PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
The NT Bible Trinity is different from later Church doctrine. The Son or the Word is a kind of demiurge, subordinate to the Father.... "The Father is greater than me." "Only the Father knows..."
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Trinity
- Thread starter Jimmy
- Start date
The NT Bible Trinity is different from later Church doctrine. The Son or the Word is a kind of demiurge, subordinate to the Father.... "The Father is greater than me." "Only the Father knows..."
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The way I see it. God is absolute, his breath expanding his unseen to the world is the holy spirit and is the position of the breath of God that points back to God in creation, and that position was occupied by Jesus (a) temporarily, for he was light of the world so long as he was in the world per his own words. So before him it was John (a), and after him it was Elijah (a) proving by the fact that people opposed John and Jesus, and Jesus going to heaven, means someone has to take this role on earth and so Elyas (a) definitely is proven to return, but in a hidden way.
Name of God is a position, started on earth from Adam (a), it's the leadership towards guidance, which people took for themselves falsely and lead to corruption of generations leading to Noah (a).
Jesus (a) is the breath and name of God, the spirit from God and of God, but this position is not unique to him.
Ibrahim (a) attained this position as well.
Now, ranks existed between different Ahlulbayts, so while Elijah (a) can replace the position of Jesus (a), Jesus (a) cannot replace the position of the spirit of God's Authority vested in Mohamad (s) to Hassan Al-Askari (a).
The guide in this age thus must be from Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s), and it can't be Elyas (a), Khidr (a) or Idris (Enoch) (a).
This is because heaven augmentation that took place through Mohammad (s) must continue and because blessings brought forth are never taken away. This is because God doesn't abrogate or cause disappear a sign except he brings one like it or better and brighter.
The Gospels were not books written or inspired to disciples to write. It was in fact the word of God paraphrased and they compliment each other. Even the infancy Gospels are mostly intact and from God.
Some of the Gospels contradict Quran, but most of it does not.
You should also see my topic about Shiite hadiths matching up with the Gospels.
Name of God is a position, started on earth from Adam (a), it's the leadership towards guidance, which people took for themselves falsely and lead to corruption of generations leading to Noah (a).
Jesus (a) is the breath and name of God, the spirit from God and of God, but this position is not unique to him.
Ibrahim (a) attained this position as well.
Now, ranks existed between different Ahlulbayts, so while Elijah (a) can replace the position of Jesus (a), Jesus (a) cannot replace the position of the spirit of God's Authority vested in Mohamad (s) to Hassan Al-Askari (a).
The guide in this age thus must be from Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (s), and it can't be Elyas (a), Khidr (a) or Idris (Enoch) (a).
This is because heaven augmentation that took place through Mohammad (s) must continue and because blessings brought forth are never taken away. This is because God doesn't abrogate or cause disappear a sign except he brings one like it or better and brighter.
The Gospels were not books written or inspired to disciples to write. It was in fact the word of God paraphrased and they compliment each other. Even the infancy Gospels are mostly intact and from God.
Some of the Gospels contradict Quran, but most of it does not.
You should also see my topic about Shiite hadiths matching up with the Gospels.
Paul never invented trinity. His explanation was that of sword of God and position of the Welayat of the holy spirit and he talks about this position of leadership and exalted authority from Adam (a) all the way down to Jesus (a) in his writings. He is misunderstood just like Jesus (a) is.
The problem is people think Jesus (a) and Paul acknowledged ALL of the Torah and Tanakh which is false. They correct it in many ways.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Pauline (and Johannine) theology is not yet Trinity but it (they) certainly contributed to later formulation of Trinity.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
It's the sorcery, it mind destroyed people to not see what he was saying nor the Gospels, and used them both to blind people.
Something sinister doesn't want people to see the Gospels for what they truly say much like the sorcery blocks people from perceiving the verses about Ahlulbayt (a) in the Quran.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
I don't think it' was sorcery. Just development of different doctrines and a little politics:
Arian controversy - Wikipedia
LeftyLen
Active Member
The Roman Trinity is an amalgamation of Greep philosophy, roman religion with some scripture. The creedal Trinity enforced at Nicaea was politically enforced by imperial decree, forced by a very shrewd but corrupt Emperor. Thats your debate point.
LeftyLen
Active Member
Issac Newton called the Trinity 'theological gibberish." In the trinity Jesus seems to be a part of God that broke off. From Paul to Constantine there was a miasma of beliefs, the trinity that emerged as official dogma was one of those beliefs.The Triune Nature of God makes sense to me because God is Love and I believe a loving relationship has existed between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit eternally.
You may like this…
The Trinity
Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,www.thebereancall.org
I am amazed at the way the Creator has stamped and revealed His triune nature throughout creation.
“In Romans:1:20
Paul argues that God's "eternal power and Godhead" are seen in the creation He made. God's eternal power—but His Godhead? Yes, as Dr. Wood pointed out years ago in The Secret of the Universe, the triune nature of God is stamped on His creation. The cosmos is divided into three: space, matter and time. Each of these is divided into three. Space, for instance, is composed of length, breadth and width, each separate and distinct in itself, yet the three are one. Length, breadth and width are not three spaces, but three dimensions comprising one space. Run enough lines lengthwise and you take in the whole. But so it is with the width and height. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is all of space—just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is each God.
Time also is a trinity: past, present and future—two invisible and one visible. Each is separate and distinct, yet each is the whole. Man himself is a triunity of spirit, soul and body, two of which are invisible, one visible. Many more details could be given of the Godhead's triunity reflected in the universe. It can hardly be coincidence.”
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
Jesus said he was God.
- I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
- Before Abraham was, I am
- If you've seen me, you've seen the Father
Sure, same with the Quran. It has a political atmosphere that blinded people to family of Mohammad (s), but it still is not possible to happen without the sorcery. They work in conjunction.I don't think it' was sorcery. Just development of different doctrines and a little politics:
Arian controversy - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
LeftyLen
Active Member
'I and the Father are one"-- yes in goal , plan of salvation. I AM is Yahweh, Jesus in the OT..".If you have seen me you have seen the Father. "--Letting the Apostles the Father is not some nebulas space goo.
1. Yes they are one in purpose. 2. Jesus is the great I AM Yahweh of the OT.. 3. To the Apostles the Father was like Him, and not some nebulas spirit goo.
4. modern Christians wish to apply a "doctrinal exclusion" to declare who is or isn't Christian. Such definitions are generally self-serving, and not very helpful. With the Nicene Creed, critics are ironically in the position of using a definition that would exclude all Christians for more than two centuries after Christ from the Christian fold.
These passages are succinct summaries. If a critic wishes to justify his or her belief in the creedal Trinity, they must rely on tradition and the creeds of the 4th century, and abandon claims of scriptural or historical support for such a belief in early Christianity, including among the apostles and those they taught.
Jimmy
King Phenomenon
- I and the Father are one: (John 10:30)
- Before Abraham was, I am
- If you've seen me, you've seen the Father
InChrist
Free4ever
That’s not how I see the Triune Nature of the Godhead at all, nor do I follow church creeds. Just the biblical scriptures…
“The Bible presents a God who did not need to create any beings to experience love, communion and fellowship. This God is complete in Himself, being three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, separate and distinct, yet at the same time eternally one God. They loved and communed and fellowshiped with each other and took counsel together before the universe, angels or man were brought into existence. Isaiah "heard the voice of the Lord [in eternity past] saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" (Isa:6:8
). Moses revealed the same counseling together of the Godhead: "And God said, Let usmake man in our image, after our likeness"; and again, "Let us go down, and there confound their language" (Gen:1:26
;11:7). Who is this "us" if God is a single entity? Why does God say, "The man is become as one of us" (Gen:3:22)?”
The Trinity
Many Christians are at a loss to understand, much less to defend, the "Trinity." Critics argue that that word is not even found in the Bible. To deal with that issue, we must begin with God,
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Trinity
LeftyLen said:
The Roman Trinity is an amalgamation of Greek philosophy, roman religion with some scripture. The creedal Trinity enforced at Nicaea was politically enforced by imperial decree, forced by a very shrewd but corrupt Emperor. Thats your debate point.
LeftyLen said:
'I and the Father are one"-- yes in goal , plan of salvation.
Good points by friend @LeftyLen , thanks.
Jesus never said that he was literally god, it is others (Paulines) who are made to misunderstand him.
Regarsds