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A Challenge To All Creationists

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Okay, quickie question: what is in it for those "damned evolutionists" to construct such an elaborate, expensive lie?

In the future please quote me accurately. I did not say damned evolutionists.

The main reason is they, like you have been educated in a system that presents evolution as a proven fact. They will not allow any opposing ideas. That is not education. That is indoctrination. What is expensive about teaching evolution? It is no more exdpensive than teaching English.

What is in for the thousands of universities around the world (where they teach actual science) to go along with this big lie?

Since that is what they have been taught all their lives, they believe it. Evolution is presented as science and we accept that what science says is true.

And the corollary question: what is in it for the religious institutions (and by the way, not even all of them) to deny it?

Why are you bringing religion into this discussion? This abut science, not religion.

And I will give you what I think are the answers, by the way: to the first (the evolutionists and universities) they get a convenient way to explain WHAT THEY ACTUALLY FIND AND OBSERVE.

They do not. You can't give eve one lof la mutation being the mechanism mfor a change of species. It has NEVER been observed. It has



And the religions? They get to keep their fantasy speculation for which there actually isn’t any evidence whatsoever. As the courts (where EVIDENCE is tested) repeatedly demonstrate.

Are you telling us that at least one religious viewpoint is incorrect? Any others?[/QUOTE]
Okay, quickie question: what is in it for those "damned evolutionists" to construct such an elaborate, expensive lie? What is in for the thousands of universities around the world (where they teach actual science) to go along with this big lie?

And the corollary question: what is in it for the religious institutions (and by the way, not even all of them) to deny it?

And I will give you what I think are the answers, by the way: to the first (the evolutionists and universities) they get a convenient way to explain WHAT THEY ACTUALLY FIND AND OBSERVE. And the religions? They get to keep their fantasy speculation for which there actually isn’t any evidence whatsoever. As the courts (where EVIDENCE is tested) repeatedly demonstrate.

Are you telling us that at least one religious viewpoint is incorrect? Any others?
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Okay, quickie question: what is in it for those "damned evolutionists" to construct such an elaborate, expensive lie? What is in for the thousands of universities around the world (where they teach actual science) to go along with this big lie?

In the future please quote me accurately. I did not say damned evolutionists.

The main reason is they, like you have been educated in a system that presents evolution as a proven fact. They will not allow any opposing ideas. That is not education. That is indoctrination. What is expensive about teaching evolution? It is no more expensive than teaching English.

Since that is what they have been taught all their lives, they believe it. Evolution is presented as science and we accept that what science says is true.

And the corollary question: what is in it for the religious institutions (and by the way, not even all of them) to deny it

Why are you bringing religion into this discussion? This abut science, not religion.


And I will give you what I think are the answers, by the way: to the first (the evolutionists and universities) they get a convenient way to explain WHAT THEY ACTUALLY FIND AND OBSERVE.

That simply isn't true. They change a virus a bit, it remains a virus and they claim that is evidence of evolution, and sadly you believe it. Do you really not understand that evolution requires a change of species.
They have NEVER seen a mutation causing a change of species. They have never seen natural selection causing a change of species. Yet evolution use those to things to try and support evolution.

And the religions? They get to keep their fantasy speculation for which there actually isn’t any evidence whatsoever. As the courts (where EVIDENCE is tested) repeatedly demonstrate.

Our speculation is far more logical than your fantasy speculation. Courts do not test evidence. hey take the testimony of evolutionists. Most of them have been uneducated in the pubic school system just like you were.

Are you telling us that at least one religious viewpoint is incorrect? Any others?

I have not mentioned religion. Stick to the subject.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
So, physics is bad, too? Because that is what it says, with the same strength biologists argue about evolution.

You keep getting off track. I accept that stars make oxygen. What was the origin of oxygen? It was not the starts.

So, I find it odd that you guys get so emotional about evolution when even basic physics destroys the plausibility of your biblical accounts. Which should not be surprising considering the expected knowledge of the authors of the bible.<<

Forget the Bible. The subject is science. I haven't used the Bible to support what I say. If you want to include the Bible, start with falsifying "after their kind."

So, what's next in the list of bad science? Shall we proceed with geology, or do you prefer neuroscience?

Why do you keep trying to embellish what I say? have not said any science is bad. have i given a list of bad science? Your problem is that you think evolution is based on science---IT AIN'T.

CAn you give me one example of a mutation causing a change of species?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
You keep getting off track. I accept that stars make oxygen. What was the origin of oxygen? It was not the starts.

"I accept that stars make oxygen." = stars make oxygen

"What was the origin of oxygen? It was not the starts.[sic]" = stars don't make oxygen
?????????????????????????????????????????

.
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
If they failed to make a serious attempt I would, which is the case here. No creationist has made any attempt to present a convincing case for creationism.* It's all been unsupported claims, trite remarks, off topic irrelevancies---usually in regard to evolution or its relation to abiogenesis---ongoing arguments over side topics, or posts wherein the poster just likes to hear himself talk. Thing is, I'm still waiting for some semblance of a convincing case.

Even your own case, which comes down to your opening and closing remarks, is no more than several unsupported claims and a request.

"A creation needs a Creator [Why?]​


Are you serious? Can matter just pop into being out of nothing?

100's of processes that work the same way every time needs an Intelligent Designer. [Why?]

A system that works the same needs an Intelligent Designer. [Why?]
Because they ALL work the same way. Do you really think order can come out of randomness?

"There is no mechanism know as yet that would allow the universe to begain in an arbitrary stage and then evolve to it present highly ordered state"---Don N. Page(an evolutionist).

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Support the claim, and why would this "fact" demand creationism and rule out God's use of evolution?]

Nothing can't be the origin of something. Even real science acknowledges that. To bad evolutionist don't. Teh creation of the universe is not about evolution. "After their kind." something proven 1000's of times every day, makes evolution false.

Make a case for evolution using proven science. [Irrelevant request, AND exactly what I said would be unacceptable

Since you keep preaching that evolution is a scientific fact, it is not irrelevant. You just can do it.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
In the future please quote me accurately. I did not say damned evolutionists.
You said dammed (sic) lie of evolutionists. Lies don’t get damned, liars do. Since you are accusing evolutionists of uttering damned lies, the damnation can only refer to them.
The main reason is they, like you have been educated in a system that presents evolution as a proven fact. They will not allow any opposing ideas. That is not education. That is indoctrination.
Quite incorrect. At the university level, it’s about research. They’re doing the hard work of discovering evidence, cataloging it, and interpreting it.
What is expensive about teaching evolution? It is no more expensive than teaching English.
Again, incorrect. English requires reading materials. The discoveries made about evolution have required thousands upon thousands of person-years of hard research in the field, the collection and storage of literally millions of fossils.
Since that is what they have been taught all their lives, they believe it. Evolution is presented as science and we accept that what science says is true.
Again incorrect. They “believe” it because they can follow the chain of scientific evidence. I’m guessing that you cannot.
Why are you bringing religion into this discussion? This abut science, not religion.
Creation is NOT science, and never was. It is an untestable claim about something that some think happened in some untestable way by some unknowable agency. It would be difficult to get much further away from science, actually. I brought religion into the argument because, quite simply, creation implies religion because it invokes zero science.
That simply isn't true. They change a virus a bit, it remains a virus and they claim that is evidence of evolution, and sadly you believe it. Do you really not understand that evolution requires a change of species.
One cell of a movie film is changed remarkably little from the ones immediately preceding and following it – yet watching the movie you will see rather a great deal of change. It does not actually require all that much imagination, frankly, to see how species can diverge from a single ancestor, to the point of not being able to interbreed again, which further speeds up the process of evolution.
They have NEVER seen a mutation causing a change of species. They have never seen natural selection causing a change of species. Yet evolution use those to things to try and support evolution.
Because there hasn’t been time. If you look at only the first frame of a movie and stop looking for the rest, you’ll never spot any changes either.
Our speculation is far more logical than your fantasy speculation. Courts do not test evidence. hey take the testimony of evolutionists. Most of them have been uneducated in the pubic school system just like you were.
Only if your vision is severely limited. And courts do indeed test evidence. In Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District, the defense was allowed to produce any evidence they cared to bring to the table – before a Christian judge – to have it weighed. Their primary witness was Michael Behe, author of Darwin’s Black Box.

And may I point out something Behe himself, champion of ID, said: “There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments of calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred.”
I have not mentioned religion. Stick to the subject.
In the Dover case, the judge stated (in his decision), “For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child.” So in arguing for ID, you are arguing for religion.
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
According to current physics, it is. Sorry.

Ciao

- viole

I am not questioning what physics says. I am questioning how oxygen originated. I also question how the stars can regulate just the right amount of oxygen to keep us all alive unless some Intelligent Designer did not create the system. Do you really think it can be regulate by randomness?
 

McBell

Unbound
My link was included in my post.

http://www.benotconformed.org/odds-of-abiogenesis.htm

It doesn't matter what the numbers are. Your theory of abiogenesis is more impossible than it would be to find a watch in the desert and assume it assembled itself by "chance."

Forgive me but I have to laugh at anyone who would think abiogenesis possible. It's quite a reach for a person who is willing to go that far to deny God's existence. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you got me confused with another member.
It is not "my" theory of abiogenesis.

It does matter, not only what the numbers are, but also how they were arrived at.
Your making the bold false claim it does not matter makes taking you seriously extremely difficult.

Again you must have me confused with another member.
I do not "deny" gods existence.
It would have to be shown that god exists before god could be denied.

Another point that makes it difficult to take you seriously.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I am not questioning what physics says. I am questioning how oxygen originated. I also question how the stars can regulate just the right amount of oxygen to keep us all alive unless some Intelligent Designer did not create the system. Do you really think it can be regulate by randomness?

I told you how oxygen originated. It originated in the core of stars. No stars, no oxygen. No oxygen, no water.

Ciao

- viole
 

McBell

Unbound
He really doesn't need math to explain what is impossible.
ah, so when people say that the odds of your particular god existing is far to great for it to exist, no math is required?

I understand that bold empty claims are fine for you.
They are not for me.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Also what some don't seem to understand is that life evolved within the context of the environment, not the other way around. IOW, if there was substantially less oxygen, then there probably would be the same adaptations as we now see with many if those indigenous people who live at the base of the Himalayas and Andes whereas they tend to have a larger lung capacity and a somewhat higher metabolism than most.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
You said dammed (sic) lie of evolutionists. Lies don’t get damned, liars do. Since you are accusing evolutionists of uttering damned lies, the damnation can only refer to them.

The go and preach that theology to the source you got it from---talk origins.

Quite incorrect. At the university level, it’s about research. They’re doing the hard work of discovering evidence, cataloging it, and interpreting it.

Irrelevant. They have yet to provide any evidence that sujpports evolutin.

[Again, incorrect. English requires reading materials. The discoveries made about evolution have required thousands upon thousands of person-years of hard research in the field, the collection and storage of literally millions of fossils.

Again irrelevant. Universities must have programs in all sciences or they will not be accredited. No accreditation, no students, no students , no money coming in.

Again incorrect. They “believe” it because they can follow the chain of scientific evidence. I’m guessing that you cannot.

I am not guessing, I know that you can't produce any chain of evidence that supports evolution.

Creation is NOT science, and never was. It is an untestable claim about something that some think happened in some untestable way by some unknowable agency. It would be difficult to get much further away from science, actually. I brought religion into the argument because, quite simply, creation implies religion because it invokes zero science.

I have not mentioned creation, stick to the subject, science.You bring it up because you think I am basing what I believe about the Bible. Guess again. If you want to talk about something that is untestable, how do you explain the origind of matter, energy and life. Do you have a way to test how the came into being?

One cell of a movie film is changed remarkably little from the ones immediately preceding and following it – yet watching the movie you will see rather a great deal of change. It does not actually require all that much imagination, frankly, to see how species can diverge from a single ancestor, to the point of not being able to interbreed again, which further speeds up the process of evolution.

It takes more than an imagination to support evolution. It takes real science. Let me give you a clue---time will not change the laws of genetics.

Because there hasn’t been time. If you look at only the first frame of a movie and stop looking for the rest, you’ll never spot any changes either.

Films do not operate on biology principles. Stick to science.

if your vision is severely limited. And courts do indeed test evidence. In Kitzmiller v Dover Area School District, the defense was allowed to produce any evidence they cared to bring to the table – before a Christian judge – to have it weighed. Their primary witness was Michael Behe, author of Darwin’s Black Box.

And may I point out something Behe himself, champion of ID, said: “There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments of calculations which provide details rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred.”QUOTE]

First, you don't know the judge was a Christian. Second one who spent his times studying law,probably does not have science background, and could not weiiiiiiiigh the evidence in an objectdable way.

In the Dover case, the judge stated (in his decision), “For the reasons that follow, we conclude that the religious nature of ID [intelligent design] would be readily apparent to an objective observer, adult or child.” So in arguing for ID, you are arguing for religion.[/QUOTE]

You are just blowing smoke because you have no evidence to support what you believe. This is not about religion or our judicial system. It is about science.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
ah, so when people say that the odds of your particular god existing is far to great for it to exist, no math is required?

I understand that bold empty claims are fine for you.
They are not for me.

Wonderful. Your whale "experts" say a medium size dog-like land animal is in the line of whale evolution. They make a very bold claim that the dog's nose became the blowhole of a whale, If that is fine with you, explain how it happened. Genetically of course.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Are you serious? Can matter just pop into being out of nothing?
Who's saying matter just popped into being? Science says it came out of the after effcts of the Big Bang, whose origin, while not known, isn't said to have just popped into being from nothing. And this is a far more rational explanation than positing a super-human being as the cause.

Because they ALL work the same way. Do you really think order can come out of randomness?
If you mean absolute randomness as in events without a cause, no I don't. Any perceived randomness has a causational origin, and it's this causational relationship between cause and effect that's behind the eventual order we now have.

"There is no mechanism know as yet that would allow the universe to begain in an arbitrary stage[sic] and then evolve to it present highly ordered state"---Don N. Page(an evolutionist).
I quite agree, but so what? The Universe didn't begin in an arbitrary state. It began in a very specific state we call the Big Bang. I can only imagine you picked this up from some creationist web site like The Institute for Creation Research which is famous for misquoting science and misleading its readers.


.


.
..
 
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omega2xx

Well-Known Member
I told you how oxygen originated. It originated in the core of stars. No stars, no oxygen. No oxygen, no water.

Ciao

- viole

OK, how did the stars originate? Did you forget to tell me how the right balance of oxygen is maintained?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
You are missing the point. Of course I have bones because my parents had the gene for bones. Now evolution says the first life form was a single cell. Therefore it had no bone, no need for bones and no gene for bones. How did it ever produce a kid with bones?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3237026/




No you don't see, You just said something silly hoping you are right---YOU AIN'T

Your are not reading your posts and replies. I provided a link regarding genetics and evolution. You said you do not read evolution links yet I linked a university program which teaches how genetics is link with evolution.



I use real science's standard, not the fairy tale ones invented by evolutionists., and you have no evidence a fruit fly was ever anything other than a fruit fly and will NEVER produce anything other than a fruit fly---Now prove me wrong.

No you don't as you claim things are unfalsiable thus that is not science. MY example of the fruit fly was specialization. You want a fly to turn into a dog or something but this is your lack of education regarding evolution



Things science has proved are proved because they cannot be falsified.

No. There has been no evidence to overturn theories. This does not make something unfalsiable. Again demonstrating you know nothing about science

"after their kind" is proven 1000's of times every day, and you can't falsify it.

Actually evolution does and my example of fruit flies does.


You don't have the ability to say my education is lacking.

Yes I do as I can easily spot your errors regarding science such as confusing proof with evidence and thinking ideas theories are unfalsiable.

It is your inability to refute what I says and provide the evidence for what you say, that is ALWAYS the default position of evolutionists.

Besides your errors in science you have stated nothing worth refuting. There is no point in refuting error based on a lack of education regarding science.

When you evos can't make your point you always turn to insults. It reminds me of the playground in the 3rd grade.

Stating you do not understand science is not an insult but a conclusion based on the errors you have made.


After their kind , which has been scientifically proven, refutes any theology that says an A can evolve into a B.

Irrelevant as this fits within evolutionary theory



The only claim I am making is that after their kind is not a theory.

Then it isn't science

It happens ever day 1000's of times.

Irrelevant as evolution accepts this as part of it's theory



You don't even understand that after their kind IS NOT SAMPLING. It is 100% observable.

You do not understand what sampling is. When you observe x amount of things from a possible Y amount that is a group sampling. This is inductive reasoning as you can not extend to a universal



I worked in statistical sampling for over 30 years. I understand it, you don't, or you would not make such an ignorant statement.

Stick to it as you do not understand science, inductive reasoning, falsifiable not what sampling observations are.
 

Animore

Active Member
You finally got something right---your points are unscientific so why should I want to learn more about your opinions? Present a point with some evidence, and I will reconsider.

You have not provided any evidence to support what you say. That makes then unscientific. FYI, rejecting what you say is not complaining. I will only complain if I have to accept one of your opinions I don't like, and that I don't have to do.

https://www.quora.com/What-scientific-evidence-exists-for-abiogenesis

The last link literally had a title of "Abiogenesis: Definition, Theory, and Evidence"
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I am not questioning what physics says. I am questioning how oxygen originated. I also question how the stars can regulate just the right amount of oxygen to keep us all alive unless some Intelligent Designer did not create the system. Do you really think it can be regulate by randomness?
Now, here you demonstrating with great clarity that you really do not have an understanding of science at all, and that while those of us talking to you in English about science, you are listening in Sanskrit and unable to even understand what we’re saying.

First, the question of “how oxygen originated.” Oxygen isn’t some magic thingy. It’s merely an atom with 8 protons in its nucleus (and some neutrons). Those 8 protons are there because the enormous energies at the cores of giant stores smashed smaller atoms together. Smash 2 hydrogen atoms together and you get helium. It’s still just protons and neutrons (and electrons according to the number of protons). Nobody “originates” helium. Same for oxygen.

Second, on “regulating just the right amount.” Earth did not begin with and oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere, but acquired one as anaerobic early aquatic organism (blue-green algae) began using energy from the Sun to split molecules of H2O and CO2 and recombine them into organic compounds and molecular oxygen (O2). This is photosynthesis. Some of the photosynthetically created oxygen combined with organic carbon to recreate CO2 molecules. The remaining oxygen accumulated in the atmosphere, touching off a massive ecological disaster with respect to early existing anaerobic organisms. As oxygen in the atmosphere increased, CO2 decreased.

High in the atmosphere, some oxygen (O2) molecules absorbed energy from the Sun's ultraviolet (UV) rays and split to form single oxygen atoms. These atoms combining with remaining oxygen (O2) to form ozone (O3) molecules, which are very effective at absorbing UV rays. The thin layer of ozone that surrounds Earth acts as a shield, protecting the planet from irradiation by UV light.

The amount of ozone required to shield Earth from biologically lethal UV radiation, wavelengths from 200 to 300 nanometers (nm), is believed to have been in existence 600 million years ago. At this time, the oxygen level was approximately 10% of its present atmospheric concentration. Prior to this period, life was restricted to the ocean. The presence of ozone enabled organisms to develop and live on the land. Ozone played a significant role in the evolution of life on Earth, and allows life as we presently know it to exist.

I have, in fact "dumbed this down" quite a bit. It is a lot more complex than that.

The earth itself, under the influence of the sun and our own flora and fauna regulates the oxygen in our atmosphere – and we can expect, as evolution and planetary change continue, that the amount will change over time. Will this cause another catastrophe for the aerobic life forms that now exist? Oh, probably. Buy likely not something you or I should worry about.
It takes real science. Let me give you a clue---time will not change the laws of genetics.
Okay, Science Guy – tell us exactly what those “laws” are. Remember to begin with the Monk Gregor Mendel and bring us up to how those “laws” are understood today. Or are you just going to spout another unattested, unsupportable, uncheckable assertion with the usual lack of recourse to any actual science?
 

McBell

Unbound
Wonderful. Your whale "experts" say a medium size dog-like land animal is in the line of whale evolution. They make a very bold claim that the dog's nose became the blowhole of a whale, If that is fine with you, explain how it happened. Genetically of course.
Wait...
I have my own whale experts?
How long has this been thing?
Jeez, I never knew....

Any explanation given will go over your head.

You do understand that you are nothing but a play toy for boredom relief, right?
 
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