126,000 babies died today.

[Truth_Faith13]

now why is it, do you suppose, that doctors use the term fetus in medical records?
Could it be because it is the correct term to use or is it as you have presented, because they do not want it?

I wasnt on about Doctors - i was on about the women who were pregnant. I have never heard people who actually want their child going round saying "We are having a fetus" or saying "Hello fetus" to the tummy of the mother!

 

[Ðanisty]

I think everyone here wants to prevent abortion. The issue is with criminalizing it when that won't do anything but put the mothers in danger. If we want to prevent abortions, or even seriously consider banning it, we must first turn towards perfecting birth control, fighting poverty, improving the adoption process, providing expecting mothers with free social programs, supplying everyone with unbiased sex education, addressing sexual predators and forced exploitation, and counseling teenagers -- on a world scale.

It would also help if sterilization was more readily available to people who don't want children. It's not easy convincing a doctor to perform a tubal ligation or vasectomy if you don't already have children. What gives doctors the right to make this decision for their patients?

If you are thinking of having an abortion, trust me, and don't...

Why should someone trust you? Give me some sort of reason to believe you're an authority on the issue of abortion.

I've never heard a pregnant woman talk about her "fetus." In my experience, they always call them their "babies," even if they're not born yet.

That all depends on the circumstances. Obviously people who want children are going to be more endearing about the whole thing. I don't know why this should surprise anyone or why it should offend anyone that people who don't want kids aren't attached to the fetus they're carrying.

 

[FFH]

In the context of how this thread has gotten into the topic of "soul" by some Christians...perhaps these verses should be pondered:

Matthew 8:22: "But Jesus told him, 'Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.'"​

And from Jude verse 12, the author speaks of those that are "twice dead."​

Even Genesis chapter 2 alludes to a time before man was given the "breath of life."

The idea of soul, in Judaism, is broken into 5 categories--the first of which is the Nefesh: "the Nefesh is in the blood." Therefore, even animals have that type of "soul."

This arguement over soul is, as Cardero expressed quite well, quite ridiculous, as it cannot be proven. Furthermore, the "soul", in various religions, has many levels, of which are integrated over a long spiritual process.

Yeah, I don't like that term, I would rather use the term "spirit".

A human spirit enters into the womb at conception, prior to this the egg and sperm have no spirit, just living organic matter, in answer to Danisty's post...

The spirit does not enter in at the point in which a child starts to breathe on it's own, or when the ambilical chord is cut, or both..

 

[FFH]

Exalting a fetus to more than what it actually is or what it can potentially become does not support one's position either.

True, so then why take the liberal view of abortion ??? Because it makes us feel better when we break the commandment which states, "Thou shalt not kill". We will be judged for our own thoughts, words and actions concerning this matter, according to the knowledge we have...

There is forgiveness for abortion, but those who willfully and repeatedly rebel against this law of God, and do not turn from this sin, will not escape it's fixed punishment/consequences...

THEOLOGIC OR RELIGIOUS FAITH BELIEF

This is best explained by considering three people who might state their respective beliefs as follows:

a) I believe in God. I believe He creates a soul. I believe the soul is created at conception. Therefore, I believe that human Life begins at conception.

b) I also believe in God and a soul but I don’t believe the soul is created until birth (or some other time). Therefore, I believe that human life begins at birth (or some other time).

c) I don’t believe in God or a soul.

Comment

- The above are statements of religious faith or its absence.

- None of the above religious faith beliefs can be factually proven.

- Each individual has a right to his or her own religious beliefs

Not believing in a law of God is a poor excuse for willfully disobeying this law of God, which demands respect for the sanctity of an innocent life and all life for that matter...

God has put his spirit in it at conception and therefore we have no right to terminate that life, otherwise we are saying to God that we are God and we know what's best for this human spirit, and for ourselves, and it would be better to terminate this life in order to save a bunch of money, heartache and suffering for the mother, father and the child...

Let the child make that decision, when he is old enough, whether he wants to terminate his life or not, based on his current situaion...

I know an illigitimate grown adult who is very succesful, who Is grateful to have been born and not aborted, in spite of the way he entered into this life, not being fully accepted by either one of his parent's siblings...

I first met him when he was a wreck, now he is married and has three kids and a business of his own and active in the LDS church..

He used to be a drug dealer and bought 10,000 dollars worth of drugs at a time...

 

[McBell]

Yeah, I don't like that term, I would rather use the term "spirit".

A human spirit enters into the womb at conception, prior to this the egg and sperm have no spirit, just living organic matter, in answer to Danisty's post...

The spirit does not enter at the point in which a child starts to breathe on it's own, or when the umbilical chord is cut, or both..

And what gives you this impression, that the spirit enters at conception?

Not believing in a law of God is a poor excuse for willfully disobeying this law of God, which demands respect for the sanctity of an innocent life and all life for that matter...

Here it is again, that phrase 'sanctity of life.'
I notice you have not made comment on my reply to the last time you used this phrase.
Perhaps I need copy paste it in reply every time you use the phrase to get a response?

The more you listen to this abortion debate, the more you hear the phrase "sanctity of life"...
...Life is sacred?
who said so?
God?
If you read history you realize that God is one of the leading causes of death.
You know where the sanctity of life came from?
We made it up.
You know why?
Cause we're alive.
self interest
living people have a strong interest in somehow promoting that life is sacred.
dead people give less than a crap about the sanctity of life.
only living people care about it.
It is a self serving man made BS story..
it is one of those things we tell ourselves so that we feel noble.
If everything that ever lived is dead and everything that is alive is going to die, where does the sacred part come in?

God has put his spirit in it at conception and therefore we have no right to terminate that life, otherwise we are saying to God that we are God and we know what's best for this human spirit, and for ourselves, and it would be better to terminate this life in order to save a bunch of money, heartache and suffering for the mother, father and the child...

Two things I have to ask here:

1) And what gives you this impression, that the spirit/soul enters at conception?
2) What difference does it make when the spirit/soul enters the body?
​

Let the child make that decision, when he is old enough, whether he wants to terminate his life or not, based on his current situaion...

I know an illigitimate grown adult who is very succesful, who Is grateful to have been born and not aborted, in spite of the way he entered into this life, not being fully accepted by either one of his parent's siblings...

I first met him when he was a wreck, now he is married and has three kids and a business of his own and active in the LDS church..

He used to be a drug dealer and bought 10,000 dollars worth of drugs at a time...

relevance?

 

[FFH]

And what gives you this impression, that the spirit enters at conception?

This is a matter of fatih, which becomes knowledge, by a process of studying the facts, truths and beliefs on any given matter and then praying about them and asking God to confirm any given truth on any given matter...

If I ask God when the spirit enters, I could say "when the sperm is first created?' "when the egg is first created?" and logically the answer would be no, because each human spirit is singular, not split and then joined together at conception, so we can rule that out.

Then one needs to examine and ask the question "does a human spirit enter into a single human cell at the time the egg is fertilized?" . A logical answer would be yes, since it is a single living human organism.

The next question would be to ask "Does a human spirit enter into a child at the time it starts to breathe on it's own, or when it's no longer dependent on it's mother for nourishment, or both?" This is a good question and a legitimate one, but the answer is no, if you pray and ask God to reveal the truth concerning this matter, you will receive a "stupor of thought", in other words it will be hard if not impossible to think of such a thing happening (spirit entering in at the time of the first breath, ambilical chord cut, exiting the mother's womb, etc....

LDS church officials have stated that our human spirits enter into the womb at conception...

The next step for me to do is to pray about this, after I have studied all the biological stages of life and then ask God to reveal the truth or confirm the truth concerning this.

I instinctively already know the answer and really just need to study it out in my mind and look at it logically.

Truth/knowledge can be revealed to any one of us, based on our willingness to receive it. If we refuse to hear the answer, then we are willingly refusing to remain in ignorance concerning any given matter, in order to try and escape the realities of God, his laws and truths, and their affixed consequences for rebelling against them.

"Man cannot be saved in ignorance" ~God~

"Ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth" ~God~

Whether man believes in the truth's of God is irrespective of the fact that they are still true.

 

[McBell]

This is a matter of fatih, which becomes knowledge, by a process of studying the facts, truths and beliefs on any given matter and then praying about them and asking God to confirm any given truth on any given matter...

If I ask God when the spirit enters, I could say "when the sperm is first created?' "when the egg is first created?" and logically the answer would be no, because each human spirit is singular, not split and then joined together at conception, so we can rule that out.

Then one needs to examine and ask the question "does a human spirit enter into a single human cell at the time the egg is fertilized?" . A logical answer would be yes, since it is a single living human organism.

The next question would be to ask "Does a human spirit enter into a child at the time it starts to breathe on it's own, or when it's no longer dependent on it's mother for nourishment, or both?" This is a good question and a legitimate one, but the answer is no, if you pray and ask God to reveal the truth concerning this matter, you will receive a "stupor of thought", in other words it will be hard if not impossible to think of such a thing happening (spirit entering in at the time of the first breath, ambilical chord cut, exiting the mother's womb, etc....

LDS church officials have state that our human spirits enter into the womb at conception...

The next step for me to do is to pray about this, after I have studied all the biological stages of life and then ask God to reveal the truth or confirm the truth concerning this.

I instinctively already know the answer and reall just need to study it out in my mind and look at it logically.

Truth/knowledge can be revealed to any one of us, based on our willingness to receive it. If we refuse to hear the answer then we are willingly refusing to remain in ignorance concerning any given matter, in order to try and escape the realities of God and his laws and their affixed consequences for rebelling against them.

"Man cannot be saved in ignorance" ~God~

"Ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth" ~God~

Whether man believes in the truth's of God does not change the fact that they are still true.

So basically what you are saying is that you took a belief you have and then went to great lengths to ratify said belief?

And what happens to all the spirits that are flushed with the menstrual cycle because the fertilized egg did not attach to the wall of the uterus?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

So basically what you are saying is that you took a belief you have and then went to great lengths to ratify said belief?

And what happens to all the spirits that are flushed with the menstrual cycle because the fertilized egg did not attach to the wall of the uterus?

Same place every other sprit goes when we die - and its a miscarriage it isnt a menstrual cycle. The menstrual cycle ceases when the egg becomes fertilised. The mentsrual cycle is the clearance of the unfertilised egg. Or it could be because the person is on the pill which has failed to stop fertilisation.

I can understand people thinking an egg+sperm (zygote) is not a baby. But the problem with abortion is that the maximum time (23/24weeks?) the baby has formed and can live (fair enough with medical support) outside the body and in the world. The heart starts to beat at 3weeks!! Yet ppl would say end of life is stopping the heart, so why not accept that starting the heart is the start of life and that baby is alive! So where by YOUR definition does the fetus turn into a baby?

Abortion is used as birth control by irresponsible women and it is these I have a problem with (not including those as a result of rape etc) but the difference is the people who were raped etc terminate almost straight away. I dont agree with people who hang around for months until the baby is def formed and is def a baby and then terminates just because they are going to college/have a new job/ dont want a child - what do you think protection is for!!!!?

 

[FFH]

Here it is again, that phrase 'sanctity of life.'
I notice you have not made comment on my reply to the last time you used this phrase.

Sanctity of life means we are not allowed to terminate a human life, unless our own lives are threatened, as in the circumstances of war, and even then we can make the choice to be killed instead of killing another human soul...

Two things I have to ask here:

1) And what gives you this impression, that the spirit/soul enters at conception?​

Look at it logically, and tell me, can a human body have life without a human spirit in it? If you study the human spirit, you will know that when a human spirit leaves it's body, it can do nothing but what it's automated systems perform on a daily basis, breathing, heart beat, digestion, etc. It cannot move it's extrmeities, open it's eyes, talk, etc...​

Think about it carefully.​

It's spooky to think that a body could do all these things on it's own, like with breathing and digestion. What things would it do each day??? It cannot make decisions. We can program a robot to do certain specific tasks, but it cannot think and make random decisions.. It can respond to certain things, but cannot make any initial decisions, without any external programming, and never will be able to. This thought is equally spooky. because it never will happen, just as a human body, without it's spirit, will never get up and walk on it's own, but will lay motionless until it physically dies..​

2) What difference does it make when the spirit/soul enters the body?​

It makes all the difference, because one is saying to God, you created this life for this spirit, but I don't think it was such a good idea for this spirit to come down at this time into this embryo, considering our financial or other verious unfavorable circumstances...​

relevance?

Trying to show that these spirits want to come to earth, regardless of their circumstances, if it were not so, then this person I know would have long since taken his own life.. We don't have the right to interfere with another's choice to end his/her life...

If someone had taken my life in the womb, I would no doubt be born to another set of parents, but the point is that we don't have the right to say which spirits will be born and which will not...

This is strictly a decision that is not ours to make and if we don't respect that we will suffer the consequences if we willingly rebel against this law...

 

[FFH]

So basically what you are saying is that you took a belief you have and then went to great lengths to ratify said belief?

No, things that may be a matter of faith or belief or disbelief to others, are as common knowledge to me...

As I began to develope, cognatively, I was reminded of the truths of the unseen, by an unseen provider of knowledge (Holy Ghost) which is the spirit of God..

I can listen to man and his understanding, but if it doesn't fly with truth, as it has been revealed to me, through the Holy Ghost, then I will quickly reject it...

The only way I can describe this is that I can actually see the truth of many things which may boggle most minds...

I don't need anyone to convince me of the truths of God...

And what happens to all the spirits that are flushed with the menstrual cycle because the fertilized egg did not attach to the wall of the uterus?

They have lived out their brief mortal life and will automatically be a part of heaven. These spirits need no further testing in this mortal life, but they did need to gain a physical body (DNA) in order to become like God...

They are literally raised in heaven...

 

[McBell]

Same place every other sprit goes when we die - and its a miscarriage it isnt a menstrual cycle. The menstrual cycle ceases when the egg becomes fertilised. The mentsrual cycle is the clearance of the unfertilised egg. Or it could be because the person is on the pill which has failed to stop fertilisation.

I understand that the correct term is either miscarriage or abortion, but I did not want to use either of those terms because they tend to elicit emotion reactions do to the fact that most people limit the definitions to the political ones used most often.

I can understand people thinking an egg+sperm (zygote) is not a baby. But the problem with abortion is that the maximum time (23/24weeks?) the baby has formed and can live (fair enough with medical support) outside the body and in the world. The heart starts to beat at 3weeks!! Yet ppl would say end of life is stopping the heart, so why not accept that starting the heart is the start of life and that baby is alive! So where by YOUR definition does the fetus turn into a baby?

please see post #36

Abortion is used as birth control by irresponsible women and it is these I have a problem with (not including those as a result of rape etc) but the difference is the people who were raped etc terminate almost straight away. I dont agree with people who hang around for months until the baby is def formed and is def a baby and then terminates just because they are going to college/have a new job/ dont want a child - what do you think protection is for!!!!?

That is just it though.
it is not a 'baby' until after birth.
before birth it is a fetus.

Sanctity of life means we are not allowed to terminate a human life, unless our own lives are threatened, as in the circumstances of war, and even then we can make the choice to be killed instead of killing another human soul...

If everything that ever lived is dead and everything that is alive is going to die, where does the sacred part come in?

Look at it logically, and tell me, can a human body have life without a human spirit in it? If you study the human spirit, you will know that when a human spirit leaves it's body, it can do nothing but what it's automated systems perform on a daily basis, breathing, heart beat, digestion, etc. It cannot move it's extrmeities, open it's eyes, talk, etc...

Define what you mean by spirit.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I understand that the correct term is either miscarriage or abortion, but I did not want to use either of those terms because they tend to elicit emotion reactions do to the fact that most people limit the definitions to the political ones used most often.


please see post #36


That is just it though.
it is not a 'baby' until after birth.
before birth it is a fetus.


If everything that ever lived is dead and everything that is alive is going to die, where does the sacred part come in?


Define what you mean by spirit.

You cant use menstrual cycle though - that is not the correct term! If it was a proper/real menstrual cycle - the woman wouldnt be pregnant!
Why is it not a baby til after birth. It has hands, feet, brain, nervous system, heart beat, eyes, ears, mouth, it feeds, listens, kicks, as motor neurons active, it can even learn! So what happens in the birth itself - that makes it officially a baby! nothing! Because it already is one. Otherwise, if a baby was born premature it wouldnt be able to survive! There is no difference between injecting the baby inside the womb with deadly chemicals and injecting it with the same chemicals outside of the womb - it will have the same effect. So perhaps we should extend the abortion to even after a birth? after all there is no difference between a full term unborn child and a child which is only a few sec old (other than the few secs of course!). Try watching the programmes where they show you the child inside the womb (a fully developed baby I mean) and then tell me it is not a child.

 

[FFH]

Define what you mean by spirit.

Refined immortal matter, of which our bodies were patterned after, which gives our non automated parts of our bodies life, such as our extremities, eyes, mouth, etc.

Without our spirits we would not be able to make our bodies talk or walk, for instance, they would just be limp breathing living organic objects...

 

[Gentoo]

...and its a miscarriage it isnt a menstrual cycle. The menstrual cycle ceases when the egg becomes fertilised. The mentsrual cycle is the clearance of the unfertilised egg. Or it could be because the person is on the pill which has failed to stop fertilisation.

Not true.

The woman's body isn't going to know that there is a fertilized egg in the uterus Until it attaches to the lining and gives off the pregnancy hormone. Without attachment, there is no pregnancy hormone, therefore is no pregnancy, regardless of the egg being fertilized or not.

A miscarriage is when the fertilized egg is attached to the uterus yet is not vaible for life and therefore is terminated naturally.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Not true.

The woman's body isn't going to know that there is a fertilized egg in the uterus Until it attaches to the lining and gives off the pregnancy hormone. Without attachment, there is no pregnancy hormone, therefore is no pregnancy, regardless of the egg being fertilized or not.

A miscarriage is when the fertilized egg is attached to the uterus yet is not vaible for life and therefore is terminated naturally.

The menstrual cycle is the unfertilised egg. Unless on the pill - but they say that is a "fake" menstrual cycle! We do actually agree!

 

[Jaymes]

I dont agree with people who hang around for months until the baby is def formed and is def a baby and then terminates just because they are going to college/have a new job/ dont want a child - what do you think protection is for!!!!?

You should take a look at the statistics on when abortions are given in terms of months of pregnancy. You'll find that such cases are extremely few in number. Almost all happen within the first 12 weeks, and more than half occur in the first 8 weeks.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

You should take a look at the statistics on when abortions are given in terms of months of pregnancy. You'll find that such cases are extremely few in number. Almost all happen within the first 12 weeks, and more than half occur in the first 8 weeks.

Still - why does it take 8weeks? Thats a long time! The heart starts to beat at 3weeks! They either want the child or they dont. Ok I understand some women dont know they are pregnant sort of -although there are tell tail signs. But they must know if they wanted a baby or its possible to have a baby - for instance they make a mistake and dont use protection - there is the after morning pill?.... I dont understand the need to wait so long in deciding whether to have an abortion. When there are condoms/the pill to prevent them getting pregnant or the after morning pill to prevent them from getting pregnant. So for those who know they dont want a child and know - there is no reason to even have to have the choice of an abortion - nevermind leaving it til 8weeks!

(Excluding rapes etc)

 

[Jaymes]

Still - why does it take 8weeks? Thats a long time! The heart starts to beat at 3weeks! They either want the child or they dont. Ok I understand some women dont know they are pregnant sort of -although there are tell tail signs. But they must know if they wanted a baby or its possible to have a baby - for instance they make a mistake and dont use protection - there is the after morning pill?.... I dont understand the need to wait so long in deciding whether to have an abortion. When there are condoms/the pill to prevent them getting pregnant or the after morning pill to prevent them from getting pregnant. So for those who know they dont want a child and know - there is no reason to even have to have the choice of an abortion - nevermind leaving it til 8weeks!

(Excluding rapes etc)

My friend tried to get an abortion at around 4 or 5 weeks. Because the clinic gave her the run-around, she didn't end up getting an abortion until close to 8 weeks.

I'm not sure that this is the norm, but it does happen. Especially if the only abortion clinic in your area is two hours away... not everyone has the time or money to run down there every day or any time they wish, and scheduling can be a problem.

Not to mention that not every has what would be considered a "regular" cycle. Some people don't even realize they're not pregnant until they're a month or two pregnant. Not because they were careless with tracking their cycle, but because it just wouldn't be abnormal for them to skip or be very late on a period.

And the morning after pill is only something to keep in mind if you know your protection has failed. What about women on the pill who, for whatever reason, had it fail on them? They have no reason to think that they should run out and take a morning after pill until they find themselves pregnant, and then it's too late to take it.

Simply put, this situation is not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

My friend tried to get an abortion at around 4 or 5 weeks. Because the clinic gave her the run-around, she didn't end up getting an abortion until close to 8 weeks.

I'm not sure that this is the norm, but it does happen. Especially if the only abortion clinic in your area is two hours away... not everyone has the time or money to run down there every day or any time they wish, and scheduling can be a problem.

Not to mention that not every has what would be considered a "regular" cycle. Some people don't even realize they're not pregnant until they're a month or two pregnant. Not because they were careless with tracking their cycle, but because it just wouldn't be abnormal for them to skip or be very late on a period.

And the morning after pill is only something to keep in mind if you know your protection has failed. What about women on the pill who, for whatever reason, had it fail on them? They have no reason to think that they should run out and take a morning after pill until they find themselves pregnant, and then it's too late to take it.

Simply put, this situation is not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be.

Im not saying it is black and white! If you read the link I posted a while back from another thread - I state that I am torn on the subject of abortion. What I completely disagree with is people who are irresponsible and then have an abortion whever it suits them just because they want to go to college etc. I know a lot of people who have done it.

There is also adoption to consider - obviously like a story I heard on the tv when they were debating this a 12yr old child who had been raped by her father - a pregnancy would prob emotionally kill her so would not be a good idea to carry through with the pregnancy.

Thats the sad thing with abortion its not black and white - but I do feel like women use it as birth control! and do it too late when there is no need!

 

[Ðanisty]

I can understand people thinking an egg+sperm (zygote) is not a baby. But the problem with abortion is that the maximum time (23/24weeks?) the baby has formed and can live (fair enough with medical support) outside the body and in the world. The heart starts to beat at 3weeks!! Yet ppl would say end of life is stopping the heart, so why not accept that starting the heart is the start of life and that baby is alive! So where by YOUR definition does the fetus turn into a baby?

I think you'll find that a lot of people will acknowledge that the fetus is alive. I don't deny that. I don't even deny that it is human because it is human tissue. Simply being alive and being human doesn't make tissue a person. After all, cancer is living human tissue.

Abortion is used as birth control by irresponsible women and it is these I have a problem with (not including those as a result of rape etc) but the difference is the people who were raped etc terminate almost straight away. I dont agree with people who hang around for months until the baby is def formed and is def a baby and then terminates just because they are going to college/have a new job/ dont want a child - what do you think protection is for!!!!?

See the thing is though, hardly any of the women having abortions were having unprotected sex. Protection isn't 100%. Hell, sterlization isn't even 100%. You make it out as if all these women are just being careless or not even trying and that's just not the case most times.

Still - why does it take 8weeks? Thats a long time! The heart starts to beat at 3weeks! They either want the child or they dont. Ok I understand some women dont know they are pregnant sort of -although there are tell tail signs. But they must know if they wanted a baby or its possible to have a baby - for instance they make a mistake and dont use protection - there is the after morning pill?.... I dont understand the need to wait so long in deciding whether to have an abortion. When there are condoms/the pill to prevent them getting pregnant or the after morning pill to prevent them from getting pregnant. So for those who know they dont want a child and know - there is no reason to even have to have the choice of an abortion - nevermind leaving it til 8weeks!

(Excluding rapes etc)

Well considering that even a normal, average menstrual cycle is 28 days, I don't see any reason to think that people should suspect anything before a month us up anyway. What reason would anyone have to even try a pregnancy test before they've missed a period?