20 Signs that God exist, and Quraan is the word of God

[AmbiguousGuy]

very few. It is not something to go open about in my society.

Maybe as you go through life, you'll have the opportunity to meet some gays. I hope so. Walk a mile in their shoes. Walk a mile in everyone's shoes, every chance you get.

What do you mean by childhood? What age?

I've seen young boys who seemed so effeminate to me that I assumed they would grow up to be gay. My main experience with young gays was in college, when I was around a lot of them and able to observe a bit. I've read many stories of young boys whose parents knew they were gay before the child hit puberty.

Still if that was the case, that doesn't make it natural. Most probably you will find these had family problems and saw violence in the house.

Really, you don't know what you are talking about. May I suggest that you reserve your certainty about things until you've had a bit more experience with those things? You say lots of stuff here in your messages which is simply untrue.

Don't let your Quranic/Muslim Truth overwhelm the truth which you can observe out in the world. That will lead to terrible confusion. As with evolution, for example. If you believe that evolution is untrue -- because you think that's what your Perfect Book says -- then you will be unable to process information which comes directly to your eyes and ears as you go about life.

Same with gays. Observe them. Then try to understand how your observations fit with Quranic verses.

 

[Ingledsva]

*Pound hard enough and they'll accept...*

(only they don't)

Look, I'm no apologist for the Qur'an or any other religious book, but I don't pretend to know something I clearly don't. You have people fluent in Arabic telling you what the verses mean, and you still persist that you know better.

I don't wish to engage in what could be a fruitful debate with people who just come to argue, yell, and stomp their feet.

Peace, and have a good day.

And again - that is disingenuous.


I used HIS source, - which he was trying to use against me, - which had the Arabic. LOL!

As to the other text, I looked up multiple Arabic translations - which is why I could post those translations - LOL!


I even used his preferred translation against him! LOL!



PS. As to the "pounding" - that is what you folks are doing.


You just don't like having to deal with my rebuttal.



*

 

[beenie]

And again - that is disingenuous.


I used HIS source, - which he was trying to use against me, - which had the Arabic. LOL!

As to the other text, I looked up multiple Arabic translations - which is why I could post those translations - LOL!


I even used his preferred translation against him! LOL!



*

What's disingenuous? Your LOL's are distracting.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You can't make any fair judgement while you are ignorant in the Arabic language

The verse in Arabic

is the plural for

Look up for the meaning of the word

which means to take over,so if the disbelievers took over you then you have to fight them,other translations are wrong.

The verb in question can be transitive or intransitive, which also changes its meaning. When it is transitive, it means "to assume [a position of authority, control, etc.]," but when it is intransitive--which is the case in the verse--it means "to turn away or abstain [from something]."

The verse talks about "hypocrites who pretended to be Muslims." Some Muslims defended them and thought they were among their ranks, but the verses basically dictated that they were indeed hypocrites and that no one should defend them, and then Muslims were instructed in the verse to kill them if they refused to accept Islam and join the ranks of Muslims. This is also the interpretation given in authoritative tafseer books.

If you want to check out the different meanings of the verb, here is a good page containing them:

ترجمة و معنى كلمة تولى في قاموس المعاني. قاموس عربي انجليزي مصطلحات صفحة 1

 

[Ingledsva]

What's disingenuous? Your LOL's are distracting.

Deciding that if I'm not fluent in Arabic, I can't rebut what they are saying.


I think it should be apparent by now that I know how to research a subject.



I have repeated multiple times, that I studied Comparative Religions in college.



*

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

that is the way I see it. It may be wrong but I believe that no one is born homosexual. It is not something that one can prove I think.

The American Psychological Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Medical Association, The American Psychoanalytic Association, and The American Academy of Pediatrics all beg to differ, and I'm sure they know a little more about human sexuality than a bunch of bronze-age, scientifically illiterate, Arabic goat-herders that thought that the Earth was flat, and that promiscuous women cause earthquakes.

 

[beenie]

The verb in question can be transitive or intransitive, which also changes its meaning. When it is transitive, it means "to assume [a position of authority, control, etc.]," but when it is intransitive--which is the case in the verse--it means "to turn away or abstain [from something]."

The verse talks about "hypocrites who pretended to be Muslims." Some Muslims defended them and thought they were among their ranks, but the verses basically dictated that they were indeed hypocrites and that no one should defend them, and then Muslims were instructed in the verse to kill them if they refused to accept Islam and join the ranks of Muslims. This is also the interpretation given in authoritative tafseer books.

If you want to check out the different meanings of the verb, here is a good page containing them:

ترجمة Ùˆ معنى كلمة تولى في قاموس المعاني. قاموس عربي انجليزي مصطلØ*ات صفØ*Ø© 1

GAME.SET.MATCH

Sorry, no one is gonna top this.

 

[beenie]

Deciding that if I'm not fluent in Arabic, I can't rebut what they are saying.
I think it should be apparent by now that I know how to research a subject.
I have repeated multiple times, that I studied Comparative Religions in college.
*

I studied Comparative Religions in college too, and discovered that about 50% of what I learned was biased horse poop.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sahih International translation.

4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].


4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.


Obviously apostates whom once believed - and have "fallen back/turned away" into disbelief.


How would the Allah's followers be - ALIKE - if they disbelieve as "wished" by the others, - if the others are not originally Allah's followers who once believed, and are now fallen back/turned away disbelievers - apostate?

*

 

[beenie]

Sahih International translation.

4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].


4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.


Obviously apostates whom once believed - and have "fallen back/turned away" into disbelief.


How would the Allah's followers be - ALIKE - if they disbelieve as "wished" by the others, - if the others are not originally Allah's followers who once believed, and are now fallen back/turned away disbelievers - apostate?

*

Did you read Debater Slayer's post at all or are you going to just keep posting the same argument over and over again? He is not only fluent in Arabic, but is very particular about grammar.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sahih International translation.

4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].


4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.


Obviously apostates whom once believed - and have "fallen back/turned away" into disbelief.


How would the Allah's followers be - ALIKE - if they disbelieve as "wished" by the others, - if the others are not originally Allah's followers who once believed, and are now fallen back/turned away disbelievers - apostate?

*

Can we cut down on caps lock usage, please?

In the context of the verse, the meaning of "so you would be alike" is that the hypocrites wished the Muslims would have disbelieved so that they would be like the hypocrites--that is, to be disbelievers as well. The common quality between the two groups in that scenario, then, would have been disbelief rather than a previous state of belief. That's what "so you would be alike" means.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sahih International translation.

4:88 What is [the matter] with you [that you are] two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has made them fall back [into error and disbelief] for what they earned. Do you wish to guide those whom Allah has sent astray? And he whom Allah sends astray - never will you find for him a way [of guidance].


4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.


Obviously apostates whom once believed - and have "fallen back/turned away" into disbelief.


How would the Allah's followers be - ALIKE - if they disbelieve as "wished" by the others, - if the others are not originally Allah's followers who once believed, and are now fallen back/turned away disbelievers - apostate?

Did you read Debater Slayer's post at all or are you going to just keep posting the same argument over and over again? He is not only fluent in Arabic, but is very particular about grammar.

And he used the same words.


The above is from an Islamic site.


*

 

[beenie]

DS did not use the same words. Read it again, slowly.

 

[Ingledsva]

Can we cut down on caps lock usage, please?

In the context of the verse, the meaning of "so you would be alike" is that the hypocrites wished the Muslims would have disbelieved so that they would be like the hypocrites--that is, to be disbelievers as well. The common quality between the two groups in that scenario, then, would have been disbelief rather than a previous state of belief. That's what "so you would be alike" means.

I don't agree, but that is obvious.


What caps lock usage? I highlighted text I wanted to point out.



*

 

[cocokorina]

You are mixing up things here.

Who told you that prophet Mohammed isn't important,isn't the quran God's message through prophet Mohammed and in which we have to announce him as the messenger of God.

Talking about praying,it isn't of your business how i pray or how i want to pray,i am free for the way i want to pray and it isn't of your business if i want to pray in the mosque or in home or while walking or while sleeping.

You are always repeating do you know Sunna,are you Sunna,should i alway repeat it to you that i am Muslim and nothing else,OMG,:areyoucra

how can you call yourself muslim if you're ignoring teachings of prophet mohammad? very strange that you are dismissing all his sayings. you pray from your heart, and you dont follow the way muslims are taught how to pray. thats what I find very strange. Never heard a muslim not following the proper salaat guidelines. do you do wudu/purification with water before praying?
it's none of my business how you pray but YOU are the one who mentioned you dont take any hadith seriously. so i just wnat to see if you really ignore all hadith or just the ones that make you feel 'uncomfortable'.

 

[FearGod]

The verb in question can be transitive or intransitive, which also changes its meaning. When it is transitive, it means "to assume [a position of authority, control, etc.]," but when it is intransitive--which is the case in the verse--it means "to turn away or abstain [from something]."

The verse talks about "hypocrites who pretended to be Muslims." Some Muslims defended them and thought they were among their ranks, but the verses basically dictated that they were indeed hypocrites and that no one should defend them, and then Muslims were instructed in the verse to kill them if they refused to accept Islam and join the ranks of Muslims. This is also the interpretation given in authoritative tafseer books.

If you want to check out the different meanings of the verb, here is a good page containing them:

ترجمة و معنى كلمة تولى في قاموس المعاني. قاموس عربي انجليزي مصطلØ*ات صفØ*Ø© 1

The meaning depends on the context and not what kind of verb it is,some words and verbs can have more than one meaning and the only way to know the actual meaning is by context,anyway the next verse explain it better.

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. (4:90)

As you see the next verse explain it much better and which is about who has to have the power and control,God wanted the power to be for Muslims and God also can make the power to be for the disbelievers if he wishes so.

 

[FearGod]

how can you call yourself muslim if you're ignoring teachings of prophet mohammad? very strange that you are dismissing all his sayings. you pray from your heart, and you dont follow the way muslims are taught how to pray. thats what I find very strange. Never heard a muslim not following the proper salaat guidelines. do you do wudu/purification with water before praying?
it's none of my business how you pray but YOU are the one who mentioned you dont take any hadith seriously. so i just wnat to see if you really ignore all hadith or just the ones that make you feel 'uncomfortable'.

I call myself Muslim because i submitted and surrendered myself to the creator.

I affirm my faith in Allah, His angels, His Books, His meeting, His Apostles, and i believe in Resurrection and i believe in Qadr (Divine Decree)

You don't know even what Muslim means,we don't pray to Muhammed or Muslims to him but to the creator.

Now what Hadith i want to accept or which Hadith i want to refuse is simply not of your own business.

How i want to pray,or if i don't want to pray is also not of your own business.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The meaning depends on the context and not what kind of verb it is,some words and verbs can have more than one meaning and the only way to know the actual meaning is by context,anyway the next verse explain it better.

Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them. (4:90)

As you see the next verse explain it much better and which is about who has to have the power and control,God wanted the power to be for Muslims and God also can make the power to be for the disbelievers if he wishes so.

The verb you highlighted in 4:90 is different from تولوا, though, so its meaning doesn't change what the previous verse says. 4:89 talks about hypocrites who had ill will toward Muslims, but 4:90 talks about a different group of disbelievers: those who take refuge with Muslims and don't seek to fight them. The dameer mutasel ("attached pronoun") affixed to the verb سلّط in the above verse is هم, and in Arabic, attached pronouns of this kind usually refer to the noun specifying a person or people that is closest to the pronoun in the sentence. So, for an approximate example from English, consider the concept of antecedence and pronoun reference in relation to these sentences:

"I like apples. They are tasty."

The they pronoun clearly refers to apples, since they're the noun that comes right before it in the sentence. However, consider this sentence:

"This shop has a nice T-shirt. I like it."

If you change the two above sentences into just one sentence using a relative pronoun, it'll look like this:

"This shop has a nice T-shirt, which I like."

The which pronoun refers to the noun closest to it, i.e., "T-shirt," rather than "shop." There can be some ambiguity in sentences like this where a pronoun may fit more than one noun and therefore possibly refer to it, but the verse is very clear because the noun referring to the group of disbelievers in question—the ones who took refuge among Muslims—is close to the pronoun that refers to it in the sentence.

So, the two verses are talking about different sets of disbelievers rather than just one, and that's why I think it's incorrect to say that 4:89 talks about disbelievers who "ruled over Muslims" and not disbelievers who were "hypocrites" in addition to being hostile toward Muslims.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't agree, but that is obvious.


What caps lock usage? I highlighted text I wanted to point out.



*

What is your disagreement based on, then? Do you know Arabic well enough to conclude that your understanding is absolutely correct, or have you at least read any authoritative tafseer books in Arabic that support your conclusion?

 

[FearGod]

The verb you highlighted in 4:90 is different from تولوا, though, so its meaning doesn't change what the previous verse says. 4:89 talks about hypocrites who had ill will toward Muslims, but 4:90 talks about a different group of disbelievers: those who take refuge with Muslims and don't seek to fight them. The dameer mutasel ("attached pronoun") affixed to the verb سلّط in the above verse is هم, and in Arabic, attached pronouns of this kind usually refer to the noun specifying a person or people that is closest to the pronoun in the sentence. So, for an approximate example from English, consider the concept of antecedence and pronoun reference in relation to these sentences:

"I like apples. They are tasty."

The they pronoun clearly refers to apples, since they're the noun that comes right before it in the sentence. However, consider this sentence:

"This shop has a nice T-shirt. I like it."

If you change the two above sentences into just one sentence using a relative pronoun, it'll look like this:

"This shop has a nice T-shirt, which I like."

The which pronoun refers to the noun closest to it, i.e., "T-shirt," rather than "shop." There can be some ambiguity in sentences like this where a pronoun may fit more than one noun and therefore possibly refer to it, but the verse is very clear because the noun referring to the group of disbelievers in question—the ones who took refuge among Muslims—is close to the pronoun that refers to it in the sentence.

So, the two verses are talking about different sets of disbelievers rather than just one, and that's why I think it's incorrect to say that 4:89 talks about disbelievers who "ruled over Muslims" and not disbelievers who were "hypocrites" in addition to being hostile toward Muslims.

Yes of course,the next verse (4:90) is talking about the peaceful disbelievers, those who don't fight to posses the power over Muslims which is الولايه ,so it is about the Islamic rule that should prevail at that specific time and that was God's plan for Muslims to control the land and that is the reason that God says that if he wishes then he'll give the power for the disbelievers as in our recent days and which also was prophesied by the prophet to happen.