that didn’t except for the Christian guys that we looked down on and made fun of who were “missing out”.
Yet they ended up with great families and successful, while I was in rehab, then I went back and worked for one and paid him back for money I owed him.

 

[Sheldon]

You’re defending sexual immorality that Trump got slammed for,

Have I, where?

Yet they ended up with great families and successful, while I was in rehab, then I went back and worked for one and paid him back for money I owed him.

As @It Aint Necessarily So explained, a promiscuous existence in your young life need not be mutually exclusive with settling down later and having a family, but it is a personal choice.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Have I, where?



As @It Aint Necessarily So explained, a promiscuous existence in your young life need not be mutually exclusive with settling down later and having a family, but it is a personal choice.

Yeah the bragging about how he lived and still does and when Trumps same type behavior was condemned and guys join in like they didn’t act the same way. You too bro, huh? Did you join in? You talk the same way around your buddies and then deny it and slam Trump in front of the ladies?