A CONSERVATIVE solution to global warming (Part 1)

[BSM1]

Wrong again. I understand this. I can explain it. Are you ignorant or are you lying? There was no "rant" there were merely verifiable facts. I offered to support any that you doubted or did not understand. Meanwhile you have not been able to support your claim at all nor have you offered to do so.

You are not fooling anyone here.

In case you did not know I was setting up the background. I doubt if you can find one error in my post where yours was loaded with them.

Oy Vey...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oy Vey...

Not a very convincing argument.

Let's go over it one more time. You made wrote a rather foolish and ignorant post. You were challenged on it. You did not defend it. I offered to teach you about the Greenhouse effect and I began with some background. I offered to support any of the claims that I made that you did not understand or doubted. Instead of being clear you wrote another foolish and ignorant post.

What was factually wrong with anything in my post? Were there any claims that you need clarified or supported with links? Once again I am more than happy to do so. This once again is just the background. If you can't understand these facts there is no way that you will understand the Greenhouse effect.

 

[ecco]

I can tell by your rant that you have absolutely no idea what the Greenhouse Effect is. Maybe you should google it before you make another foolish statement concerning this phenomena.

Once again you try to alter the course of the discussion when you have no answers. It's not surprising but it really gets old.

 

[PureX]

We have let oligarchs run our economies. That is suicidal. Capitalism, like all complex machines, needs monitoring, and tweaking.

The reason capitalism is called capitalism is because it is an economic system that gives all the decision-making power to the capital investor. And they are making their decisions based on their own singular goal: to gain a maximum return on the capital they've invested. So it's a system that's rigged to support and reward the greed of the wealthy. If we were to put some other authority over the capital investor, it would no longer be a capitalist economic system. It would be an economic system defined by whomever has the ultimate decision-making authority.

Since the whole purpose of humans engaging in commerce is that it benefits them (all) to do so, it would make sense that all the humans involved would have the ultimate decision-making power in how the system operates. And that would define it as some version of a socialist economic system. It would no longer be "capitalism".

 

[sayak83]

Decisions based on greed (the maximization of profit) are never going to serve humanity. And until humanity is willing to face this fact, and put a stop to this kind of greed-based decision-making, we will continue to suffer, and we will continue to damage the only habitat capable of sustaining us. Capitalism is SUICIDAL. And it's just a matter of time.

Capitalism is maximization of utility, not profit.

 

[sayak83]

Except, in this case... It's merely a religion masquerading as science. I don't have to accept anything, they have to prove what they claim. There is no proof of global warming (anything beyond what has been experienced before), so don't look too far for that one.

And, your notions are rubbish... There is plenty to debate about climate change, evolution, etc... While these ideas are popular there are certainly issues to dispute. If any scientist doesn't admit this to you outright disregard them and find another source.

There is zero debate on evolutionary science or the reality of human induced global warming. Any scientist who disregards this is a crank or a paid hack, and they are so few as to be counted by hand.

 

[sayak83]

The reason capitalism is called capitalism is because it is an economic system that gives all the decision-making power to the capital investor. And they are making their decisions based on their own singular goal: to gain a maximum return on the capital they've invested. So it's a system that's rigged to support and reward the greed of the wealthy. If we were to put some other authority over the capital investor, it would no longer be a capitalist economic system. It would be an economic system defined by whomever has the ultimate decision-making authority.

Since the whole purpose of humans engaging in commerce is that it benefits them (all) to do so, it would make sense that all the humans involved would have the ultimate decision-making power in how the system operates. And that would define it as some version of a socialist economic system. It would no longer be "capitalism".

Labor is a form of capital, so are ideas and thoughts. You haven't read a single book on economics have you?

 

[sayak83]

I can tell by your rant that you have absolutely no idea what the Greenhouse Effect is. Maybe you should google it before you make another foolish statement concerning this phenomena.

Everything subduction said was correct. Its you who knows nothing apparently.

 

[sayak83]

Do you know how the 'greenhouse effect' works? Here's a primer. CO2 rises and collects in the troposphere.This would reflect the sunlight back onto the surface of the earth--thus the 'greenhouse effect'. The indication that this is happening is the heating up of the troposphere as it reflects the sunlight. This is not happening so no 'greenhouse effect'.

That's wrong,
Tropospheric Warming Over The Past Two Decades
When examined over the full period of record, long-term tropospheric warming far exceeds current estimates of natural internal climate variability (Fig. 1E). Our results support and strengthen previous findings of a large human-caused contribution to warming29,30,31,32. Studies involving patterns of tropospheric temperature change (rather than the global averages considered here) yield even stronger evidence of a human fingerprint in the thermal structure of the atmosphere27, 33,34,35. The recent focus on satellite temperature data in political discourse1, 2 provides an opportunity to highlight this fingerprint evidence, and underscores the importance of continued satellite-based monitoring of Earth’s climate.

 

[PureX]

Capitalism is maximization of utility, not profit.

No, it's not. People invest their "extra" money to gain more money, not to gain "utility".

 

[PureX]

Labor is a form of capital, so are ideas and thoughts. You haven't read a single book on economics have you?

Economists are notorious toadies, liars, and fools. Labor in a capitalist system is treated like the light bill: as an unfortunately necessary expense, to be minimized but used at will, and eliminated all together, if possible.

 

[sayak83]

No, it's not. People invest their "extra" money to gain more money, not to gain "utility".

Investing in education gains you utility. Investing in healthcare. Investing in your children etc.
You are confused. Money is a mere measuring unit for some kinds of utility, just like inches are a measuring unit for length. Capitalism is about utility maximization, parts of which may be measured in units of money.
Do not mistake the financial markets with capitalism.

 

[sayak83]

Economists are notorious toadies, liars, and fools. Labor in a capitalist system is treated like the light bill: as an unfortunately necessary expense, to be minimized but used at will, and eliminated all together, if possible.

If one gains same utility the by investing less labor (as in unit hours of time spent to create that utility amount), then its obviously better. Less investment, greater output.

 

[PureX]

Investing in education gains you utility. Investing in healthcare. Investing in your children etc.

HA! Now you're calling having to buy medicine, information, and groceries, to live, an "investment in utility"! That's hilarious!

 

[sayak83]

HA! Now you're calling having to buy medicine, information, and groceries, to live, an "investment in utility"!

Everything we do is to live. Utility is defined as something that aids us in living well.

 

[PureX]

If one gains same utility the by investing less labor (as in unit hours of time spent to create that utility amount), then its obviously better. Less investment, greater output.

No, it's not "better", it's just more profitable to the investor. "Better" is when everyone gets a decent job that pays them a livable wage and affords them the security and opportunity to maximize their potential. But this cuts into the profits returned to the capital investors, so they do not consider this a "good", in fact, they don't consider it at all. Because all they are considering is how to get back more money than they put in. And get back as much more as they possibly can. And the cost of labor, materials, skills, and physical plants cut into that singular goal. So they are all viewed as being antithetical to it. Labor is not seen as an asset, but as a cost. A cost to be minimized and eliminated if possible. Sadly, so is quality. If they could make us buy sh*t for $100 a bucket, they'd all be scrambling to sell it.

 

[sayak83]

No, it's not "better", it's just more profitable to the investor. "Better" is when everyone gets a decent job that pays them a livable wage and affords them the security and opportunity to maximize their potential. But this cuts into the profits returned to the capital investors, so they do not consider this a "good", in fact, they don't consider it at all. Because all they are considering is how to get back kore money than they put in. And get back as much more as they can.

Capital investors choices or actions have nothing to do with capitalism whatsoever.
By the way, an investor is entering into a trade contract with the people she is hiring. Its not her duty to look after the general well-fare of her contract parties. That is the duty of the government and society as a whole, and needs to be legislated at that level. Capitalism has a very useful but limited role in human society and cannot supplant other social structures within which it is supposed to operate.

 

[PureX]

Everything we do is to live. Utility is defined as something that aids us in living well.

There is surviving, and there is living well. To ignore the difference is to ignore one of the most fundamental and important aspects of human existence. But the investor class NEEDS us to ignore this difference so they won't be held accountable for their part in creating such a great divide. And the toady economists that work for them (as we all do, one way or another) help them to do this with these idiotic disingenuous notions like food, medicine and education being an "investment in utility" rather than a necessary cost of survival in a modern inter-dependent society.

 

[Mindmaster]

There is zero debate on evolutionary science or the reality of human induced global warming. Any scientist who disregards this is a crank or a paid hack, and they are so few as to be counted by hand.

If this were so, it'd be called indoctrination not science. Scientific dogma is even more repulsive than religious, especially when it pretends to be absolutely right and there are no debates. There is plenty to debate about concerning evolution even if we're speaking in an objective sense only. There are flaws in the science required to support the theory, and therefore there is much to discuss. Your argument is just a "No True Scotsman", it doesn't really have to be addressed beyond this.

Global warming isn't backed by data, so to me it's just a cult. Pardon me, if I step away from the hand grenade...

 

[sayak83]

There is surviving, and there is living well. To ignore the difference is to ignore one of the most fundamental and important aspects of human existence. But the investor class NEEDS us to ignore this difference so they won't be held accountable for their part in creating such a great divide. And the toady economists that work for them (as we all do, one way or another) help them to do this with these idiotic disingenuous notions like food, medicine and education being an "investment in utility" rather than a necessary cost of survival in a modern inter-dependent society.

Everything is an utility, including the necessary ones, like air, water, land, etc. Anything that a person requires or desires is an utility.