40 Examples of Christian Privilege

[Quiddity]

You can add me to the list Scott. This "observation" would not have been made about African Americans, Jews, women, etc because they do not hold positions of privilege in this country. That is the point.

And pah, surely you know by now that people of privilege very rarely recognize that they hold that privilege, even when it's pointed out.

Please lilithu, tell me how I hold this privilege?

~Victor

 

[lilithu]

I beg to differ. I'm thanful that i'm a white male whose often assumed to be a christian. I doubt my ability to be half as resiliant to the crap that i'd be subject to on this continent with any deviation of one of those variables.

Good for you. How is this relevant to what I wrote?

I don't think pah's list damns christians as individuals, but speaks volumes of the environment of so-called "religious tolerance"; that is, tolerance of other christians.

I don't think that pah's list damns christians either, not as individuals and not as a group. First of all, pah wouldn't do that. Secondly, if by chance he did I would not agree with him.

I see pah's post as pointing out some of the privileges that Christians enjoy by their virtue of being the majority in this society. If we lived in a society where Hinduism was the dominant religion, then the list would be about Hindus. The point is that people who live with privilege rarely recognize it. It's not because there's something wrong with them. It's just that they usually do not have to experience what it's like to be the minority.

 

[Kowalski]

I can't agree with that. Those with privileges are only too well of that fact, and will do anything to protect those privileges, as indeed any group would, it's human nature and called one-upmanship.

Cheers

K

 

[Radar]

Ah,the men of priviledge speak! Who? me??

I think, Scott, the list was mild. I would have added the privilege of thinking that men and organizations of the cloth can dicatate secular law - thinking that sacrement can be used as a weapon to force secular representative voting - thinking that charity deserves a tax break when articles of faith command charity - thinking that "services" have a right to be freely or at discounted rates placed in newspapers - thinking that when national religious holidays are secularized, a hue and cry is justified - taking for granted that this nation is a Christian nation - thinking that arrogant charges of heresy are justified in a free secular environment - thinking it is okay to inject Christian religious thought into public school curriculm. - thinking it is okay to play in secular political games for a religious moral principle.

Christianity has always enjoyed special privilege and it fits right in with the white, American, wealthy male privileges. It is time to frame the public square debate as "keeping privilege" instead of feeling persecuted.

I guess, Victor, that is my point and the list was only an intoduction.

Good post :clap

 

[Radar]

You can add me to the list Scott. This "observation" would not have been made about African Americans, Jews, women, etc because they do not hold positions of privilege in this country. That is the point.

And pah, surely you know by now that people of privilege very rarely recognize that they hold that privilege, even when it's pointed out.

Good post :clap

 

[Quiddity]

Please lilithu, tell me how I hold this privilege?

~Victor

~Victor

 

[mr.guy]

Good for you. How is this relevant to what I wrote?

For all effects and purposes, I am among the priviledged. I'm claiming (be it dim, and apologistic) awareness of this.

I don't think that pah's list damns christians either, not as individuals and not as a group.

I agree. but as Seyorni has said, christianity is our reigning cultural backdrop. Chromatically, anyone not on the base palette is most easily isolated. My gratitude goes only as far as the ability to blend in (be it mistakenly), for the scrunity i could anticipate would be most unsettling.

 

[mr.guy]

I can't agree with that. Those with privileges are only too well of that fact, and will do anything to protect those privileges, as indeed any group would, it's human nature and called one-upmanship.

Oh dear. I spent five minutes paceing around agreeing with this. Not that i think it's totally wrong, but at the very least i hope my well known bias robs kowalski of credibility; my own opinion on such matters being worth no more than your average conspirecy theorist. I think this is getting a needlessly nasty. Sorry all.

 

[lilithu]

Please lilithu, tell me how I hold this privilege?

~Victor

Victor, in all honesty, I think pah's list points out some of the ways you hold this privilege. I understand how it's easy to get defensive. I understand that there is a lot of Christian-bashing in this society. But try to set that asside for a moment and imagine what it would be like to live in this society as a Jew, for example. Imagine that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior. In fact, you think that idea goes directly against your view of God as transcendant and unknowable. (Just imagine that you believe this is true.)

Now imagine that come December, everyone wishes you a Merry Christmas and expects you to do the same, even tho the birthday of this man means nothing to you. The stores and tv shows are full of Christmas images. No one has to remind people that Christmas is coming up. You automatically get Christmas as a day off even tho you do not celebrate it. But right now in early October, at your holiest time of the year as a Jew, there's barely any mention of it. Your coworkers don't say anything to you. You have to remind them that it's your holiest day if you want them to know. If you want time off to observe Yom Kippur, you have to actually ask for it, making other people think that you're asking for additional time off.

As a Jew, your holy day is friday evening to Saturday evening. Following the commandments that Moses gave you, you do not do any work at that time. That includes not buying groceries, going to home deopt for fixit jobs, etc. Given that you work mon-fri, that leaves only Sunday for you to do these things. Yet a lot of stores close on Sundays, or they open later and close earlier. Not too long ago, there were even laws that prohibited stores from being open on Sundays. When a Jewish businessman sued on account that it unfairly penalized him to have to be closed on both Sat (for his religion) and Sun (for the law), the Supreme Court actually said, "too bad."

Those are just two examples. There are many more and similar considerations exist for members of other faiths.

Victor I hope you trust that I am not saying this out of anger or bitterness towards Christian dominance. As a UU, I am quite comfortable celebrating Christmas and Easter and attending church on Sundays. But since there are Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists and pagans in my congregation, I know what they go thru, even in our congregation which makes a point to be open and welcoming of diverse faiths.

Again, no one is accusing you of any wrongdoing. I think pah's post was initially simply intended to raise awareness of these privileges. When you and Scott reacted defensively (and I totally understand why you did) pah reacted to your reaction and I probably did not help things here because my first reaction was "here we go again."

Thank you for asking sincerely.

 

[lilithu]

For all effects and purposes, I am among the priviledged. I'm claiming (be it dim, and apologistic) awareness of this.

Dude, I said "rarely." I am well aware that not all people who hold privilege are unable to recognize that they hold it. In my circles, I am surrounded by people who recognize their own privilege and are apologetic about it. (I call it "liberal white guilt". I want people to recognize their privilege but I see no need for apologies.) As an overeducated Asian female I have my own share of privilege. And pah himself as a white male is evidence of this awareness.

My comment to pah was an expression of frustration at both "sides." Then again, I did not help matters with that comment.

 

[Pah]

....And pah, surely you know by now that people of privilege very rarely recognize that they hold that privilege, even when it's pointed out.

Yes, I expected that argument. "Life as it's always been" leads the privileged to a denial. I was not disappointed

 

[Mr Spinkles]

As far as Christianity being dominant in America, and as far as any religious group that is in the majority has some degree of "privilege", I agree...

...but apart from that, I really don't see the point of this thread. It would be one thing if direct anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu, anti-whatever prejudice was widespread...but it isn't. Let's see here....non-Christians are "unprivileged" because:

1) Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them
2) TV and stores are full of Christmas images
3) You get Christmas day off at work
4) You have to request to get your religious days off

I'm sorry, but if you're non-Christian and you are bothered by these things, you are the one with the problem, not Christians. Hell, lots of people who aren't even Christians celebrate Christmas. And who would object to having a day off? If it really bothers you, just work on Christmas day anyway--I doubt your employer would mind. And what's so horrible about requesting a day off for Yom Kippur? Two people in my history class told the professor in front of the rest of the class that they wouldn't be in class tomorrow because of Yom Kippur....our professor made special arrangements to make sure they got the material. It didn't seem to be a problem.

Obviously minority rights need to be protected. But if you're offended because people wish you Merry Christmas, even though you don't celebrate it, that's just too bad. You can't expect the culture at large to affirm your beliefs, your choices, the way you dress, etc. It's called self-reliance.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, in all honesty, I think pah's list points out some of the ways you hold this privilege. I understand how it's easy to get defensive. I understand that there is a lot of Christian-bashing in this society. But try to set that asside for a moment and imagine what it would be like to live in this society as a Jew, for example. Imagine that you do not believe that Jesus Christ is your lord and savior. In fact, you think that idea goes directly against your view of God as transcendant and unknowable. (Just imagine that you believe this is true.)

Now imagine that come December, everyone wishes you a Merry Christmas and expects you to do the same, even tho the birthday of this man means nothing to you. The stores and tv shows are full of Christmas images. No one has to remind people that Christmas is coming up. You automatically get Christmas as a day off even tho you do not celebrate it. But right now in early October, at your holiest time of the year as a Jew, there's barely any mention of it. Your coworkers don't say anything to you. You have to remind them that it's your holiest day if you want them to know. If you want time off to observe Yom Kippur, you have to actually ask for it, making other people think that you're asking for additional time off.

As a Jew, your holy day is friday evening to Saturday evening. Following the commandments that Moses gave you, you do not do any work at that time. That includes not buying groceries, going to home deopt for fixit jobs, etc. Given that you work mon-fri, that leaves only Sunday for you to do these things. Yet a lot of stores close on Sundays, or they open later and close earlier. Not too long ago, there were even laws that prohibited stores from being open on Sundays. When a Jewish businessman sued on account that it unfairly penalized him to have to be closed on both Sat (for his religion) and Sun (for the law), the Supreme Court actually said, "too bad."

Those are just two examples. There are many more and similar considerations exist for members of other faiths.

Victor I hope you trust that I am not saying this out of anger or bitterness towards Christian dominance. As a UU, I am quite comfortable celebrating Christmas and Easter and attending church on Sundays. But since there are Jews and Hindus and Buddhists and atheists and pagans in my congregation, I know what they go thru, even in our congregation which makes a point to be open and welcoming of diverse faiths.

Again, no one is accusing you of any wrongdoing. I think pah's post was initially simply intended to raise awareness of these privileges. When you and Scott reacted defensively (and I totally understand why you did) pah reacted to your reaction and I probably did not help things here because my first reaction was "here we go again."

Thank you for asking sincerely.

Lilithu, I understand what you mean and thank you for your polite post. Perhaps it is my failure of seeing Buddhists, pagans, atheists, being persecuted in white America. I can’t tell you how many times I see people at work chuckle over some joke they made about Christians. But if anything else other then that is brought up, it’s straight to the Human Resources Department. I’m sorry if I don’t share your view but I don’t feel privileged one bit and don’t expect too. So when I hear Pah say that about me I couldn’t help it. But yet, saying “merry Christmas” is worse? I don’t get it.



~Victor

 

[Quiddity]

As far as Christianity being dominant in America, and as far as any religious group that is in the majority has some degree of "privilege", I agree...

...but apart from that, I really don't see the point of this thread. It would be one thing if direct anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu, anti-whatever prejudice was widespread...but it isn't. Let's see here....non-Christians are "unprivileged" because:

1) Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them
2) TV and stores are full of Christmas images
3) You get Christmas day off at work
4) You have to request to get your religious days off

I'm sorry, but if you're non-Christian and you are bothered by these things, you are the one with the problem, not Christians. Hell, lots of people who aren't even Christians celebrate Christmas. And who would object to having a day off? If it really bothers you, just work on Christmas day anyway--I doubt your employer would mind. And what's so horrible about requesting a day off for Yom Kippur? Two people in my history class told the professor in front of the rest of the class that they wouldn't be in class tomorrow because of Yom Kippur....our professor made special arrangements to make sure they got the material. It didn't seem to be a problem.

Obviously minority rights need to be protected. But if you're offended because people wish you Merry Christmas, even though you don't celebrate it, that's just too bad. You can't expect the culture at large to affirm your beliefs, your choices, the way you dress, etc. It's called self-reliance.

Exactly!!!!

~Victor

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I think that one of the odd things about us humans is that it's only natural for us to be more aware of the 'persecution' of our own groups. (I only say put it that way because the persecution in the U.S. of various religions does not usually involve torture or killing.) For example, I wound up feeling envious of the woman at my work who wore a lovely wooden cross only because I knew I wouldn't be able to wear a symbol of my faith in the same way. On the other hand, since I was a Chistian, I am still very aware of when people try to put down or make jokes about that faith, and if I'm in a position to do so, I try to stop it.

This thread is making me cry, since I see so many people I love at odds with each other.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Lilithu, I understand what you mean and thank you for your polite post. Perhaps it is my failure of seeing Buddhists, pagans, atheists, being persecuted in white America. I can’t tell you how many times I see people at work chuckle over some joke they made about Christians. But if anything else other then that is brought up, it’s straight to the Human Resources Department. I’m sorry if I don’t share your view but I don’t feel privileged one bit and don’t expect too. So when I hear Pah say that about me I couldn’t help it. But yet, saying “merry Christmas” is worse? I don’t get it.



~Victor

Good counterpoint Victor.

I work and interact with people of all religions. It does seem that only Christians are expected to go around kissing everyone else's heiny while this kind of respect is not often returned. Can we be sure that if the tables are turned that there wouldn't be covert discrimination against Christians? I rather doubt it because of my vast experience in the real world. I would argue that if any other religious group had gotten here first and set up shop that it would be them on the hot seat. This is truly human nature and the we were here first argument is used by everyone, not just Christians.

 

[Bennettresearch]

I think that one of the odd things about us humans is that it's only natural for us to be more aware of the 'persecution' of our own groups. (I only say put it that way because the persecution in the U.S. of various religions does not usually involve torture or killing.) For example, I wound up feeling envious of the woman at my work who wore a lovely wooden cross only because I knew I wouldn't be able to wear a symbol of my faith in the same way. On the other hand, since I was a Chistian, I am still very aware of when people try to put down or make jokes about that faith, and if I'm in a position to do so, I try to stop it.

This thread is making me cry, since I see so many people I love at odds with each other.

Hi Feathers,

I think that what is important here is to define "persecution". I don't know what it is like where other people live, but in my state it wouldn't be possible. I think that it is being substituted for the subtle kinds of discrimination that everyone, and this means everyone, practices at some time in their lives. Vandals who go around and commit actual acts like burning crosses or defacing mosques, etc, are quickly dealt with by the law and go to jail for it. This is not accepted or condoned by Christians. I will challenge anyone to show me where the Us is actually PERSECUTING anyone nowadays.

By the way, you could wear a pagan symbol where I work, if it was cool then everyone would want to look at it.

 

[Bennettresearch]

But try to set that asside for a moment and imagine what it would be like to live in this society as a Jew, for example.

But right now in early October, at your holiest time of the year as a Jew, there's barely any mention of it. Your coworkers don't say anything to you. You have to remind them that it's your holiest day if you want them to know. If you want time off to observe Yom Kippur, you have to actually ask for it, making other people think that you're asking for additional time off.

As a Jew, your holy day is friday evening to Saturday evening. Following the commandments that Moses gave you, you do not do any work at that time.

Hi Lil,

Just shortened your post a little. I am sorry but I have to disagree because of another thread by someone in this forum. They were asking if this forum could be shut down on saturdays so the others couldn't tempt them to sin on the sabbath. Huh? With all of this outcry about Christians we have someone else suggesting that this forum be closed to posts because of their religious observation on Saturdays. It wasn't really considered by those in power, but the fact that someone even suggested it is quite interesting.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Just as a heads-up, they weren't suggesting the whole forum be shut down.

 

[Pah]

Lilithu, I understand what you mean and thank you for your polite post. Perhaps it is my failure of seeing Buddhists, pagans, atheists, being persecuted in white America. I can’t tell you how many times I see people at work chuckle over some joke they made about Christians. But if anything else other then that is brought up, it’s straight to the Human Resources Department. I’m sorry if I don’t share your view but I don’t feel privileged one bit and don’t expect too. So when I hear Pah say that about me I couldn’t help it. But yet, saying “merry Christmas” is worse? I don’t get it.



~Victor

It is not so much that minorities are persecuted - though some do suffer from social bias - it is that it is not the "equality" that Christianity holds. Others are slighted.

Why don't we have national holidays for the Equinoxes? The difference in equality is that Christmas has special privilege and the other does not. Why is it that an Atheist will not be President? It is because an atheist does not get to sit at the table in the political "backroom". Privilege, in this case, is the unspoken, completely unconstitutional , subtle denial of access.

The debate today over the direction socitety is to go has, for one player, a hugely influencial Christian advocacy that demands the privilege of having it's moral thoughts instituted as law. When that demand is challanged we hear, quite often, "Christians are denied a place in the public square". That is a plea for being considered a victim, an object of persecution.

For the longest time, Christianity was the sole influence in the public square with the Temparence movement being the largest unequivicable driver to change American society to it's own image.

Faith has become a campaign litmus test for public office and largely at the urging of some Christians. I call that privilege with an aim of consolidation of privilege and power.

I would really like to know what it is, if not privilege in the above examples and the unanswered list from a previous post

the privilege of thinking that men and organizations of the cloth can dicatate secular law - thinking that sacrement can be used as a weapon to force secular representative voting - thinking that charity deserves a tax break when articles of faith command charity - thinking that "services" have a right to be freely or at discounted rates placed in newspapers - thinking that when national religious holidays are secularized, a hue and cry is justified - taking for granted that this nation is a Christian nation - thinking that arrogant charges of heresy are justified in a free secular environment - thinking it is okay to inject Christian religious thought into public school curriculm. - thinking it is okay to play in secular political games for a religious moral principle.

It really is time to correctly frame the social debate