WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT IS ABOLISHED?

[metis]

Yes and we are to live by everyone of them (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16)

That's not what I was referring to.

 

[jimb]

The same way anyone can study and understand any religion they don’t believe in.

The Pharisees claimed to understand what Jesus was saying to them, but clearly they didn't. You can study Christianity as much as you want, but that does not mean that you understand it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

really? You don't know? ok, have a good day...and take care ...

No, it was not clear. Thus, I gave you a chance to clarify. But you seem to want to move on, which is fine.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So then what others say can also be poetical, etc. No discussion in essence. Thanks again. And about God not getting tired, that also is mythical, right?

Some things are figurative and others aren't. A person with good reading comprehension can usually tell the difference. For example, if the psalmist says "the rivers clap their hands," I assume you would know that it is figurative poetic langauge. On the other hand, "Thou shalt not steal" would not be figurative, correct?

God not getting tired is a statement about the nature of God. I'm being literal, not figurative. Getting tired and needing rest is something that happens to corporeal life forms, which God is not.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some things are figurative and others aren't. A person with good reading comprehension can usually tell the difference. For example, if the psalmist says "the rivers clap their hands," I assume you would know that it is figurative poetic langauge. On the other hand, "Thou shalt not steal" would not be figurative, correct?

God not getting tired is a statement about the nature of God. I'm being literal, not figurative. Getting tired and needing rest is something that happens to corporeal life forms, which God is not.

Well, I hate to go into this, but for the sake of decency perhaps I will. Since you do not believe the account of creation as written in the Bible, you also must think that the account of Adam and Eve is a myth, too. And as I recall, you also believe the account in the wilderness with Moses and the Israelites is also mythical.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, it was not clear. Thus, I gave you a chance to clarify. But you seem to want to move on, which is fine.

There is no going on in certain cases. The idea of religion almost becomes a joke when one insists the account from Adam to Moses and beyond is mythical. You're right -- nothing further to say.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some things are figurative and others aren't. A person with good reading comprehension can usually tell the difference. For example, if the psalmist says "the rivers clap their hands," I assume you would know that it is figurative poetic langauge. On the other hand, "Thou shalt not steal" would not be figurative, correct?

God not getting tired is a statement about the nature of God. I'm being literal, not figurative. Getting tired and needing rest is something that happens to corporeal life forms, which God is not.

To be fair, do you really believe Moses received those commandments in the wilderness? C'mon, be truthful. Do you believe that Saul was the first king of Israel and David was his successor?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well, I hate to go into this, but for the sake of decency perhaps I will. Since you do not believe the account of creation as written in the Bible, you also must think that the account of Adam and Eve is a myth, too.

That is correct. There was never a first man and first woman. Homo sapiens evolved as a population.

And as I recall, you also believe the account in the wilderness with Moses and the Israelites is also mythical.

This I would put into the category of legend, meaning that I believe there is a historical basis, but the history has been glossed over by added years of oral editing and embellishing. Remember that it is an Bronze Age story, but not recorded until the Iron Age. There does not seem to be any archeological evidence to support either a Hebrew slavery in Egypt, the existence of Moses, or the Exodus from Egypt. Obviously someone needed to originate Hebrew law, and I refer to that person as Moses. But how it happened exactly, I do not think we can know. Nor do I think it matters. The story of the Exodus tells me who I am as a Jew. It does not need to be historical to do that.

Good source on this matter is this one, by a Jewish historian, "The Historical origin of the 12 tribes of Israel." I realize 30 minutes is a bit long to ask of you, so if you decline I understand. But I think this one is really well worth the time investment:

 

[IndigoChild5559]

To be fair, do you really believe Moses received those commandments in the wilderness? C'mon, be truthful. Do you believe that Saul was the first king of Israel and David was his successor?

The jury is still out.

 

[YoursTrue]

The jury is still out.

I see. I say no more and leave it in the hands of God, of course that is an expression like the finger of God. I leave you to Him. Nice meeting you. I might say something to you from time to time, but it's been educational meeting you, so to speak, on the internet. Take care.

 

[Tomef]

The Pharisees claimed to understand what Jesus was saying to them, but clearly they didn't. You can study Christianity as much as you want, but that does not mean that you understand it.

I think I understand it a lot better than many people who claim to follow the teachings of the bible. Case in point, this whole thread is rooted in a misunderstanding of one of Christianity's most basic founding themes. The way those kinds of misunderstandings metastasise into so many diverse sects and sub-sects shows pretty clearly how little Christians can claim to know their own teachings.

I can’t understand your personal experience of having a religious faith, but neither can I understand exactly what it is like for you to eat ice cream or watch the sun set. Religion doesn’t exist in some special category that makes it different from other aspects of human experience; that is just another part of the belief system, not an objective reality.

 

[3rdAngel]

Show me anything in the NT that supports your notion of an interest in keeping one particular day as sacred. The idea is antithetical to New Testament teaching, as is circumcision and all the rest of it. There is simply no basis for this insistence on marking one arbitrary period of time as special.

It is not my notion of anything. You were posted 29+ scripture teachings relating to the new testament scriptures that teach us how to keep the Sabbath from the very words of Jesus and the Apostles who all kept the Sabbath of Gods 10 commandments. According to these same new testament scriptures the very definition of sin is breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments of which Gods Sabbath commandment is a part of as shown James in James 2:10-11 compare 1 John 3:4 (Exodus 20:3-17 see Exodus 20:4-11). Your mistake besides your unbelief in the scriptures and God is that you mix up the shadow laws fulfilled in Christ with Gods eternal laws of good and evil; sin and right doing. You do not know the scriptures or God who gave them to us.

 

[3rdAngel]

Oh, here's another thing - you are making a common mistake when you confuse faith with scripture. They are two totally different things.

You cannot have faith without Gods Word see Romans 10:17

 

[3rdAngel]

What I asked you, several times, as you know, is to reference a scripture in the NT that clearly states the sabbath should be held on a particular day. You have continued to avoid that question - so, where is the scripture that tells Christians the must respect the Sabbath by having one particular day of the week as a kind of holy day, which, according to the OT, would mean doing no work at all (like preaching, church activities etc)?

Your being dishonest now. This is what you posted here, so let me quote you.

Tomef said: Show me anything in the NT that supports your notion of an interest in keeping one particular day as sacred. The idea is antithetical to New Testament teaching, as is circumcision and all the rest of it. There is simply no basis for this insistence on marking one arbitrary period of time as special.

To which I responded with....Why will you now believe..... there is too many scriptures. Everyone of Gods 10 commandments are reiterated in the new covenant as the standard for Christian living including Gods Sabbath commandment.1. Jesus says God made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)2. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day (Mark 2:28)3. Jesus taught it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath and God desires mercy not sacrifice (Matthew 12:1-12)4. Jesus says in the last days before the second coming Gods people will still be continuing to keep the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20)5. We are warned in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 that no one enters into Gods Sabbath rest if we do not believe and obey what Gods Word says (Hebrews 4:1-5; 9)6 Hebrews 4:9 Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.7. Jesus and all the apostles and disciples continued keeping the Sabbath even after the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Matthew 28:1)Hey we have not even gone through the scriptures relating to Gods 10 commandments in the new covenant. There is plenty more scriptures. Let me know if you need some more. James says that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them in James 2:10-11 and John says in 1 John 3:4 that is we break Gods law it is sin in Gods eyes. Then I continued to help you here..

Why will you now believe..... there is too many scriptures. Everyone of Gods 10 commandments are reiterated in the new covenant as the standard for Christian living including Gods Sabbath commandment.

1. Jesus says God made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
2. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day (Mark 2:28)
3. Jesus taught it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath and God desires mercy not sacrifice (Matthew 12:1-12)
4. Jesus says in the last days before the second coming Gods people will still be continuing to keep the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20)
5. We are warned in Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 that no one enters into Gods Sabbath rest if we do not believe and obey what Gods Word says (Hebrews 4:1-5; 9)
6 Hebrews 4:9 Therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.
7. Jesus and all the apostles and disciples continued keeping the Sabbath even after the death and resurrection of Jesus (see Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Matthew 28:1)

Hey we have not even gone through the scriptures relating to Gods 10 commandments in the new covenant. There is plenty more scriptures. Let me know if you need some more. James says that if we break anyone of Gods 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them in James 2:10-11 and John says in 1 John 3:4 that is we break Gods law it is sin in Gods eyes.

Your response here...

You’re going to tell me you can’t see they none of those verses mentions a particular day? The chapter you quoted earlier , Hebrews 4, makes it clear that a particular day isn’t meant. Somehow you can’t see that either. Power of dogma in action.

Well the above quotes by you only embarrassed yourself as everyone of those scriptures mentioned the Sabbath. To which I responded here...

Goodness you did not read a single scripture reference now did you. All of them mention the Sabbath. If you did read what you were quoting from you would not have embarrassed yourself here with this post. Lets talk Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 happy to also discuss the contexts and scripture detail you are also regarding here. Let me know if you are interested?

Now you are pretending here you are saying the same thing as you posted above.

Again: Which NT passage tells Christians they must treat every Saturday as a sabbath day?

Now you are asking something different and showing you do not understand the scriptures of the Hebrew old testament scriptures and the Greek new testament scriptures. If you did you would know that the naming and the starting of the days in the Hebrew culture do not use Sunday to Saturday nomenclature. So you are asking something that does not exist. You have already been provided 29+ scriptures the first time I answered your question with you claiming none of them mentioning the Sabbath to your embarrassment only showing you did not even read what was posted to you. Now friend. All a Christian are are people that believe and obey what Gods Word says. This is also Gods true Israel and gentile believers are grafted in with Jewish believers and we are all not one in Christ. This is why it is written in Hebrews 4:9 Therefore it remains fore the people of God to keep the Sabbath. Cant get any clearer than that friend.

And: Where in the NT is this treated as a salvation issue?

According to the scriptures sin is defined as the breaking of anyone of Gods 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 and 1 John 3:4 and not believing and obeying what Gods Word says in Romans 14:23 and John 3:36. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 if we continue in known unrepentant sin after God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Words there remains no more sacrifice for sins but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come. You see friend SIN is a salvation issue according to the scriptures. If you choose a life of not believing and obeying what Gods Word says you will be lost (see also Matthew 7:21-23; John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-4; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14). Yep seems like continuing in known unrepentant sin breaking anyone of Gods 10 commandments is a salvation issue.

And again: Why do you insist that this: Therefore do not let anyone judge you: Applies to the first three items in the list: by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration But not the final part of the same list? or a Sabbath day.

If you read my responses to you proving the scripture contexts to you you that you have disregarded by cherry picking scripture from its context you would already know the answer to this question. You question is a strawman I am not making. I do not insist on anything you have posted here. That is you making stuff up I have never said. So why pretend I am saying things I have never said? If you disagree post me a link where I have ever said to you judging others only applied to some of the Colossians 2:16? If you cant then what is your argument you have none and are simply spreading misinformation because you have been left with no wiggle room and have not been able to respond to what was posted to you proving why you do not understand the scriptures you talk about. If you disagree please address all the posts and the scriptures that are in disagreement with you...

Post # 1. Chapter context of Colossians 2:11-17 and within scripture context of Colossians 2:16 (post # 1618 linked)
Post # 2. Colossians 2:16 what is Paul quoting from in the old testament scriptures (post # 1620 linked)
Post # 3. Colossians 2:16 what is Paul quoting from in the new testament scriptures (post # 1622 linked)
Post # 4. Why it is impossible Gods creation Sabbath of Gods 10 commandments cannot be a shadow law of anything (post # 1657 linked)


You simply ignored the above right and were unable to respond to all the scriptures here that are in disagreement with your interpretation of a single scripture taken out of context to the rest of the bible. Now if you cannot address a single post here what is your argument? You have none do you. No you are trying to make the argument about something I have never said to you. Just be honest. It is quite clear you do not know God or His Word.

It makes no sense; what you are pushing is a blatantly obvious removal of words from their transparently obvious context in order to push a contrived doctrine. It couldn’t be any clearer. Whether you translate it as a sabbath day or sabbath days makes no difference at all to the meaning.

Go on you made the claim here now post me and prove your claims. You cannot can you. Lets be honest you are deflecting your contrived doctrine by cheery picking scripture taken out of its context to the rest of the bible. You are the one pulling scripture from its context and are the one trying to build your contrived doctrine of lawlessness because you chose to cherry pick scripture and have disregarded the scripture contexts to the rest of the bible that is in disagreement with you. This is proven in those linked posted above that you refuse to respond to. Colossians 2:16 is not about the Gods Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments it is about the meat and drink offerings and laws of atonement linked to the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the annual Feast days and judging others in this regard. Now please be honest. This scripture is not even telling anyone to disregard the Sabbath commandment of Gods 10 commandments is it? If is clear you neither know God or His Word.

 

[3rdAngel]

The same way anyone can study and understand any religion they don’t believe in.

This is something you cannot understand as an unbeliever and does not believe and obey Gods Word. You can never know God and His Words if God is not your guide and teacher (Isaiah 55:8-9). God only promises to teach all those who believe and obey what His Word says (see John 3:36; John 14:26; John 16:13). Your unbelief only proves you do not know God and His Word because you are still in your sins and unbelief.

 

[3rdAngel]

3rdAngel said: I was wondering why you were finding it so hard to understand plain scripture.

I posted the above after you admitted you are an unbeliever that does not believe in God and His Words and are still in your sins.

Of the two of us it’s not me that cannot understand the obvious meaning. You are lost in the your dogma; this is what lost actually means, the inability to think beyond fixed ideas you have accepted despite all evidence to the contrary.

Yes indeed it is you that cannot understand the obvious meaning of scripture. This has already been proven in our discussions. The evidence is your inability to have a discussion in regards to the scriptures that disprove your interpretation of the scriptures and your unwillingness to discuss detail in the scriptures. It is clear you do not know them. But that is ok. I have enjoyed our discussion.

 

[3rdAngel]

So do you think God takes one day a week off every week?

Sure you can read about it here in Genesis 2:1-3. Jesus says He made the Sabbath for all mankind in Mark 2:27 and He is the Lord of it in Mark 2:28 and command us to keep the Sabbath as a holy day of rest in Gods 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11.

 

[3rdAngel]

The messianic prophecies have in fact NOT been fulfilled.

Not for you. You are still waiting for your Messiah right? Ours has already arrived according to the scriptures. It was the one who your fathers denied and killed.

 

[3rdAngel]

False.

True.

 

[3rdAngel]

Here let me add the full context of my quote back in that you are part quoting me from so we can have an honest discussion.

GENESIS 2:1-3 [1], Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY God ended his work which he had made; and HE RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; KEEP SABBATH] on the SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made. [3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY AND MADE IT HOLY: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED [שׁבת; shâbath H7673; Keep Sabbath] from all his work which God created and made.

God blessed the Sabbath day and made the Sabbath day a holy day of rest for all mankind.....

MARK 2:27-28 [27], And he said unto them, THE SABBATH WAS MADE FOR MAN, and not man for the Sabbath:[28], so that the Son of man is LORD OF THE SABBATH (creator).

Your response....

False. There is absolutely NOTHING in Genesis 2:1-3 that commands anyone rest. NOTHING. It states that *God* rested. It does not enjoin on anyone else to do likewise.

No one said there was. So why pretend I said that Genesis 2:1-3 says that God is commanding us to keep the Sabbath? Can you post me or highlight the section in my post above of me saying Genesis 2:1-3 is a commandment to keep the Sabbath? If I never made that statement why pretend that is what I said and why leave out the last two lines of my post above that demonstrated my point about Jesus saying that God made the Sabbath for all mankind?

How is Mark before Sinai? Sheesh. You really don't know how to do this, do you.

I did not quote Mark I quoted Jesus in Mark 2:27 saying the Sabbath was made for man.... It seems you are the one that does not know how to do this.

Yet you haven't been able to show me a single one.

Well you are not being honest. You have already been shown scripture of God saying Abraham knew and obeyed His laws before Mt Sinai. Are you calling God a liar when he says. Genesis 26:5 5, Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. I mean if course you can believe what you want. I believe what the scriptures teach.

Again, you have been totally unable to document WHICH laws that refers to. You are ASSUMING that it includes teh Sabbath, but can offer NO EVIDENCE that any command was given prior to the manna incident.

Not really I already have shown you that Abraham understood the old covenant laws of atonement for sin in animal sacrifices and sin offerings. As did Noah and Gods people before them. If they understood what sin was and how to receive atonement or forgiveness of sins it is not unreasonable to believe that they know what Gods laws were in able to understand what sin was. You are the one assuming they had no idea yet I have provided you with scripture proving otherwise and that you are assuming they did not know. If they did not know what sin was why would God destroy people that did not know what sin was? Is that the God you follow? Think your argument through before posting.

This is not personal for me. I'm actually quite fine with others disagreeing with me. And honestly, if keeping the sabbath brings you closer to God, go for it. I just don't think it is obligatory for you in the way that it is for me.

Believing and obeying Gods Word is indeed obligatory for anyone who claims the name of God. Doing anything less is sin in Gods eyes.