40 Examples of Christian Privilege

[Kowalski]

Oh dear. I spent five minutes paceing around agreeing with this. Not that i think it's totally wrong, but at the very least i hope my well known bias robs kowalski of credibility; my own opinion on such matters being worth no more than your average conspirecy theorist. I think this is getting a needlessly nasty. Sorry all.

Are you for real Guy ?

K

 

[Scott1]

Shanti, Shanti, Shanti! (Peace, Peace, Peace!)

Good form.

There is no condemnation of any particular religion, just a sociological observation.

Sorry I didn't see it that way... if this forum can be used as an example, I would say that most of these "observations" about privilage are bunk.

The point is that people who live with privilege rarely recognize it.

I love ya, but give me a break... this list is not about "privilege", it is just a not-so-subtle way to Christian bash.

Privilege is getting jobs.... wealth.... status in society..... this list talks about unsubstantianed social nonesense.

Give me a wealth, power, and status and they can keep Santa Claus.... deal?

 

[mr.guy]

Privilege is getting jobs.... wealth.... status in society..... this list talks about unsubstantianed social nonesense.

Forgive me if i've got you wrong, but aren't all of these things generally reserved for white male christians?

 

[lilithu]

Doesn't damn us, maybe, but it's certainly meant to put us down, show us in a poor light, ridicule us... and the best part - since he's an Admin, he gets to post whatever hateful generalizations he wants. Hey, how about if I post a similar post about athiests... think that'll be allowed to stay? :149:

Actually, no worries.... that sort of childish hatefulness is not my style...

What hateful generalizations?? Saying that as a Christian you can be sure to get your holidays off is a hateful generalization? I ask you to read the list again and find where it puts you down, shows you in a bad light, or ridicules you. I'm not asking you this to pick a fight. Honestly, I do not see the hostility there. Perhaps it is a little overly blunt, but not hostile.

(I would however disagree with #6. I think there are some areas where you cannot have a pro-Christian bumper sticker without risking that it be defaced, unfortunately.)

Just shortened your post a little. I am sorry but I have to disagree because of another thread by someone in this forum. They were asking if this forum could be shut down on saturdays so the others couldn't tempt them to sin on the sabbath. Huh? With all of this outcry about Christians we have someone else suggesting that this forum be closed to posts because of their religious observation on Saturdays. It wasn't really considered by those in power, but the fact that someone even suggested it is quite interesting.

Bennettresearch, I don't see how the other thread disproves what I'm saying. It supports my assertion about not working on the sabbath. Other than that, the request you mention is a little silly given that RF stays open 24/7 and is therefore equally accessible to everyone; nor is it attempting to "tempt" any specific group.

Lilithu, I understand what you mean and thank you for your polite post. Perhaps it is my failure of seeing Buddhists, pagans, atheists, being persecuted in white America. I can’t tell you how many times I see people at work chuckle over some joke they made about Christians. But if anything else other then that is brought up, it’s straight to the Human Resources Department. I’m sorry if I don’t share your view but I don’t feel privileged one bit and don’t expect too. So when I hear Pah say that about me I couldn’t help it. But yet, saying “merry Christmas” is worse? I don’t get it.

Victor, no one has said that non-Christians are "persecuted." That implies some intentional malice on the part of Christians and no one is saying that. All I'm requesting is that you have some empathy for what it's like to live as a member of a minority faith in this society. Obviously, I would want non-Christians to extend empathy for Christians as well. I would object to any jokes that were hostile against Christians (or any other group).

But since you're the one I'm talking to, I'm asking you, not them. I guarantee you that if you show an interest in their faith traditions (assuming they're not atheists), it will be much harder for them to make anti-Christian remarks. And if you ask me why it is that you have to be the one to start, I'd say well that's the Christian thing to do, isn't it?

As far as Christianity being dominant in America, and as far as any religious group that is in the majority has some degree of "privilege", I agree...

...but apart from that, I really don't see the point of this thread. It would be one thing if direct anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu, anti-whatever prejudice was widespread...but it isn't. Let's see here....non-Christians are "unprivileged" because:

1) Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them
2) TV and stores are full of Christmas images
3) You get Christmas day off at work
4) You have to request to get your religious days off

I'm sorry, but if you're non-Christian and you are bothered by these things, you are the one with the problem, not Christians. Hell, lots of people who aren't even Christians celebrate Christmas. And who would object to having a day off? If it really bothers you, just work on Christmas day anyway--I doubt your employer would mind. And what's so horrible about requesting a day off for Yom Kippur? Two people in my history class told the professor in front of the rest of the class that they wouldn't be in class tomorrow because of Yom Kippur....our professor made special arrangements to make sure they got the material. It didn't seem to be a problem.

Obviously minority rights need to be protected. But if you're offended because people wish you Merry Christmas, even though you don't celebrate it, that's just too bad. You can't expect the culture at large to affirm your beliefs, your choices, the way you dress, etc. It's called self-reliance.

Spinks, I'm not offended by Christmas, and I doubt that pah is either. Nor am I talking about others being offended. Actually, I get quite annoyed when people voice offense at things like Christmas and have said so to them.

I was trying to point out some examples of privilege. That's all. As for the point of the thread, I won't pretend to read pah's mind but I know that when I talk about privilege it's with the intent to raise awareness. That said, you're list of privileges does not fully reflect the non-Christian experience. My point was not that non-Christians are offended that Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them. My point was to contrast that with not having their own high holy days recognized. To have no one say "Happy Rosh Hashanah" or "Happy Samhain" or "Happy Diwali." Again, I am not talking about offense here. Most non-Christians are used to being ignored. Trust me, they are happily surprised when someone who is not from their faith shows knowledge or interest. I am asking on their behalf that those of us immersed in Christian culture (and I include myself here, and you too Spinks) be aware of this difference and make an effort to learn something about other religious traditions, out of compassion.

Yom Kippur (the Jewish Day of Atonement) starts the evening of Oct 12th.
The Muslim holy month of Ramadan is going on right now.
Samhain is known to us as Halloween but was originally and still is the new year in some pagan (Celtic) traditions.
Diwali, the Hindu festival of lights starts Nov 1st

I think that one of the odd things about us humans is that it's only natural for us to be more aware of the 'persecution' of our own groups. (I only say put it that way because the persecution in the U.S. of various religions does not usually involve torture or killing.) For example, I wound up feeling envious of the woman at my work who wore a lovely wooden cross only because I knew I wouldn't be able to wear a symbol of my faith in the same way. On the other hand, since I was a Chistian, I am still very aware of when people try to put down or make jokes about that faith, and if I'm in a position to do so, I try to stop it.

This thread is making me cry, since I see so many people I love at odds with each other.

I don't feel that I'm at odds with anyone here. I am sad, however, that there isn't more trust here. I would have thought by now that we know each other well enough to know this wasn't meant as an attack. I have never known pah to attack Christians or any other religious group. I would hope that my own affection for Christianity is obvious. And Engyo and Seyorni have never been anything but respectful of faiths other than their own. Couldn't the Christians here entertain the possibility just for a moment that perhaps there might be some validity to this thread? That perhaps non-Christians, by virtue of their living as a minority in this society, might be able to offer a perspective that you may not have previously been aware of?

 

[Majikthise]

Why is it that an Atheist will not be President? It is because an atheist does not get to sit at the table in the political "backroom". Privilege, in this case, is the unspoken, completely unconstitutional , subtle denial of access.

:clap

I'd love to see some one try poo-poo this one away. It won't happen. It can't happen.

This is a great thread pah , but I wish it had inspired more contemplation and less contempt .

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I was trying to point out some examples of privilege. That's all. As for the point of the thread, I won't pretend to read pah's mind but I know that when I talk about privilege it's with the intent to raise awareness. That said, you're list of privileges does not fully reflect the non-Christian experience. My point was not that non-Christians are offended that Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them. My point was to contrast that with not having their own high holy days recognized. To have no one say "Happy Rosh Hashanah" or "Happy Samhain" or "Happy Diwali." Again, I am not talking about offense here. Most non-Christians are used to being ignored. Trust me, they are happily surprised when someone who is not from their faith shows knowledge or interest. I am asking on their behalf that those of us immersed in Christian culture (and I include myself here, and you too Spinks) be aware of this difference and make an effort to learn something about other religious traditions, out of compassion.

That seems reasonable.

Why is it that an Atheist will not be President? It is because an atheist does not get to sit at the table in the political "backroom". Privilege, in this case, is the unspoken, completely unconstitutional , subtle denial of access.

Here you have a point, though I suspect that a few of our past Presidents were 'closet atheists', and we have certainly had secular Presidents.

 

[Majikthise]

It would be so cool to see a president openly convert to atheism during his term. But it would not need to be atheism, any religion would do. And isn't it funny that christiany is the only one that wouldn't do the trick?

 

[Katzpur]

I think Pah's list is very illuminating. I fail to understand Scott's objection to it. As far as I can see the list is an observation, not a criticism.

I agree 100%.

You could make a similar list of advantages for any religion on it's home turf.

You're right again. But I've got to say that as a Christian living in America, I had never really stopped to consider a lot of these points. I really think that Christians living in predominantly Christian countires could benefit by realizing how "privileged" we really are. Of course, if we were to go to Iran, the tables would be turned 180 degrees.

 

[Snowbear]

Posts in which people of my religion are lumped into inaccurate generalities serve only to ridicule the people who worship in that religion. Not that it matters, but I find that offensive.

1. It is likely that state and federal holidays coincide with my religious practices, thereby having little to no impact on my job and/or education.
If my rotating work schedule falls on a haliday, it's almost impossible for me to get the day off. No, I don't get paid overtime for working it either.

2. I can talk openly about my religious practices without concern for how it will be received by others.
Talking openly about religion is forbidden in my workplace. Other places it is often mocked.

3. I can be sure to hear music on the radio and watch specials on television that celebrate the holidays of my religion.
This is true, though I don't watch much TV.

4. When told about the history of civilization, I am can be sure that I am shown people of my religion made it what it is.
No, this was not the case while I was in school

5. I can worry about religious privilege without being perceived as “self-interested” or “self-seeking.”
No. If I address "religious privilege," it is pretty much always perceived as self interested/seeking, or just mocked.

6. I can have a “Jesus is Lord” bumper sticker or Icthus (Christian Fish) on my car and not worry about someone vandalizing my car because of it.
Again, not necessarily (see the example of the other poster)

7. I can share my holiday greetings without being fully conscious of how it may impact those who do not celebrate the same holidays.
No. Many people are offended by these greetings. And say so.
Also, I can be sure that people are knowledgeable about the holidays of my religion and will greet me with the appropriate holiday greeting (e.g., Merry Christmas, Happy Easter, etc.).
No. I am often greeted with "Happy Holidays" or other "Happy days"
I'm not offended, but they clearly show the person is NOT knowledgeable about my religion

8. I can probably assume that there is a universality of religious experience.
No. I have found that even most people who claim to be of the same religion I do have widely differing experiences and beliefs.

9. I can deny Christian Privilege by asserting that all religions are essentially the same.
I don't think all religions are essentially the same. There is wide variance even within some religions.

10. I probably do not need to learn the religious or spiritual customs of others, and I am likely not penalized for not knowing them.
No-one "needs" to learn the religious or spiritual customs of anyone. That's a choice.

 

[Snowbear]

Couldn't the Christians here entertain the possibility just for a moment that perhaps there might be some validity to this thread?

Couldn't the non-Christians on this forum entertain the possibility just for a moment that perhaps threads that attack their beliefs are offensive?
Questions asking about why or wondering about our beliefs are fine. Threads for the express purpose of pointing out how rotten we are as "Privileged" Christians are just mean.

 

[lilithu]

I love ya, but give me a break... this list is not about "privilege", it is just a not-so-subtle way to Christian bash.

Privilege is getting jobs.... wealth.... status in society..... this list talks about unsubstantianed social nonesense.

Well then we have different criteria for what consitutes privilege. Scott, as a Catholic in this country surely you have some experience with Protestant privilege. Any time you have to explain your beliefs or practices while a Protestant doesn't, that's Protestant privilege. I'm not saying this to shift the onus onto Protestants; that's not what this is about. I'm talking about having some empathy for members of the non-dominant faiths. I'm sure you've experienced what it feels like to be "non-Protestant" at times, so imagine what it feels like to be non-Christian in this country. You once said in another thread that you don't have much of an opportunity to interact with people of faiths other than your own, and I believe you. I also believe your sincere openness towards others; I have seen it. But imagine what it's like for someone who doesn't have the privilege to not interact with people outside their faith, because they are a minority surrounded by the majority. They have no choice about it. That is all that I mean by privilege, having the choice. Nothing evil, nothing malicious, nothing even conscious.

Give me a wealth, power, and status and they can keep Santa Claus.... deal?

Not much of a sacrifice on your part Scott, as we both know Santa is secular.

Couldn't the non-Christians on this forum entertain the possibility just for a moment that perhaps threads that attack their beliefs are offensive?
Questions asking about why or wondering about our beliefs are fine. Threads for the express purpose of pointing out how rotten we are as "Privileged" Christians are just mean.

How is this an attack on your beliefs?? I see no attack whatsoever on your belief in God, in the trinity, in Christ, in heaven and hell, in sin, in the church, etc, etc, etc. It is not an attack on anything specific to Christianity. As a couple of us have pointed out already, this has to do with the privileges of the dominant religion in this culture. If Hinduism were the dominant religion in this culture, the post would be about Hinduism. And nobody has called you rotten.

Look, you and I don't know each other that well so I can understand why you don't trust me. But Victor and especially Scott do know me and my views on Christianity. I love Christianity. I think it's a beautiful, spirit-growing religion. It's the one that focuses most on God's love for humanity. And when people attack it, I defend it. This was not an attack on Christianity.

 

[Snowbear]

...imagine what it feels like to be non-Christian in this country....

No imagination necessary. Until a year and a half ago, I was a non-Christian in this country. Funny thing was, I NEVER had to defend my beliefs. My beliefs were not mocked or ridiculed, though a few Christians told me I was going to hell (That's one of the reasons I don't do that... I know that's not for me to determine ).

As a Christian, I am definitely in the minority at my work. And in my community. Far more people are non-Christians than are Christians. The most vocal folks are not the Christians, but the ones who scream separation of church and state when anything they perceive as religious is seen anywhere near a government building. The US contitution says something about freedom from government restriction to believe or practice any religion I want to (or not). By telling me I cannot express my religion at all, listen to religious music where anyone else might hear it, display religious literature (my bible must be in my locker, not out on my desk) these people are effectively restricting my religious rights. So... who's the privileged one again?

It is not an attack on anything specific to Christianity.

No, it's an attack on Christianity, which is a summation of my spiritual beliefs. But hey, it obviously does not matter what I think, but as I said with such poor grammar in a previous response: Posts in which people of my religion are lumped into inaccurate generalities serve only to ridicule the people who worship in that religion. Not that it matters, but I find that offensive.

Once again I am being told how I should or should not "feel" about it... When I said I see it as an attack, that is how I see it. You, as a non-Christian who are not offended by this and one who actually agrees with it, tell me I'm wrong because I see it as putting down/attacking my beliefs? Sheesh

 

[lilithu]

Once again I am being told how I should or should not "feel" about it... When I said I see it as an attack, that is how I see it. You, as a non-Christian who are not offended by this and one who actually agrees with it, tell me I'm wrong because I see it as putting down/attacking my beliefs? Sheesh

I'm not telling you how you should feel about it. I am telling you, as someone deeply sympathetic to Christianity, my assessment of the intent of the OP. If you mean to suggest that just because you feel that it was an attack that means that it was an attack, I'm sorry but that logic doesn't fly. Feelings have validity as feelings but they don't determine what the truth is. You as a Christian should understand that.

And with that I give up since it is clear that you are not open to anything I have to say.

 

[Bennettresearch]

Bennettresearch, I don't see how the other thread disproves what I'm saying. It supports my assertion about not working on the sabbath. Other than that, the request you mention is a little silly given that RF stays open 24/7 and is therefore equally accessible to everyone; nor is it attempting to "tempt" any specific group.

Hi Lil,

You missed the point entirely. I gave this example as to the fact that given the chance, any other group would have us observe their particular whatevers and put aside our own whatevers. And so, right now it sounds like sour grapes in this forum just because the Christians were here first. If this country wasn't founded on it, how did Chrisitans gain all of this special priviledge and power? Magical demon spells? Don't you think that if another group were in power they wouldn't put aside Chrisitanity? As to whether Christians are sensitive to others, we are very much so and I would say even more so than anyone else right now. I also have yet to hear anyone say to me; "Hey your a Christian, I'll give you a high paying job and let you boss people around!"

Craig

 

[Scott1]

Well then we have different criteria for what consitutes privilege. Scott, as a Catholic in this country surely you have some experience with Protestant privilege.

Almost on a daily basis... but I don't find it productive to attack them as a group.... I deal with people as individuals.

But imagine what it's like for someone who doesn't have the privilege to not interact with people outside their faith, because they are a minority surrounded by the majority. They have no choice about it. That is all that I mean by privilege, having the choice. Nothing evil, nothing malicious, nothing even conscious.

I get ya... and still love ya .... but you keep missing the point about why I believe this thread turned from an annoyance to downright offensive.

You've known me for a while, and you've stated I display an "openness" towards others.... that being said, you should understand why this thread bothers me... not necessarily the opening thread, but some of the replies... and hate me for being right, but I knew that is where this was going.

ANY time .... I repeat ANY time , a human being is put in a position to have to defend THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN I will not stand for it.

This thread switched from a "commentary" on Christian "privilege" to an attack on all "white, American, wealthy male privileges".

You tell me why I should have to defend my race, my nation of birth, or my financial status because I happen to be a Christian. Please, explain why this is ok. (For the record, I am unemployed and drive a beat up Hyundai. )

Not much of a sacrifice on your part Scott, as we both know Santa is secular.

Darn... you caught me. Would you take the Easter Bunny? (<----- another subtle jab at our "so called" privilege)

Your pal,
Scott

 

[michel]

As far as Christianity being dominant in America, and as far as any religious group that is in the majority has some degree of "privilege", I agree...

...but apart from that, I really don't see the point of this thread. It would be one thing if direct anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu, anti-whatever prejudice was widespread...but it isn't. Let's see here....non-Christians are "unprivileged" because:

1) Christians say "Merry Christmas" to them
2) TV and stores are full of Christmas images
3) You get Christmas day off at work
4) You have to request to get your religious days off

I'm sorry, but if you're non-Christian and you are bothered by these things, you are the one with the problem, not Christians. Hell, lots of people who aren't even Christians celebrate Christmas. And who would object to having a day off? If it really bothers you, just work on Christmas day anyway--I doubt your employer would mind. And what's so horrible about requesting a day off for Yom Kippur? Two people in my history class told the professor in front of the rest of the class that they wouldn't be in class tomorrow because of Yom Kippur....our professor made special arrangements to make sure they got the material. It didn't seem to be a problem.

Obviously minority rights need to be protected. But if you're offended because people wish you Merry Christmas, even though you don't celebrate it, that's just too bad. You can't expect the culture at large to affirm your beliefs, your choices, the way you dress, etc. It's called self-reliance.

Once again, I find myself feeling Gobsmaked at the idea that belonging to the 'correct' religious group should give anyone priviledges.

The only time I have ever heard of a 'priviledged group' in England, it has been against FreeMasons; they do have a habit (from what I know) of helping each other out even if the circumstances are a little 'odd'. When I applied for the magistracy, I was asked if I was a Freemason, and if I was would I be prepared to stand down from a trial in which either the accused or plaintif was a freemason. I still haven't quite found out what the secret handshake is......that is how little I know of them.

It seems strange to me that any religious group should have priviledges - and more so if it involves Christians. I guess I don't understand, because I don't live in America. I get the feeling that if I did so, I would have to spend a lot of my spare time campaigning.......... even more than I do here, in England.

 

[lilithu]

You missed the point entirely. I gave this example as to the fact that given the chance, any other group would have us observe their particular whatevers and put aside our own whatevers. And so, right now it sounds like sour grapes in this forum just because the Christians were here first. If this country wasn't founded on it, how did Chrisitans gain all of this special priviledge and power? Magical demon spells? Don't you think that if another group were in power they wouldn't put aside Chrisitanity?

Craig, I agree. (Thanks for the clarification.) Which is why I say this thread is not an attack on Christianity per se. If some other religion were the dominant religion, it would be about that one instead.

Some in the majority group would always want to impose their beliefs and practices on others. But others in the majority group would be amenable to changing certain inequities, out of a sense of fairness, if only they were made aware of them. I am counting on the latter. If I didn't there would not be much sense in this conversation, would there?

As to whether Christians are sensitive to others, we are very much so and I would say even more so than anyone else right now. I also have yet to hear anyone say to me; "Hey your a Christian, I'll give you a high paying job and let you boss people around!"

So are you transfering your annoyance at affirmative action over to religion now? Last I hear there were no quotas for hiring Buddhists or Pagans.

(btw, as far as I know, you have not responded to my response to you in the "black holocaust" thread.)

ANY time .... I repeat ANY time , a human being is put in a position to have to defend THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN I will not stand for it.

This thread switched from a "commentary" on Christian "privilege" to an attack on all "white, American, wealthy male privileges".

You tell me why I should have to defend my race, my nation of birth, or my financial status because I happen to be a Christian.

Honestly Scott, I do not feel that anyone here has asked you to defend any of the traits you happen to be born with. I understand that in the past maybe some angry people have demanded that you defend yourself for these traits. I agree with you that that is absolutely wrong. But their mistake is not that there's no such thing as privilege. It's in assigning a moral value to it, to say that somehow you are morally culpable for things you were born into.

From the color of the text, I assume you are quoting from pah. While I personally would have left race and nationality out of this, because I can only deal with one emotionally explosive, let's-turn-friends-into-enemies, issue at a time, again I think he is simply making a statement that pivilege exists. This is absolutely obvious to those who do not hold privilege, and has become apparent to some who do. Remember the person that you're quoting is also a white American male. I share with you both the privilege of being American. And while I make very little income, I consider myself to have the privilege of wealth. Unlike a lot of people in this country, I can choose lines of work that don't pay much based on my ideals. The ability to choose is privilege. Again, there is nothing inherently morally wrong with privilege. My privileges give me the ability to make the world better than I could if I didn't have them. But I do believe that there is something morally wrong with squandering privilege. "To those whom much has been given, much is required."

Look, I am not trying to make you feel guilty for any of the privileges you happen to have. As I intimated to Mr.Guy in this thread, I have little use for "liberal white guilt." It doesn't accomplish anything and is one of the things that drives me crazy about liberals in general. (How's that for a gross overgeneralization?) But I am persisting at this thread, at the risk of damaging our relationship, because I strongly feel it's important to talk about these things. If we never talk about them, they will not go away. They will simply fester in the background leading to more misunderstandings in the future.

And I sincerely hope that I haven't damaged our relationship. I have the greatest respect for you Scott.

 

[Darkdale]

Here's hoping that the other 30 are more than childish ramblings.

http://images-partners.google.com/images?q=tbn:ErgGuryjZa8J:members.tripod.com/~toto_8/baby/b1.gif

No luck. I think that's a pretty offensive list. I'm surprised it was posted by a mod.

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, no one has said that non-Christians are "persecuted." That implies some intentional malice on the part of Christians and no one is saying that. All I'm requesting is that you have some empathy for what it's like to live as a member of a minority faith in this society. Obviously, I would want non-Christians to extend empathy for Christians as well. I would object to any jokes that were hostile against Christians (or any other group).

But since you're the one I'm talking to, I'm asking you, not them. I guarantee you that if you show an interest in their faith traditions (assuming they're not atheists), it will be much harder for them to make anti-Christian remarks. And if you ask me why it is that you have to be the one to start, I'd say well that's the Christian thing to do, isn't it?

Malice? I had asked you previously to read what I originally posted that caused Pah to say I am privileged. I don’t understand how my original post would cause Pah to say that. Granted, I realize that I took it too far with the word “persecuted” and apologize. That was an exaggeration.


And you are right, it is the Christian thing to do, but to be honest I wasn’t applying it to other faiths but to atheist who feel they are under-privileged. Thanks for clearing things up.

~Victor

 

[Pah]

...This thread switched from a "commentary" on Christian "privilege" to an attack on all "white, American, wealthy male privileges".

You tell me why I should have to defend my race, my nation of birth, or my financial status because I happen to be a Christian. Please, explain why this is ok. (For the record, I am unemployed and drive a beat up Hyundai. )
Darn... you caught me. Would you take the Easter Bunny? (<----- another subtle jab at our "so called" privilege)

Your pal,
Scott

An absolute red herring, Scott. If you feel that you must defend anything, it is only Christian privilege that has been exemplified. There has been no discussion except personal ancedote and nothing to Christianity as a group. We are talking about one "horse in the stable", one "tree in the forest", one "mountain peak in the range". Perhaps you'll, using this understanding, be able to focus on the topic as it was set out and as it has contiunued.