A huge problem with the JW religion:

[kjw47]

If you don’t know about the apostolic tradition it’s no wonder your arguments against other expressions of Xy are so disingenuous. You don’t even know exactly what you’re arguing against, so you’re just parroting what your indoctrinators have drilled into you. If your group intentionally stands outside other, more traditional groups, then you’re standing outside the apostolic tradition. And that makes YOU the splitters, not the other groups.

Its 100% proven fact--The religion that came out of Rome did not have Jesus. Its satans, it is this-2Thess 2:3--and all 33,999 branches.

 

[kjw47]

I am sorry, but the Bible is not "God's description". Not even he Bible makes that error. I am sorry that you do not even understand your book of myths. You are trying to force a false interpretation of it. From a Christian perspective that is blasphemy as well.

Only to those that do not know God makes a statement like yours.

 

[kjw47]

You mean the book of the Bible that caused your sect to foolishly claim that the end of the world was here at least four times? You do realize that there are records of this, don't you?

Yes I do. They only had error filled trinity translations to go by back then. Many proven errors found in those pages-designed to mislead.
Example-- A capitol G God in the last line of John 1:1--Their own greek lexicon proves its an error.
Jesus is 100% clear-John 17:3--The one who sent him= THE ONLY TRUE GOd.The bible is clear--The Father sent Jesus-John 5:30) Thus--The Father is the only true God according to Jesus. Teaching anything else calls Jesus a liar.

 

[kjw47]

But you said that the passage refuted orthodoxy. That’s what you said. Clearly, it does not do that.

The bible does refute any who teach that Jesus death covers all sin. They know it, the trinity scholars know they are lying as well. They cannot stop pulling in billions every year to teach truth and expose themselves as false.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow are you blind. I just shared what Jesus taught. You are telling him he is in error. What a haughty heart you must live in. No wonder it reasons falsely( Jeremiah 17:9)

No, he is saying that your cherry picked interpretations are in error. There is a big difference.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes I do. They only had error filled trinity translations to go by back then. Many proven errors found in those pages-designed to mislead.
Example-- A capitol G God in the last line of John 1:1--Their own greek lexicon proves its an error.
Jesus is 100% clear-John 17:3--The one who sent him= THE ONLY TRUE GOd.The bible is clear--The Father sent Jesus-John 5:30) Thus--The Father is the only true God according to Jesus. Teaching anything else calls Jesus a liar.

Since you are hardly a linguist I won't take your word for it. Worse yet it is not "calling Jesus a liar". That is because you are breaking the Second Commandment by making a false idol of the Bible. The Bible is not God. The Bible does not, in fact can not claim to be perfect. If you understood the history of the Bible you would see this. It was not just dumped from a space ship whole and intact. Worse yet one calls God a liar by a literalistic interpretation of the Bible. If your God cannot lie then the Bible cannot be read literally.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Only to those that do not know God makes a statement like yours.

So you make statements like that. I learned something today!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You guys made this ridiculous prediction in 1914 too. Over 100 years ago. Not buying it.

Well it happened and is not for sale, it is a gift to choose.

Weird thing is, the greatest gift a man can have given by God is always wrapped in a package they reject. The package is never up to their expectations of what a gift from God should look like and be.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well it happened and is not for sale, it is a gift to choose.

Weird thing is, the greatest gift a man can have given by God is always wrapped in a package they reject. The package is never up to their expectations of what a gift from God should look like and be.

All the best, regards Tony

You appear to be unaware of the predictions of the end of the world the by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Guess what, after being wrong at least four times the world is still here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You appear to be unaware of the predictions of the end of the world the by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Guess what, after being wrong at least four times the world is still here.

I am aware of what JW have predicted, I have a JW friend and many hours of discussions have been had, I have been to services. More importantly I am aware of What Baha'u'llah has said will happen and it is unfolding as per those newer warnings given in the mid to late 1800's

Regard Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am aware of what JW have predicted, I have a JW friend and many hours of discussions. More important I am aware of What Baha'u'llah has said will happen and it is unfolding as per those newer warnings given in the mid to late 1800's

Regard Tony

I am pretty sure that you are merely experiencing confirmation bias in those so called predictions. Most religions tend to have them. A rational analysis of them demonstrates their flaws. In this article:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

There are some very reasonable standards for Bible prophecies. Christians do not like it because their prophecies fail when put through this filter. I am betting that if a similar filter was used on the prophecies that you are referring to they will fail as well:

Criteria for a true prophecy[edit]
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

Simply switch out the world "Bible" for the name of your founder of Baha'i.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am pretty sure that you are merely experiencing confirmation bias in those so called predictions. Most religions tend to have them. A rational analysis of them demonstrates their flaws. In this article:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

There are some very reasonable standards for Bible prophecies. Christians do not like it because their prophecies fail when put through this filter. I am betting that if a similar filter was used on the prophecies that you are referring to they will fail as well:

Criteria for a true prophecy[edit]
For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

Simply switch out the world "Bible" for the name of your founder of Baha'i.

Sure you are free to see it that way.

The downfall of kingdoms, monarchy and rulers was foretold, with great accuracy.

All the best, the world currently as we know it, Wil not last, gross materialism has tipped the balance. Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But in your error filled filled reasoning, In the OT being stoned to death was Gods law for the unrepentant. Is that what you would rather see occur to a family member of yours? One way one lives and can still repent, the other way one can do 0. Which would you choose for a family member. God set both ways up, humans have no choice.

LOL that's your rationalization? "Hey, it's better than stoning!"

What a pathetically low bar for a supposedly morally perfect God.

Of course we have a choice. The choice is to not accept your ridiculous false dichotomy and not ruin people's lives for thought crimes.

I see that it is a quandary that does need to be considered and at least the JW have tried to adress the quandary, well done to them in that effort, they have a strong Faith.

It reminds me of a story about Muhammad that Baha'u'llah has told, it quotes how a Law in the Torah was changed by the Jews.

If you are interested, here is that story;

".. Yea, in the writings and utterances of the Mirrors reflecting the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation mention hath been made of “Modification by the exalted beings” and “alteration by the disdainful.” Such passages, however, refer only to particular cases. Among them is the story of Ibn-i-Suriya. When the people of Khaybar asked the focal center of the Muhammadan Revelation concerning the penalty of adultery committed between a married man and a married woman, Muhammad answered and said: “The law of God is death by stoning.” Whereupon they protested saying: “No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch.” Muhammad answered and said: “Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?” They agreed upon Ibn-i-Suriya. Thereupon Muhammad summoned him and said: “I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman.” He made reply: “O Muhammad! death by stoning is the law.” Muhammad observed: “Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?” He answered and said: “When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death.” Meanwhile Gabriel inspired Muhammad’s illumined heart with these words: “They pervert the text of the Word of God.”[1] [1 Qur’án 4:45.]

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 84

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure you are free to see it that way.

The downfall of kingdoms, monarchy and rulers was foretold, with great accuracy.

All the best, the world currently as we know it, Wil not last, gross materialism has tipped the balance. Regards Tony

I have been shown those predictions and they did not do that. They were vague general predictions of the sort that come true quite often. They are failed prophecies. They were no better than the prophecies of Nostradamus or any modern huckster that understands the art of doing this. And with your confirmation bias you fell for it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have been shown those predictions and they did not do that. They were vague general predictions of the sort that come true quite often. They are failed prophecies. They were no better than the prophecies of Nostradamus or any modern huckster that understands the art of doing this. And with your confirmation bias you fell for it.

Vauge or not, they were said prior to the events, the events happened. They were not Vauge then, as they were used to ridicule Baha'u'llah. Some put their faith on the line saying if it happened, they would accept. Some happened within a year some took a few years, but they happened. At least Baha'u'llah was very lucky, above average at guessing.

Baha'u'llah as an exiled prisoner said that a Universal House of Justice would be elected of the world embracing Baha'i Faith, that Mount Carmel would become the world centre for the Baha'is and that the nation's of the world would come together to elect a world body, all at a time that the Ottaman empire thought they had exterminated any chance of a Baha'i Faith prosperity. So much more as well, all from an exile and a prisoner.

Guess that is all but lucky guesses as well.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Vauge or not, they were said prior to the events, the events happened. They were not Vauge then, as they were used to ridicule Baha'u'llah. Some put their faith on the line saying if it happened, they would accept. Some happened within a year some took a few years, but they happened. At least Baha'u'llah was very lucky, above average at guessing.

Baha'u'llah as an exiled prisoner said that a Universal House of Justice would be elected of the world embracing Baha'i Faith, that Mount Carmel would become the world centre for the Baha'is and that the nation's of the world would come together to elect a world body, all at a time that the Ottaman empire thought they had exterminated any chance of a Baha'i Faith prosperity. So much more as well, all from an exile and a prisoner.

Guess that is all but lucky guesses as well.

Regards Tony

You are not letting yourself see reason here. Vague general political prophecies come true. And yes, they were vague. No names, no countries, no years. There were claims that were interpreted as countries, names, and years, but that is the magic of vague prophecies.

In fact you just admitted that the timing was vague. Anyone with a general knowledge of international politics can and has made that sort of prophecy.

Also one has to be wary of self fulfilling prophecies. If Baha'i was to survive as a religion of course its believers would build something where their leader said that they would. This too is a failed prophecy. If the knowledge was hidden somehow until after the event then you could possibly claim that it was a fulfilled prophecy. But that one fails as well.

 

[Left Coast]

I see that it is a quandary that does need to be considered and at least the JW have tried to adress the quandary, well done to them in that effort, they have a strong Faith.

It reminds me of a story about Muhammad that Baha'u'llah has told, it quotes how a Law in the Torah was changed by the Jews.

If you are interested, here is that story;

".. Yea, in the writings and utterances of the Mirrors reflecting the sun of the Muhammadan Dispensation mention hath been made of “Modification by the exalted beings” and “alteration by the disdainful.” Such passages, however, refer only to particular cases. Among them is the story of Ibn-i-Suriya. When the people of Khaybar asked the focal center of the Muhammadan Revelation concerning the penalty of adultery committed between a married man and a married woman, Muhammad answered and said: “The law of God is death by stoning.” Whereupon they protested saying: “No such law hath been revealed in the Pentateuch.” Muhammad answered and said: “Whom do ye regard among your rabbis as being a recognized authority and having a sure knowledge of the truth?” They agreed upon Ibn-i-Suriya. Thereupon Muhammad summoned him and said: “I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman.” He made reply: “O Muhammad! death by stoning is the law.” Muhammad observed: “Why is it then that this law is annulled and hath ceased to operate among the Jews?” He answered and said: “When Nebuchadnezzar delivered Jerusalem to the flames, and put the Jews to death, only a few survived. The divines of that age, considering the extremely limited number of the Jews, and the multitude of the Amalekites, took counsel together, and came to the conclusion that were they to enforce the law of the Pentateuch, every survivor who hath been delivered from the hand of Nebuchadnezzar would have to be put to death according to the verdict of the Book. Owing to such considerations, they totally repealed the penalty of death.” Meanwhile Gabriel inspired Muhammad’s illumined heart with these words: “They pervert the text of the Word of God.”[1] [1 Qur’án 4:45.]

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 84

Regards Tony

So the point of the story is that the Jews decided to not enforce the Torah's capital punishment laws because they realized it would be suicidal, and your prophets Muhammad and Bahaullah disagreed with them.

What an awful story. I guess I can see why you admire JWs treating people horribly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In fact you just admitted that the timing was vague. Anyone with a general knowledge of international politics can and has made that sort of prophecy.

Has any one else had such a world embracing vision, given a vision of how that would unfold and been so lucky with it all?

History has shown some other lucky guesses must have been people such as Jesus Christ and Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Has any one else had such a world embracing vision, given a vision of how that would unfold and been so lucky with it all?

History has shown some other lucky guesses must have been people such as Jesus Christ and Muhammad.

Regards Tony

He really did not have one. You are merely reinterpreting after the fact. As to general visions I am sure there are many that have been accurate. Did he predict that the world would get better and better? If he did not he failed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So the point of the story is that the Jews decided to not enforce the Torah's capital punishment laws because they realized it would be suicidal, and your prophets Muhammad and Bahaullah disagreed with them.

What an awful story. I guess I can see why you admire JWs treating people horribly.

It shows that Trust is required, that God will make right all the wrong, only if we do not compromise the Law, if we stick to the Law, only then can the wrong be righted. A compromise only leeds people further from what God has created us for.

It is not for the faint hearted and weak in Faith. God gives guidance that can give strength and purpose against those that choose to do otherwise, only when it is put into practice.

If the law was followed back then, that wisdom would have unfolded, because the law was not followed that wisdom never came to light.

Thus again in this day we have a law and the same situation. Another chance of finding that wisdom only in submission to the Law God has given.

There is no compulsion in Faith.

Regards Tony