For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem?

[dybmh]

The Malbim didn't write in English. In English the definition of emotions is connected physiological realities that exist here on our physical world. The (רגש) in pre-modern Hebrew is not the same as "emotions" in modern English.

That's your own personal preference/ debate tactic, attempting to shut down opposition without engaging the issue. When Moshe describes HaShem's love, it is easy to understand in english. The vast majority of parents can understand, and vast majority of children can understand. The language is completely irrelevant. Haven't you heard the expression, love is the universal language? It's true!

 

[dybmh]

Exactly, so like I said. You can't equate what the English word "emotions" even to what they wrote. It doesn't equate based on the definitons of the words in two seperate languages.

Love is love in any language. English does just fine with this. The desire to require require Hebrew for discussing spiritual matters is your own personal issue. Here let me show you:

According to the Malbim and others, human emotions are part of the soul, they are not part of the body. The soul is a literal part of HaShem that was passed to us in creation. When we love HaShem, HaShem responds with the same kind of love. This is because HaShem is connected to his creation and desires to have a relationship with us here in the material world.

And this confirms what I said from the beginning, if I have something ( Love, joy, anger, anything ), saying HaShem cannot have it is heresy. This is because everything comes from HaShem, everything is connected to HaShem. And when it comes to emotions they are literally a part of HaShem.

Easy-peasey and in english.

They did not write in English. They are talking about (רגש) and in the Hebrew they are talking about does not mean what "emotions" means in English as I showed earlier. These are two seperate langauges with two seperate reasonings of what the words mean. As I showed earlier. Besides neither one of them stated
(יש להש רגש כמו בן אדם)

Yes, yes, Bartenura says יש להש רגש כמו בן אדם. I posted it already: נפשכם שהיא חלק אלוה ממעל שמצדה יאהב דומה לדומה

"Domeh, l'domeh" = "C'moh ben adam" That is literally what it means. Why? because Naphsh'em sh'hi hailek elokai.

In english: HaShem loves "likeness-to-likeness" it is similar to human love "like-for-like" because the soul is a part of HaShem. We share emotive "soul powers" with HaShem in a diminished manner. But it's still like-for-like. It's still congruent.

Besides, you forgot to highlight the entire area relevant to what the Baal Shem Tove wrote.

הגוף אינו בעל הרגשה מצד עצמו

Because as he stated:

והחיות הוא חלק אלהות, כי הנשמה חלק אלוה ממעל

I know, that's because these are the same words that I highlighted when I quoted Malbim. They don't disagree with that I'm saying, they support it.

The important part of the Baal Shem Tov quote is the part in blue, in the quote above. The part I originally highlighted. "The body is not the master of the emotion."

 

[David Davidovich]

@David Davidovich ,

As usual you are asking the right questions, and yes, taken to it's logical conclusion all of the issues you raised are valid.

Sorry about the late response, @dybmh, and thank you.

I would like to 2nd @Rachel Rugelach , the notion that God has no emotions is not really Torath Mosheh. Arguably it's the opposite of Torath Mosheh. It's Rambam, who, in spite of his brillance has critics for good reason. And this idea of no-emotions is not ancient.

When it comes to who is HaShem if one is an adherent to Rambam's philosophy, the answer is, HaShem is a force. And our actions, do not effect a change in HaShem, they effect a change in us. And this change illicits a response because of something akin to natural laws. Cause and effect, cold, unfeeling, and amoral.

This chapter of Rambam's later work may help explain the POV. Also the following chapter.

Guide for the Perplexed: Part I: Chapter LVI

So, if HaShem is imagined this way, the reason for following the law is simply self-preservation, self-interest, and interest in a better world. HaShem created everything and following the rules is like wearing a jacket in the cold and encouraging others to do the same.

I personally do not agree with Rambam's conclusion. He is essentially trading one heresy for another. I can elaborate if there's interest.

Well, I do find that really interesting. However, one thing that I've wondered about for a while is that how exactly is Rambam considered a source of absolute Jewish truth to some, even though he wasn't born until the 12th century C.E.?

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, I have been wanting to mention that OTHERS MAY PARTICIPATE IN THIS THREAD WHO HAVE QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS WHO ARE NOT TORATH MOSHEH JEW OR ORTHODOX JEWS, EVEN THOUGH I AM MAINLY LOOKING FOR THE POINT OF VIEW FROM TORATH MOSHEH JEW OR ORTHODOX JEWS.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

But anyway, from what I understand from Torath Mosheh Jews is that they don't believe that Hashem has any emotions or feelings. Therefore, I ask them the questions: Who is Hashem?

The most simple answer in English would be that Hashem is the Source of all forms of reality. Hashem was not created and is not subject to something else. There are is a tendancy to talk about Hashem in negatives, meaning is not this or that, etc. The reason is because Hashem beyond human reasoning. Yet, the Torah is the path with Jews can reason with Hashem.

Reason about Hashem or reason with Hashem?

David Davidovich said: ↑

What are his motives?

If you mean, towards humanity. There is a common thread in Torath Mosheh texts that points the idea that Hashem created a reality for humans to exist in it, to give the Torah to the Israeli/Jewish people, and to provide the ability for reality to benefit humanity.

But isn't the Torah the result of Adam and Eve and their descendants developing the yetzer hara? And if so, what were Hashem's original motives?

David Davidovich said: ↑

What does humankind mean to him?

Humanity means a species that has the ability to have free will and the ability to use the elements of logic that Hashem placed in humanity.

That sounds so vague and insipid.

David Davidovich said: ↑
Why did he even create humans?

Same as the above answer, and for the possibility for the Torah to be kept by a segment of humanity.

So, Hashem had always planned for humankind to develop yetzer hara and for humanity to have pain, suffering, selfishness, hate, murder, crime, sickness and disease, etc.?

David Davidovich said: ↑

Why did he even create anything?

Simple answer. Because Hashem chose to. There is no more complex answer. Hashem didn't have to but he did. Essentially, a combination of the above answers can cover a number of sources.

Thank you for your answer, but if I am being honest with you, I have always despised the 'because he chose to' answer. Also, Christians may have copied this answer from Jews, but I've always hated when Christians resorted to that answer... Just being honest.

David Davidovich said: ↑

What's in it for him?

Rav Saadya Gaon and Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon (also known as the Rambam) posited that Hashem doesn't operate in that way. I.e. the concept of a benefit doesn't exist when dealing wiht something that a) is the source, b) created out a choice to do so, and c) doesn't rely on or need its creations.

That almost sounds like Hashem is more like a cold machine... Something that humans can't really relate to.

David Davidovich said: ↑

Why does the Hebrew text say that he's patience and forgiving and that he cares about humankind when apparently, he doesn't, since he doesn't have any emotions?

In the Mishnah it is discussed that the Torah was written in the language of humanity. Meaning that the Torah is for the Israeli/Jewish people to deal with the reality Hashem created. The Torah could be written in some high level metaphysical way where only a small amount of Jews would ever understand it or it can be written the way that humans/Jews actually talk. This is one of the reasons that an Oral Torah was given. I.e. to help with digging into the details.

The Rambam, for example, equated the concept of emotions in the text to what we as humans experience from the reality Hashem created. For example, Hashem provides a planet, resources, and the ability to be protected, etc. and a response is that a human feels love. Hashem protected the Jewish people from our enemies and we say that Hashem protects us. Hashem gives us the ability to escape our enemies and overpower them when they want to destroy the Jewish people and we say that Hashem is giving us mercy. Hashem gives the Jewish people the ability to make mistakes and come back from the those mistakes w/o abandoning us completely and we can say that Hashem is being patient and forgiving.

Thus, the terms of emotions are what we as humans experience and it what we perceive as changes in the nature of Hashem. Yet, there is a part of the Tanakh that states that Hashem doesn't change.

So, what is Hashem actually doing then? Because once again, it almost seems like he is functioning more like a ginormous computer or intelligence.

David Davidovich said: ↑

Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.

The answer to this is listed above, but I will state it like this. Because Hashem gave the Torah to the our ancestors at Mount Sinai by bringing them out of Egypt and gave us the abiliy to be in the land of Israel and because Hashem has, even in exile, kept the Jewish people in existance we say that because of all that we, as humans, perceive that as love. We also recognize that Hashem is beyond our perception, YET even with that being the case we can feel these emotions and using the langauge of humans apply that to Hashem ourselves.

So, it's almost as if the Torath Moshe Jews/Orthodox Jews are technically functioning on a level of... well, to say it nicely, on a level of 'untruth' when it comes to their relationship and interactions with Hashem.

 

[dybmh]

Sorry about the late response, @dybmh, and thank you.

You're very welcome.

Well, I do find that really interesting. However, one thing that I've wondered about for a while is that how exactly is Rambam considered a source of absolute Jewish truth to some, even though he wasn't born until the 12th century C.E.?

It has to do with the history of the Jews in Yemen. During a very dark time, Rambam became involved via corresponence with the community there. He accurately predicted that if they remained committed to Jewish law and practice the dark times would pass. He also correctly rebuked those who looked to the stars for guidance, those who calculated the date when Moshiach would arrive, while at the same time encouraging the Yemenite community. In a lot ways, and according to Rambam's own definitions, this describes Rambam himself as a prophet. If you look into Yemenite Jews, you'll see that the religious adherence to Rambam as absolute unquestionable truth was essentially focused exclusively on this geographic area. This group has now immigrated to Israel. You can read more about it below.

On the wikipedia page scroll down to religious groups, look for Rambamists. But in both articles you'll see a lot that matches what is being labeled as "Torah Mosheh". Including the reluctance to accurately identify themself in the same way others avoid their identity and claim to be the single source for religious truth. Including some pictures which are in the video posted on "Torath Mosheh".

Yemenite Jews - Wikipedia
Maimonides and the Jews of Yemen - Hand in Hand for Eight Centuries

Big picture, it's not uncommon in Judaism for a modern religious leader to be deemed a source for religious truth. The idea comes from the oral-torah concept. There is great diverstiy in opinion on what is the "oral-torah". Some (many?) believe that there are secrets passed from God to Moses which are not intended for the masses for various reasons. Instead these secrets are transmitted from teacher to student orally in an unbroken chain of tradition. At certain points in Jewish history there may be a need to reveal these secrets. This results in a modern teacher claiming to possess arcane knowledge which has not been previously made available. And this is not difficult for a Jewish person to believe, if they believe in an "oral-torah".

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

Well, I do find that really interesting. However, one thing that I've wondered about for a while is that how exactly is Rambam considered a source of absolute Jewish truth to some, even though he wasn't born until the 12th century C.E.?

It has to do with the history of the Jews in Yemen. During a very dark time, Rambam became involved via corresponence with the community there. He accurately predicted that if they remained committed to Jewish law and practice the dark times would pass. He also correctly rebuked those who looked to the stars for guidance, those who calculated the date when Moshiach would arrive, while at the same time encouraging the Yemenite community. In a lot ways, and according to Rambam's own definitions, this describes Rambam himself as a prophet. If you look into Yemenite Jews, you'll see that the religious adherence to Rambam as absolute unquestionable truth was essentially focused exclusively on this geographic area. This group has now immigrated to Israel. You can read more about it below.

On the wikipedia page scroll down to religious groups, look for Rambamists. But in both articles you'll see a lot that matches what is being labeled as "Torah Mosheh". Including the reluctance to accurately identify themself in the same way others avoid their identity and claim to be the single source for religious truth. Including some pictures which are in the video posted on "Torath Mosheh".

Yemenite Jews - Wikipedia
Maimonides and the Jews of Yemen - Hand in Hand for Eight Centuries

Well, that's really interesting because I've seen some Christian groups who have been similar as far as being reluctant to identify themselves in the same way as other Christians groups by changing the name of their meeting places, etc., and by also claiming to be the single source of religious truth. Also, because I've had experience with such Christian groups, I always feel obligated to more closely examine and to more closely scrutinize any group making such a claim.

Big picture, it's not uncommon in Judaism for a modern religious leader to be deemed a source for religious truth. The idea comes from the oral-torah concept. There is great diverstiy in opinion on what is the "oral-torah". Some (many?) believe that there are secrets passed from God to Moses which are not intended for the masses for various reasons. Instead these secrets are transmitted from teacher to student orally in an unbroken chain of tradition. At certain points in Jewish history there may be a need to reveal these secrets. This results in a modern teacher claiming to possess arcane knowledge which has not been previously made available. And this is not difficult for a Jewish person to believe, if they believe in an "oral-torah".

Interesting. Also, it sounds like a lot to swallow for a person on the outside looking in... and even for some people who are on the inside.

 

[David Davidovich]

"For He is above all defect!" Since God is perfect, Hshem does not have human emotions. According to Rambam, Hashem does not become angry. When the Bible says that Hashem becomes angry this is there to prompt people to act properly. The Rambam continues:

You, no doubt, know the Talmudical saying, which includes in itself all the various kinds of interpretation connected with our subject. It runs thus: “The Torah speaks according to the language of man,” that is to say, expressions, which can easily be comprehended and understood by all, are applied to the Creator. Hence the description of G-d by attributes implying corporeality, in order to express His existence: because the multitude of people do not easily conceive existence unless in connection with a body, and that which is not a body nor connected with a body has for them no existence. (Guide for the Perplexed 1.26; Friedlander translation, p. 111)[1]​

But that sounds more like it's conflating the concept of existence with a physical human body. However, I thought that Exodus chapter 33 and 34 already made it clear that Hashem or G-D did exist but was not corporeal nor had a physical human body.

 

[David Davidovich]

In regard to emotions, it seems like the following are being overlooked?

וְיָֽדַעְתָּ הַיּוֹם וַֽהֲשֵֽׁבֹתָ אֶל־לְבָבֶךָ כִּי יְהֹוָה הוּא הָֽאֱלֹהִים בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל וְעַל־הָאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת אֵין עֽוֹד׃

"אֵין עֽוֹד"!

and

יְהֹוָה אֵל עֶלְיוֹן קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ׃

"קֹנֵה שָׁמַיִם וָאָֽרֶץ"

Therefore, anything that exists here, is possessed by HaShem? There is nothing else?

Not fair, dybmh. Let the rest of us in on the conversation.

 

[David Davidovich]

Those pasukim don't state that Hashem has the attributes of a human and they don't state Hashem has emotions, that can be equated to what humans call emotions. They state what I have been saying that Hashem is the source of reality. I.e. Hashem created everything and is the source of how everthing is established.

They don't state that Hashem has human emotions. For example, does Hashem get depressed or lonely? Does Hashem have uncontrolled rage? Further, does Hashem lose track of time and worse yet does Hashem do aveiroth?

I didn't understand any of the Hebrew in your other posts, but based on what you said above, I find it a bit sad that Hashem has to use fear, rage, and emotion concepts in order for the Jews to understand him and to believe in him.

 

[dybmh]

Not fair, dybmh. Let the rest of us in on the conversation.

No problem-o. For my next trick, I'll dissappear. { poof }

 

[David Davidovich]

Good. It has been confirmed, and hopefully the OP is taking note, Torath Mosheh cannot describe HaShem lacking anything. That is heretical.

Yes, I am reading and making a mental note of what has been posted. [/QUOTE]

 

[David Davidovich]

No problem-o. For my next trick, I'll dissappear. { poof }

Meaning that I didn't understand what you said in Hebrew.

 

[dybmh]

Meaning that I didn't understand what you said in Hebrew.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were saying that to someone else.

 

[David Davidovich]

why stop there? The next verse is important, isn't it?

למימי אבתיכם סרתם מחקי ולא שמרתם שובו אלי ואשובה אליכם אמר יהוה צבאות ואמרתם במה נשוב׃

Return to me, and I will return to you...

And if a person keeps reading regardless of whether it is literal or not, isn't the message that the prophet is bringing the exact opposite of "HaShem is not effected by human actions"?

I think that is a good question. And perhaps I've been misunderstanding what @Ehav4Ever has been saying about Hashem, but his description sounds more as if Hashem's behavior toward humankind is perfunctory. And kind of like I had said previously about being more like a ginormous Artificial Intelligence, but not artificial.

 

[David Davidovich]

Oh, sorry, I thought you were saying that to someone else.

No, I just wanted you to translate what you said in the one post. However, after I read that post, I had read where @Ehav4Ever used mainly Hebrew in some of his posts. Therefore, I decided to just continue to read what I could read in English in this thread and not worry about the posts Hebrew.

 

[dybmh]

No, I just wanted you to translate what you said in the one post. However, after I read that post, I had read where @Ehav4Ever used mainly Hebrew in some of his posts. Therefore, I decided to just continue to read what I could read in English in this thread and not worry about the posts Hebrew.

Ok, If there's something you want me to answer let me know. Clearly this is something I'm passionate about, but, there's nothing wrong with asking me to settle and step back as you did. Or at least, that's how I understood it.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

Also, why do Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews even care, and what are their motives and how do they feel about Hashem? Especially, since they don't believe that Hashem loves them or has any feelings for them.

to try and describe Hashem is to fail in the attempt. The Jewish idea of God defies human comprehension so any attempt to attempt has already fallen short. Sadly, all we have are our human brains and language. But the finite cannot capture the infinite. We impose words figures of speech and human laws and logic and some are mistaken into believing that our intellectual containers, as they come up empty, must be making insightful and accurate observations and conclusions.

The Ein Sof isn't infinite. He is infinity, itself. Trying to quantify and work with the concept simply won't work.

God (Hashem) is infinite and infinity in all directions and dimensions. The linguistic loops people try to impose, and the expressions of human thinking that we rely on to make sense of our world won't work. Even Jewish mysticism is really just a way to approach our inability to understand, not to provide understanding.

So then does that mean that Jews just do what they are told by what they believe is this 'thing' that is supposed to be the Source of Reality and that's basically it? Or in other words, it's just kind of like blind obedience or they are just following cultural tradition?

 

[David Davidovich]

And I'll leave you with this, confirmation of HaShem's love, directly from Mosheh who hopefully over-rules Bilaam in your philosophy. HaShem didn't listen to Bilaam, that should mean something.

וְלֹֽא־אָבָה יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לִשְׁמֹעַֽ אֶל־בִּלְעָם וַיַּֽהֲפֹךְ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לְּךָ אֶת־הַקְּלָלָה לִבְרָכָה כִּי אֲהֵֽבְךָ יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶֽיךָ׃

Nevertheless HaShem Elokecha would not listen to Bilaam; but HaShem Elokecha turned the curse into a blessing to you, because HaShem Elokecha loved you.​

Yeah, I had thought that perhaps "love" was the greatest force in the universe (second to a creator or the Source of Creation of course). However, if seems as if @Ehav4Ever and Torath Mosheh Jews perceive that as a foreign or perhaps Avodah Zara concept.

 

[David Davidovich]

In order to understand teh difficult you may with this let's deal with the two words you mention. Emotions and Feelings. First problem we have is that the Tanakh was not written in English. So, since the Tanakh is the source text one would have to see what words in Ancient Hebrew are used to define "emotions" and "feelings" and in what context they are used. One may also find that the English definition of "emotions" and "feelings" are not equivalent in ancient Hebrew - especially in relation to Hashem.

Here is an example of what I mean. In English Emotions are defined as:

View attachment 71917
View attachment 71916

This then brings up the questions of:

1. Where in the Torah is Hashem described to have "physiological experience with behavioral expression of feelings in response to any sensory information. The behavioral changes include musculoskeletal, autonomic, and endocrine responses"?
2. Where in the Torah is Hashem described to have "mental states brought on by neurophysiological changes, variously associated with thoughts, feelings, behavioral responses, and a degree of pleasure or displeasure"?
3. If one had to describe, in ancient Hebrew, the above English definitions how would one write it out?
4. Where do the rabbis who wrote commentaries of the Torah, in their own words in Hebrew/Aramaic, ever describe Hashem exactly in the way the English defintion does?

In terms of feelings,

View attachment 71919
View attachment 71918

Thus, you see that scientifically feelings are considered to be connected to bodily or physical sensations and the definitions even in English are debated.

That being said, one can't apply Human and English terms to something that is not human and to something that is beyond human understanding.

See the following video that does a good job of addressing this from both angles. i.e. Angle 1 - Hashem is beyond human experience/understanding and can't be defined by such and b) if one wants to say Hashem has emotions they are way beyond what humans know/define/experience as emotions. Both positions lead back to the same path Hashem beyond human experience.

The full video can be viewed at the below link.

https://www.alephbeta.org/playlist/gods-name-ehyeh-asher-ehyeh-meaning

That was a really good post and I really liked the information in it... However, the question that I'm about to ask is similar to the one that I asked in the Science and Religion thread, which I haven't had the time to look at yet, however, I did not include Job 38:7 with that question. But in context, I would like to ask about Job 38:4-7:

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 On what were its bases sunk,
or who laid its cornerstone
7 when the morning stars sang together
and all the heavenly beings shouted for joy?

And I know that the Jewish belief is that the word malach, which is translated as "angel" in English Bibles is referring to non-intelligent, non-sentient creatures that are extensions of Hashem and who are not really individual beings. However, if that is true, are verses such as the above ones and others in the Hebrew text which describe myriads upon myriads of malach surrounding and praising Hashem, a form of self adulation?