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Trump is losing the debate acting like a raving lunatic

Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We Never Know said:
Without the EC, the 10+/- most populace states would/could control the presidency.
I don't see that as right either.
Click to expand...
How could they do that? States never vote 100% for one candidate. You are doing an odd mix of the two systems. Yes, if we based electoral votes only on population that could happen, but no one is proposing that. What is being proposed is that everyone's vote counts. No EC, each state would just contribute their votes to the grand total.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
We Never Know said:
Exactly! Their only voice is their EC votes.

For example Philadelphia could cancel out the whole state of voters.
Click to expand...
You keep referring to a state and a large city as if they are just one entity each. No. States don't vote. Cities don't vote. Citizens vote. And every citizen should have the right for their vote for president to count equally as any other citizen anywhere else in the USA. The president represents all citizens, and with the EC system some citizens have a bigger voice than others. And what does this bigger voice get them in practical terms? Wyoming citizens get to vote for their choice for president, and if most vote for Trump and that doesn't win him the popular vote, their votes still contributed equally to any other citizen anywere else in the USA.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
F1fan said:
There is no rational argument for why anyone would support Trump and vote for him..
Click to expand...
They're not really voting for him .. they are voting for what he stands for.
i.e. Republican

F1fan said:
What is bad about Harris that makes her on par with the criminal candidate?
Click to expand...
..but that's the thing ..

In the 21st century, the term (big lie) has been applied to attempts to overturn the result of the 2020 U.S. presidential election by Donald Trump and his allies, specifically the false claim that the election was stolen through massive voter and electoral fraud. The scale of the claims resulted in Trump supporters attacking the United States Capitol. Later reports indicate that Trump knew he had genuinely lost the election while promoting the narrative.

Scholars say that constant repetition across many different forms of media is necessary for the success of the big lie technique, as is a psychological motivation for the public to believe the extreme assertions.
Big_lie - Wikipedia

It appears that people ignore his lies, as they prefer Republican policy, as it makes them more
wealthy.

F1fan said:
She's a stable person, she is well accomplished as a lawyer and prosecutor, she's not a criminal, she doesn't exhibit any mental problems, she actually cares about others, she aims to implement policies that will actually move the economy forward and help the average citizen..
Click to expand...
Ah, but she's not a Republican .. so she is the problem .. she will destroy the US .. strip it
of its privileges.

Hey! Maybe not so many immigrants will actually want (or need) to go there, as other countries might
have "a share of the pie" . :)
 
Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
F1fan said:
You keep referring to a state and a large city as if they are just one entity each. No. States don't vote. Cities don't vote. Citizens vote. And every citizen should have the right for their vote for president to count equally as any other citizen anywhere else in the USA. The president represents all citizens, and with the EC system some citizens have a bigger voice than others. And what does this bigger voice get them in practical terms? Wyoming citizens get to vote for their choice for president, and if most vote for Trump and that doesn't win him the popular vote, their votes still contributed equally to any other citizen anywere else in the USA.
Click to expand...

A lot of people have been clamoring to do away with the Electoral College, but to no avail. It's too much of a sacred cow in many people's eyes, so it doesn't look like it's going away any time soon. But there could be ways of modifying it, such as having it at the district level instead of a "winner take all" situation like it is in most states.

There might also be a way of addressing the root concerns, at least in the sense that the original reason for the EC was that the smaller, sparsely populated rural states don't get rolled over and dominated by the larger, more densely populated states. I'm not sure that's as much a concern today as it was in the early days of the U.S. Power is more centralized in the Federal government than it once was. The Federal government is expected to enforce and safeguard everyone's rights, regardless of whether they live in Wyoming or California.

The issue of representation may also be valid. Even if apportioned equally, 1 representative per 700,000 people seems insufficient. Back in 1790, the ratio was 1 representative per 35,000 people. There's an area where reform is needed.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Is it just a tactic because cities tend to vote Democrat, or do you really disagree with the principle of equal representation?
Click to expand...
Fair point..
I do think that 'the weight' a state's vote carries should be proportional to its population.
It is entirely reasonable, imo, for some states to carry more weight than others.
Naturally, Republicans will not agree. :rolleyes:

Nothing really wrong with the 'first-past the post' system in general though.
There will always be winners and losers.
..and govt. needs leadership .. just not one that is greedy for power.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Stevicus said:
There might also be a way of addressing the root concerns, at least in the sense that the original reason for the EC was that the smaller, sparsely populated rural states don't get rolled over and dominated by the larger, more densely populated states.
Click to expand...
No, it was for two reasons:

- to allow for a process with actual deliberation by delegates.
- to ensure a balance between slave states and abolitionist states.

Both of these reasons are now obsolete. Slavery isn't a thing, and EC members are generally no longer free to delegate and negotiate on behalf of their states.

And remember: when the EC was enacted, EC delegates were sent by state legislatures without a vote of the people, so it was never a matter of choosing the system that the US has ended up with. Nobody ever chose "popular vote filtered through a state-by-state winner-take-all system" vs. "direct national popular vote."
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
F1fan said:
There is no rational argument for why anyone would support Trump and vote for him knowing what is available about him. The man is disturbed, has obvious mental decline, lies about the most stupid things that can be confirmed as untrue, is a convicted felon, faces more criminal charges, has vowed to get revenge against anyone who has opposed him, and will allow the impiemntation of Agenda 47 and project 2025, which have horrible and in some cases illegal aims.

What is bad about Harris that makes her on par with the criminal candidate?

She's a stable person, she is well accomplished as a lawyer and prosecutor, she's not a criminal, she doesn't exhibit any mental problems, she actually cares about others, she aims to implement policies that will actually move the economy forward and help the average citizen. Some of her ideas are ambitious, but at least they don't target categories of human beings with intent to harm them, like what Trump intends to do to migrants, even those here legally.

In what way are Harris supporters scum for a candidate that has such excellent virture? I've explained my argument for why Trump supporters are deliberately flawed as "thinkers" and how their support reflects badly on their character, so where is your explanation? Nothing? That just reinforces how flawed your thinking process is. You definately have these beliefs, but you can't ariculate why you have them, and why you say you "can say the same thing about Harris supporters". You could say it, but I guess you are aware you have no argument to actually say it.
Click to expand...
yeah Yeah. I explained it in post 947.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Stevicus said:
There might also be a way of addressing the root concerns, at least in the sense that the original reason for the EC was that the smaller, sparsely populated rural states don't get rolled over and dominated by the larger, more densely populated states.
Click to expand...
..but they would not .. everybody has a say .. and many people in the cities would prefer to live in
a less dense environment, but cannot due to poverty, that is exacerbated by Republican policy.

I am fully aware that poverty exists in rural areas too .. but why?
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
SkepticThinker said:
www.pbs.org

Trump's attacks on prosecutors echo long history of racist language

Even if he doesn't explicitly employ racial slurs, his language recalls America's history of portraying Black people as not fully human.
www.pbs.org www.pbs.org

apnews.com

Trump indicted for efforts to overturn 2020 election and block transfer of power

Donald Trump has been indicted on felony charges for working to overturn the results of the 2020 election in the run-up to the violent riot by his supporters at the U.S.
apnews.com apnews.com
www.theatlantic.com

Trump Says He’ll Be a Dictator on ‘Day One’

But not after that.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
www.nbcnews.com

Key Trump allies charged in fake electors scheme in Wisconsin

Trump-aligned attorney Kenneth Chesebro, Trump's head of Election Day operations Mike Roman, and former Trump campaign attorney James Troupis were charged Tuesday.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com


apnews.com

Trump says he didn't know his immigration rhetoric echoes Hitler. That's part of a broader pattern

Donald Trump is facing criticism for repeatedly harnessing rhetoric once used by Adolf Hitler to argue that immigrants entering the U.S. illegally are “poisoning the blood of our country."
apnews.com apnews.com

"Former President Donald Trump said immigrants coming to the U.S. are “poisoning the blood of our country,” a remark on Saturday that quickly drew a rebuke from his chief Democratic rival as President Joe Biden’s campaign likened the words to those of Adolf Hitler.

“They let — I think the real number is 15, 16 million people into our country. When they do that, we got a lot of work to do. They’re poisoning the blood of our country,” Trump told the crowd at a rally in New Hampshire. “That’s what they’ve done. They poison mental institutions and prisons all over the world, not just in South America, not just to three or four countries that we think about, but all over the world. They’re coming into our country from Africa, from Asia, all over the world.”
www.nbcnews.com

Trump says people crossing the border bring 'very contagious disease' with them

"They’re coming in as terrorists," the former president said of some people who cross the border.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com


apnews.com

Jury finds Trump liable for sexual abuse, awards accuser $5M

A jury has found Donald Trump liable for sexually abusing advice columnist E. Jean Carroll in 1996. Jurors awarded her $5 million in a judgment that could haunt the former president as he campaigns to regain the White House. The verdict was announced in a federal courtroom in New York City on...
apnews.com apnews.com
www.bbc.com

US election: Full transcript of Donald Trump's obscene videotape

The full transcript of the conversation between Donald Trump and a TV host in 2005 in which the US presidential candidate made obscene comments about women.
www.bbc.com


www.nbcnews.com

'It's very possible': Trump floats imprisoning his political opponents

Discussing his guilty verdict, Trump said his opponents were going down a "terrible path."
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
nymag.com

Trump’s ‘He Did It First’ Rationale for Locking Up His Critics

The lie hiding behind the other lie.
nymag.com nymag.com



Somebody is definitely being dishonest about Trump, It's not Harris supporters. It's his own supporters.
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Whatever. I have responded to all of these mostly misrepresentations, outright lies and reading into them what you want before. It won't change your mind if I do it again. I will vote for Trump, you vote for Harris and when Trump wins you can thank me for being better off in 4 years.
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
No, you didn't.

You explained how you think it's unfair how people think badly of you for voting for Trump, but you didn't say anything about what you disagree with about voting for Harris.
Click to expand...
That is not what you asked. You asked why I thought voting for Harris looked bad on someone's character. That is what I answered.
 
muhammad_isa

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
I will vote for Trump, you vote for Harris and when Trump wins you can thank me for being better off in 4 years.
Click to expand...
Better off?
Are you all better off, just because you become even more wealthy as a nation than you already are?
(ie. the wealthiest nation in the world)

I don't see that as "better off" .. being responsible for other nations poverty, and becoming a target
for immigration, terror and hate. :neutral:
 
Clizby Wampuscat

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
muhammad_isa said:
Better off?
Are you all better off, just because you become even more wealthy as a nation than you already are?
(ie. the wealthiest nation in the world)

I don't see that as "better off" .. being responsible for other nations poverty, and becoming a target
for immigration, terror and hate. :neutral:
Click to expand...
You just created a straw man argument.
 
We Never Know

We Never Know

No Slack
F1fan said:
But in her defense the EC system means her vote won't matter. My vote in a red state won't matter either. Our votes don't add to the total of the popular vote for president te EC system appoints electors by state, and in an imbalanced way. Right now the election for president comes down to a few counties in pennsylvania. A few other swing states are on the bubble too. The rest of the USA doesn't matter. The EC is already decided and the only motivation to vote is local elections. It is disappointing to feel powerless to this archaic system.
Click to expand...
Since her vote doesnt matter people need to get off her *** on how she votes! That was my point.
 
Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
muhammad_isa said:
(ie. the wealthiest nation in the world)
Click to expand...
https://www.usdebtclock.org/
US national debt: USD 35,381,344,000,000 when I checked. 35,381, 348,000,000 by the time I wrote this post.
India's national debt: USD 2,087,691.6 as of March 2024 :)
USD 2 billion. Just during the week we placed an order for some 90 predator drones for USD 4 billion.

India National Government Debt, 1998 – 2024 | CEIC Data

India National Government Debt reached 2,087.7 USD bn in Mar 2024, compared with 2,045.2 USD bn in the previous quarter.
www.ceicdata.com www.ceicdata.com
 
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SkepticThinker

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Clizby Wampuscat said:
Whatever. I have responded to all of these mostly misrepresentations, outright lies and reading into them what you want before. It won't change your mind if I do it again. I will vote for Trump, you vote for Harris and when Trump wins you can thank me for being better off in 4 years.
Click to expand...
Nonsense, attempted cop out, and projection.

Keep your head in the sand, then.
Your choice.
Though why you'd choose to do so is beyond me.
Everything you claimed others have said about Trump is verifiable. You don't seem all that well informed and you don't seem interested in becoming informed.
Oh well.
 
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Pogo

Pogo

Well-Known Member
We Never Know said:
The EC is the only way states like Wyoming, N & S Dakota, etc have a voice.
Many cities alone could/would cancel out the whole state of Wyoming.
They are minority states when it comes to population.
Don't youns always go on about how minorities should have a voice and be heard?
Click to expand...

But it is not states that are the subject of democracy, it is people and the electoral college distorts the importance of individual voters.
As for population, that is more than adequately distorted in favor of small states in the Senate.

LOL :(
 
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