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  1. VoidoftheSun

    Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

    I'll take ownership to that without flinching.
  2. VoidoftheSun

    Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

    That's far from true. Islam isn't anti-world like Christianity but it certainly doesn't glorify it either: Know that the life of this world is just play and diversion, and glitter,and mutual vainglory among you and covetousness for wealth and children—like the rain whose vegetation impresses...
  3. VoidoftheSun

    Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

    Yeah I largely agree with you and myself hold problems with the way Jesus is depicted in the NT (which I don't consider authoritative). As for the so-called "Messianic Judaism" aka evangelical Christians trying to hijack Judaism, yes that makes me pretty angry. It's highly anachronistic (it's...
  4. VoidoftheSun

    Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

    Also known as Nazarenes. There were multiple movements that popped up pretty quickly, all spreading oral tradition all with competing ideologies, all distinctly different from Christianity. The stream going through Paul and Peter is what later evolved into what you term "Christianity", which...
  5. VoidoftheSun

    Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

    Yes that's correct but it's also very explicitly true that the early Church(s) wasn't "Christianity" either. "Christianity" being a 3rd and 4th century trend culminating in the Catholic church.
  6. VoidoftheSun

    Is using the word "IF" legitimate in front of "God's" question ?

    But the problem is the misattribution of things that people ourselves alone do, projecting it onto the Absolute. At the same time though, I would have no problem projecting evil onto God, with the clause that all good is also projected onto God. The problem though that you speak of has it's...
  7. VoidoftheSun

    Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

    Is my understanding correct that the term "The Son (of God)" is taken as a synonym with "Manifestation of God", but that in the case of Jesus it was a special symbolic title associated with him? Each Prophet being somewhat of a manifestation of "The Son", in this sense? Each "Manifestation of...
  8. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    I don't know. As I've already mentioned we're dealing with sparse oral tradition recorded in different forms at different times by anonymous authors narrative them. Some people argue the Paraclete (mentioned in John 14), which I like the idea of but don't find sufficient enough. But the Qur'an...
  9. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    Sure, I believe the historical Jesus prophesied Muhammad, that's no contention from me.
  10. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    I've seen arguments against and for, and I'm just not concerned. I rejected the Bible long before I accepted the Qur'an. The claims of the Qur'an and of Muhammad are a separate matter to me, but if people want to take up 7:157 under such an interpretation, then more power to them, I won't stop...
  11. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    As already said, it is the Pentateuch and the four NT biographies of Jesus that I have issues with on the basis of their own contents, format/style and claims. As I already quoted yesterday: The book of Luke even directly goes out of it's way to describe what the book matter of fact is...
  12. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    I will also add that the concept of a "torah" and a "gospel" are internal concepts in the books that are overall titled as such. - and also remembering that for Jews, the Talmud is also part of "Torah", meaning that we are not just talking about five books alone. For the biographies of Jesus...
  13. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    And my problem is that a simple reading of the Pentateuch and the four biographies of Jesus do not add up so such conclusions, therefore I have to reject them as any basis of authority. The Injeel especially, considering the Qur'an says multiple times that it was a revelation given directly to...
  14. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    And that's where I am a massive cynic because I remain thoroughly unconvinced by the Pentateuch and the four biographies of Jesus in the NT. The Pentateuch is not simply just God speaking to Moses, it is something else. And the four biographies of Jesus in the NT are not the revelations received...
  15. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    Well technically it was still being canonized well into the 7th century, so you're not entirely correct.
  16. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    Bit deceptive. The "New Testament" is not part of the "Old Testament" (Tanakh). There is no Jesus in the Old Testament, no matter how much the authors of the New Testament want to erroneously try to misquote passages that aren't even prophetic. Ultimately it comes down to the New Testament...
  17. VoidoftheSun

    Should Muslims be concerned with what is written in Gospel and Torah?

    No, I don't think Muslims should be concerned about Jewish and Christian texts either way (positively or negatively).
  18. VoidoftheSun

    Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

    That is not true. "Christian" just means a follower of Jesus (of which it originated as a derogatory word to insult them, and the early followers of Jesus were Nazarenes). Believing that Jesus was God is a later thing. As far as the New Testament is concerned, the best you can get is that Jesus...
  19. VoidoftheSun

    Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

    I don't see much light in any version of Christianity whatsoever. Especially not in Catholic and Protestant forms, both which are devil-worshipers. However I think there is good reason to respect and admire the Coptic Orthodox. But Christianity will always be a "false-religion" and a very late...
  20. VoidoftheSun

    Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

    Love DT! :hearteyes:
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