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A CONSERVATIVE solution to global warming (Part 1)

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
And the cost of labor, materials, skills, and physical plants cut into that singular goal. So they are all viewed as being antithetical to it. Labor is not seen as an asset, but as a cost. A cost to be minimized and eliminated if possible. Sadly, so is quality...

Hello. To that list I would add 'waste'. Pollution is externalized, passed on (as much as corporations can get away with, hence the need for strict regulation, IMO).

In short, capitalism is an inherently destructive, unsustainable, irrational system regardless of the short-term benefits for some people.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If this were so, it'd be called indoctrination not science. Scientific dogma is even more repulsive than religious, especially when it pretends to be absolutely right and there are no debates. There is plenty to debate about concerning evolution even if we're speaking in an objective sense only. There are flaws in the science required to support the theory, and therefore there is much to discuss. Your argument is just a "No True Scotsman", it doesn't really have to be addressed beyond this.

Global warming isn't backed by data, so to me it's just a cult. Pardon me, if I step away from the hand grenade...
I am not interested in talking with people regarding issues where they choose to remain ignorant and delusional. The desire to know the truth has to come from within and can't be thrust on by others.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
By the way, an investor is entering into a trade contract with the people she is hiring. Its not her duty to look after the general well-fare of her contract parties.
Darwinian economics at it's best, huh?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Everything is an utility, including the necessary ones, like air, water, land, etc. Anything that a person requires or desires is an utility.
Thus capitalism will also seek to maximize more clean air, more clean water, more livable land etc. etc. If an utility increases in quantity, its cost of acquisition falls so that more people can access more of it. That's the goal.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Darwinian economics at it's best, huh?
Pure common sense. When I go out to buy a shoe, I am looking for the best quality and best deal...not the general welfare of shoe makers. The latter part has to be done through legislation, proper use of taxes etc.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
By the way, super-rich people are not good for capitalism, as it skews the demand curve. I am a believer in a personal wealth cap of some sort.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
So...you buy bread after considering the wellfare of the bread-makers and weighing it as much as the quality/pricing of the bread itself?

I do. For example I only buy organically grown fruit (production not as harmful to the environment). Or fair-trade coffee (ensures better pay for the workers).
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I do. For example I only buy organically grown fruit (production not as harmful to the environment). Or fair-trade coffee (ensures better pay for the workers).
Actually you don't. What is buy is based on labeling that was made through legislation. Those labels are additional markers of utility to the consumers. (like brands). You yourself are not looking at the wellfare of the coffee makers, there is a socially legislated system that is doing this and informing you of this action through labeling.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Pure common sense. When I go out to buy a shoe, I am looking for the best quality and best deal...not the general welfare of shoe makers. The latter part has to be done through legislation, proper use of taxes etc.
No, it really doesn't. Not if everyone involved in shoe-making had a say in how the shoes are made and sold. The buyer has a say ONLY when he has the option not to buy. (This is not so for a great many of the items we now have to buy, to live, like energy, communication, transportation and health care.) And if the laborers need to have a voice in the shoe-making business's management (which they do not currently have, at all). And if the community has a say in how the business effects them and their environment (if their government representatives have the authority to enforce their will, and are have not been corrupted by the wealthy and power the business generates). When that wealth and power are well distributed among all those involved in the commercial enterprise, everyone's well-being will be represented. But when all the wealth and power rests in the hands of the capital investor, as it does in the capitalist system, they are able to ignore the laborers, cheat the customers, and bribe their public representatives (as is now the case all across America) to enable them to do whatever they want: which is always to amass ever more wealth and power. And use it to further corrupt government and further exploit everyone else for even greater profit.

It's a parasitic system with a built-in self-destruct order. And we are fools to engage in it.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
By the way, super-rich people are not good for capitalism, as it skews the demand curve. I am a believer in a personal wealth cap of some sort.
But that would not be "capitalism", then. It would be some sort of limited, socialized, capitalist hybrid.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
Actually you don't. What is buy is based on labeling that was made through legislation. Those labels are additional markers of utility to the consumers. (like brands). You yourself are not looking at the wellfare of the coffee makers, there is a socially legislated system that is doing this and informing you of this action through labeling.

Hello. No, I do not see it that way. I decide - based on my ecological conerns - to only eat, say, apples grown without pesticides. Therefore I only buy apples grown without pesticides. I may rely on legislation that requires labels to be honest, but that is a different issue. Is there utility (convienence) in the labelling? Yes. But my decision to only buy apples grown without pesticides is my choice and is done 100% for the benefit of others (field workers, other species). I choose to limit my choices and cost savings out of my concern for those things. That is the only factor in my decision.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If this were so, it'd be called indoctrination not science. Scientific dogma is even more repulsive than religious, especially when it pretends to be absolutely right and there are no debates. There is plenty to debate about concerning evolution even if we're speaking in an objective sense only. There are flaws in the science required to support the theory, and therefore there is much to discuss. Your argument is just a "No True Scotsman", it doesn't really have to be addressed beyond this.

Global warming isn't backed by data, so to me it's just a cult. Pardon me, if I step away from the hand grenade...
Another person that has no science education heard from. What "flaws" are there in the theory of evolution? And of course AGW is support by data. Where do deniers get these crazy ideas deom?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The reason capitalism is called capitalism is because it is an economic system that gives all the decision-making power to the capital investor. And they are making their decisions based on their own singular goal: to gain a maximum return on the capital they've invested. So it's a system that's rigged to support and reward the greed of the wealthy. If we were to put some other authority over the capital investor, it would no longer be a capitalist economic system. It would be an economic system defined by whomever has the ultimate decision-making authority.

Since the whole purpose of humans engaging in commerce is that it benefits them (all) to do so, it would make sense that all the humans involved would have the ultimate decision-making power in how the system operates. And that would define it as some version of a socialist economic system. It would no longer be "capitalism".

None of the world's existing economic systems are "pure". They are all tweaked and modified versions of the theories. There have been periods when the system was tweaked so as to "unrig" the advantages to the wealthy, and we can install those tweaks again.

IMO, a properly tweaked capitalist system has proven to be the best economic system yet devised. But if you have a better idea, I'm all ears. :)
 

tytlyf

Not Religious
You are avoiding your own speculation. What do you think the Greenhouse effect is?
Simple, just like a greenhouse in your backyard.

NASA Climate Kids :: What is the greenhouse effect?

greenhouse1.jpg
Earth_greenhouse_gases.jpg
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The problem with that source is that there is no real explanation. Of course the background that I tried to lay so that the concept could be understood was immediately rejected before we even got to how the Greenhouse Effect works. But then when one does not want to face reality it is best to deny it early rather than find oneself trapped.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
By the way, super-rich people are not good for capitalism, as it skews the demand curve. I am a believer in a personal wealth cap of some sort.

You'd have to exprain this demand curve thing.

What do you think super rich people are doing
with their money?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
If this were so, it'd be called indoctrination not science. Scientific dogma is even more repulsive than religious, especially when it pretends to be absolutely right and there are no debates. There is plenty to debate about concerning evolution even if we're speaking in an objective sense only. There are flaws in the science required to support the theory, and therefore there is much to discuss. Your argument is just a "No True Scotsman", it doesn't really have to be addressed beyond this.

Global warming isn't backed by data, so to me it's just a cult. Pardon me, if I step away from the hand grenade...

Has it ever occurred to you that you make a
fool of yourself speaking with such certainty
of things you know nothing about?

Or that you are the one who is all dogma, no
info?
 
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