A letter to the Atheists

[TashaN]

He might still exist but till I see evidence suggesting this, I shall treat him as if he does not in the same way as I treat other entities with no supporting evidence.

Let's assume that you were living in the time were people believed that earth is flat. Just because people believe so and no one has come yet to prove otherwise, would you still believe that earth is flat?. Another thing, what if someone came to prove that earth isn't flat as you think but you couldn't accept his/her explinations and proofs for a reason or another. Does that mean earth will remain flat as long as you believe so? or just you are waiting for someone to convience you that it's not?

If you are waiting for someone to convience you, doesn't that considered to be so hard and unfair if it was only according to your own terms?

That's because no body can say for sure that he is aware of everything and can analyze everything at once but he might have been in a condition of a lack of grasping a reality because he can't see for moments the big picture.

What do you think?

 

[TashaN]

That doesn't answer the question. Why is a human free to think choose and act?

Because God wants for us to be so, unlike angels for instance.

Don't tell me now why God wants for us to be free?

Anyway, i can answer for that as well if you want me to do so.

 

[doppelganger]

Because God wants for us to be so, unlike angels for instance.

Don't tell me now why God wants for us to be free?

Anyway, i can answer for that as well if you want me to do so.

Why does God want us to be free?

 

[TashaN]

Why does God want us to be free?

Please read post # 88 & 89 in the link below to know the answer for your question(s).

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=582156#post582156

It's almost 3.30 am in here and i have a class at 8.30 am after few hours so i'll get some sleep . Good night for all of you, and i'll see you tomorrow "God willing".

 

[doppelganger]

Please read post # 88 & 89 in the link below to know the answer for your question(s).

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=582156#post582156

It's almost 3.30 am in here and i have a class at 8.30 am after few hours so i'll get some sleep . Good night for all of you, and i'll see you tomorrow "God willing".

When you get back, could you summarize that into an answer here? Have a good rest.

 

[Fluffy]

Let's assume that you were living in the time were people believed that earth is flat. Just because people believe so and no one has come yet to prove otherwise, would you still believe that earth is flat?

People had no reason to believe that the earth was flat. If I had reasonable justification to believe so then I would. If I had been brought up believing the earth to be flat then I would believe it but as soon as I thought about it I would discount my assumption.

I don't claim that all of my beliefs are based on reason. I am sure that many of the things I believe only appear logical and rational because I have not given them enough due thought. I think that if I believe something because it is a cultural norm then that is very understandable but very irrational.

Another thing, what if someone came to prove that earth isn't flat as you think but you couldn't accept his/her explinations and proofs for a reason or another.

The only reasons I would not accept an explanation for something is if I did not understand the explanation or felt that it did not actually demonstrate its conclusion. If somebody presented a logical argument to me then I don't think I could reject it based on emotionally or culturally instilled conviction.

Does that mean earth will remain flat as long as you believe so? or just you are waiting for someone to convience you that it's not?

My belief that the earth is flat does not make the earth flat just as my disbelief in God's existence doesn't make God wink out of existence. However, if after assessing all the available evidence, it appears that the earth is flat then it is rational to come to this conclusion. Similarly, if there is no evidence that the earth is flat yet I conclude this anyway then this would be irrational.

If you are waiting for someone to convience you, doesn't that considered to be so hard and unfair if it was only according to your own terms?

I'm unsure what terms you mean. I'm not really waiting to be convinced. I believe that God does not exist but I am well aware of the possibility that I may be wrong. If another person claims that he can demonstrate God's existence (ie make the possibility that I am wrong a reality) then I feel compelled to seek out this demonstration. You could say that attaining the truth is more important to me than what is true.

That's because no body can say for sure that he is aware of everything and can analyze everything at once but he might have been in a condition of a lack of grasping a reality because he can't see for moments the big picture.

I absolutely agree with you but I don't think that saying things like "I believe God does not exist" contradicts this. If I said "I know God does not exist" then I would be denying the possibility that I might be wrong and that would be irrational. However, I cannot form my beliefs according to the evidence that may exist. I can only form beliefs based on evidence that I am aware of. As I encounter more and more evidence, my beliefs will change according to that evidence.

So far I have no evidence for God and so I have no belief in him. The lack of evidence allows me to assert his non-existence. This would change in an instant the moment I encountered evidence that suggested otherwise.

 

[Tiberius]

Because it's based on plain facts and proofs.

This isn't proof. It's merely your argument as to why your proof works. And I have yet to see a "proof" of God that does rely on plain facts and proofs. All the "proofs" for God that I have seen require leaps of faith (and as such are not proofs), or are based un unsupported assumptions or even faulty logic.

Please explain your proof of God. You have not yet done so.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

what a person thinks doesn't mean squat.

Except to that person. A person's reality does not always conform to the shared view. Hence things like hallucinations and delusions. Is that person wrong in their assumption that we are a world on the back of a poodle? Probably. But that won't matter the least to that person.

The thing is, all of us share a unique view of reality, so the idea of a shared view of reality is only a general concept, and even then how do we know? Only through a language that is not always indicative of the true perspective and is full of ambiguity and personal symbolism that can only be assumed to be shared.

But when someone says, "Well, let's just say God did it" when faced with a question that science can't yet answer, that's not striving for the truth. It's just coming up with an answer that doesn't really tell us anything and not trying to go any further.

So if there is no God, attributing anything science can't explain to that non-existant deity is not only delusional, but it is the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty.

Not quite what I meant. A person can choose to believe in God, even while accepting It may not objectively exist. Why not? Many people grow up with that belief, and it's a hard one to shake. I've tried being atheistic, but it doesn't work for me. I still had a nagging belief in something godlike (my apologies to Godlike on RF - I'm fairly sure he exists). So I decided that that being I couldn't shake could simply be a metaphor for the spirit of life, a paragon for the Life Experience. It's not quite dishonest, because I was being honest with myself, and it's perfectly reasonable. Intellectual dishonesty is relative to the intellect being challenged.

 

[TashaN]

When you get back, could you summarize that into an answer here? Have a good rest.

Hi again.

I'm not sure if i can summarize everything but i'll try.

I believe that all the answers lie within the purpose of creation. God created us to be his vicegerents on earth as this verse clearly state.

[30] Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praise and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." (Quran 2:30).

Human beings have the tendency toward learning fast and to increase thier knowledge with time as well, all through the qualities that God gave to us which makes as unique in specific way that no other creature ever had. He also gave us the right to choose whether to be good or bad as well.

That's what i can tell for now, and you know where to find the details about that.

 

[TashaN]

Please explain your proof of God. You have not yet done so.

I didn't claim that i can prove the existance of God for you but rather, i was just interested to know why some people tend to reject his existance because the existance of God is not based on faith as many people claim to be so but based on logic before faith.

Nevertheless, If we started the proofs thing then you started encountering them with other arguments so this thread will never end till both of us are tired or bored. That's because i'm not perfect in presenting my ideas nor any human being is. We just have to strive and look for the truth because vague and complex unvaluable debate will ruin our prone to search for the truth, and we might care more for nailing and putting each other down. Don't you agree with me?

 

[TashaN]

You could say that attaining the truth is more important to me than what is true.

So far I have no evidence for God and so I have no belief in him. The lack of evidence allows me to assert his non-existence. This would change in an instant the moment I encountered evidence that suggested otherwise.

OK. I love that you are looking for the truth wherever it's

Sorry to say this but let's start with simple things, for instance, can you prove that your mind does exist?

Do we need to see or touch things in order to say that it does exist?

 

[rasor]

Maybe you didn't meet the right logic to convience you about it.

Or maybe there just isn't any logic to religion

 

[TashaN]

Or maybe there just isn't any logic to religion

There must be. A religion can't just pop up out of no where. Don't you agree with me?

There must be a reason for such a thing.

 

[rasor]

There must be. A religion can't just pop up out of no where. Don't you agree with me?

There must be a reason for such a thing.

I didn't say there wasn't a reason for religion,I said maybe there is no logic for religion.
As an example there is no logic in the belief in Santa Claus but many children have good reasons to believe in him .
Religion ,in my view ,has arisen because Man has looked for an answer to his existence and the universe in general.
He (man) came up with the idea of a God using the simplistic belief of " well someone must have made it (everything)" and not being prepared to say "we don't know"
The only way we are ever going to answer the question (if that is possible) is through the advancement of science as religion is incapable of offering any proof/evidence and if pushed for such retreats behind its "wall of faith" where proof and evidence are not required.

 

[rasor]

My definition of "faith in a God" is Believing in something of which you can't prove but really really wanting it to be true.

 

[TashaN]

Religion ,in my view ,has arisen because Man has looked for an answer to his existence and the universe in general.
He (man) came up with the idea of a God using the simplistic belief of " well someone must have made it (everything)" and not being prepared to say "we don't know"
The only way we are ever going to answer the question (if that is possible) is through the advancement of science as religion is incapable of offering any proof/evidence and if pushed for such retreats behind its "wall of faith" where proof and evidence are not required.

Let's go back to the flat earth. Just because you were at that time "for instance" and science couldn't offer a logical proof that it's not flat, so that doesn't mean by anyway that they shouldn't believe that earth is not flat if God said so, got what i mean.

Human beings can't prove everything because our knowledge is limited and it's unlogical to dismiss the posibility that a god might exist just because you couldn't prove it yourself. Isn't it?

My definition of "faith in a God" is Believing in something of which you can't prove but really really wanting it to be true.

There are many proofs but some just can't see it because they were born with it.

For example, if you were born and raised in a palace so it would feel so normal to you but if you invited a poor guy to your house so he will be so surprised and impressed.

It's somthing great to live there for the poor because he know well what does it mean to be rich and live there but you "the rich since you were a child" won't feel that way.

does that mean living in a palace and being rich is somthing normal? No.

Using the same logic, you have to look at this universe, just because it was like that since thousands of years so that doesn't mean it's somthing normal and so easy to exist by itself without a creator.

 

[rasor]

Let's go back to the flat earth. Just because you were at that time "for instance" and science couldn't offer a logical proof that it's not flat, so that doesn't mean by anyway that they shouldn't believe that earth is not flat if God said so, got what i mean.

Human beings can't prove everything because our knowledge is limited and it's unlogical to dismiss the posibility that a god might exist just because you couldn't prove it yourself. Isn't it?



There are many proofs but some just can't see it because they were born with it.

For example, if you were born and raised in a palace so it would feel so normal to you but if you invited a poor guy to your house so he will be so surprised and impressed.

It's somthing great to live there for the poor because he know well what does it mean to be rich and live there but you "the rich since you were a child" won't feel that way.

does that mean living in a palace and being rich is somthing normal? No.

Using the same logic, you have to look at this universe, just because it was like that since thousands of years so that doesn't mean it's somthing normal and so easy to exist by itself without a creator.

First point.(flat earth) No I dont k now what you mean.

Second point, Humans cant prove etc. Quite agree ,never said they could.What I did say was the only was of finding out was through science.Also just to make it clear,I'm not dismissing the possiblity of a god,just saying there is no proof of one so why should I bother worshipping one. ( check "we dont know")

Third point there are many proofs etc. No,proof is proof,although a fallacy may be seen to be proof in the eye of the believer. Wealth is relative so I cant see what that has to do with it.

Fourth point.Using the same logic etc. Doesn't prove it was created by a god either.

 

[TashaN]

( check "we dont know")

If a baby was found in the jungle alone then he lived all alone. Just because he didn't see his mom while delivering him to this life nor someone told him about it so that doesn't mean he just appeared there by himself neither he will think that he has no mother and no father and the jungle created him. Don't you agree with me?

Now tell me, using science, how he will be able to know that he has a mother and a father if he didn't see anyone around him to tell him so?

Assume that there is no human beings around.

 

[Fluffy]

OK. I love that you are looking for the truth wherever it's

Sorry to say this but let's start with simple things, for instance, can you prove that your mind does exist?

Do we need to see or touch things in order to say that it does exist?

So do I .

In order to say whether something exists, it must be observable. That is to say, we must be able to interact with it in some way.

So far we have been unable to observe any difference between what we think of as the mind and what we think of as the brain. Based on the evidence we have, the mind is likely to simply be a way for the brain to think about more complex thoughts. So I do believe that the mind exists but not as some sort of seperate entity from the body.

If something is unobservable then that means we cannot interact with it. If I say "I believe that X exists" I am therefore implying that it is observable. According to most theists, God is observable as far as I am aware.

 

[EiNsTeiN]

So do I .

In order to say whether something exists, it must be observable. That is to say, we must be able to interact with it in some way.

So far we have been unable to observe any difference between what we think of as the mind and what we think of as the brain. Based on the evidence we have, the mind is likely to simply be a way for the brain to think about more complex thoughts. So I do believe that the mind exists but not as some sort of seperate entity from the body.

If something is unobservable then that means we cannot interact with it. If I say "I believe that X exists" I am therefore implying that it is observable. According to most theists, God is observable as far as I am aware.

Hi...
Using your logic, we can also say that signs can be a mean of observation..
If you are walking alone in the desert, and found a car tyre, you will be certain that someone was there...
And we know God by his signs in the universe...
In Egypt we have a proverb which is said to someone who don't use his mind often, it says:'' God is known by mind''
And thats to some extent true, since the only evidence for God's existance is the existance of His creations...And you need no further evidence to prove Him..