A letter to the Atheists

[TashaN]

Can you give me a method that I can try out for myself? Is it designed to determine whether some sort of supernatural being exists or the deity of a specific religion?

Awesome.

Wonderful question. If you didn't ask this question i would bring it up to the discussion. Thanks for that.

Well, it depends in the way you wants to put it, most of athiest hate the idea of thinking that a God might exist because of thier experince with a specific religion they were raised and grow with(i.e. "jealous God", does this ring a bell with you?), so they paint all religions with the same concept which is not fair at all.

Now, if you want to talk about God in general so you have to dismiss any other dogma's concept of God or if you chose to be more specific so we can go in details into the qualities of a real God and his attributes.

So yeah, pick one of them.

 

[TashaN]

Do humans have a power of free and independent choice and action?

It depends.

 

[Fluffy]

Awesome.

Wonderful question. If you didn't ask this question i would bring it up to the discussion. Thanks for that.

No problem but...

Well, it depends in the way you wants to put it, most of athiest hate the idea of thinking that a God might exist because of thier experince with a specific religion they were raised and grow with(i.e. "jealous God", does this ring a bell with you?), so they paint all religions with the same concept which is not fair at all.

I'm not sure if that assessment is entirely accurate. I can certainly think of some atheists who qualify as anti-theists but I'm not sure if that is true of the majority. However, I think a certain level of ignorance of the variation in religion is common in atheists but no more so that any other demographic.

Now, if you want to talk about God in general so you have to dismiss any other dogma's concept of God or if you chose to be more specific so we can go in details into the qualities of a real God and his attributes.

So yeah, pick one of them.

Well if I understand correctly, you claim that you can demonstate the existence of a divine being (possibly a specific divine being). However, by asking me to pick a god, doesn't that imply that you feel you can demonstrate the existence of any god?

Regardless I shall choose the concept of God as understood by the majority of American Christians (protestants) since that is the concept with which I am most familiar.

 

[doppelganger]

It depends.

On what?

 

[TashaN]

Well if I understand correctly, you claim that you can demonstate the existence of a divine being (possibly a specific divine being). However, by asking me to pick a god, doesn't that imply that you feel you can demonstrate the existence of any god?

Regardless I shall choose the concept of God as understood by the majority of American Christians (protestants) since that is the concept with which I am most familiar.

It seems that i didn't put in the right way it supposed to be, sorry for that. It's not about picking gods because i believe in one God, God of all human beings dispite the way people see him or the way they worship him.

What i mean in simple words is, if you want to talk about God in general without referring to any dogma in details (not to nail the idea of the existance of God based on one single dogma) so that's fine with me, or you can choose the other way around which is, to go in details about how i see God personally according to the teaching of Islam.

Is it much clearer now?

 

[NoahideHiker]

I think to the atheist the whole watch analogy would be more like this...

Believer: Hey, check my watch.
Atheist: Nice.
Believer: Yeah i can stop time with it.
Atheist: No way! Prove it.
Believer: I can't but I believe it anyhow.
Atheist: Well make it stop time then.
Believer: I can't but you just have to take my word for it.
Atheist: I don't believe you.
believer: Then you're screwed.

 

[Fluffy]

It seems that i didn't put in the right way it supposed to be, sorry for that. It's not about picking gods because i believe in one God, God of all human beings dispite the way people see him or the way they worship him.

What i mean in simple words is, if you want to talk about God in general without referring to any dogma in details (not to nail the idea of the existance of God based on one single dogma) so that's fine with me, or you can choose the other way around which is, to go in details about how i see God personally according to the teaching of Islam.

Is it much clearer now?

Ah yes okay I'm with you now. Okay lets talk about God without nailing him to a specific dogma.

 

[TashaN]

On what?

It was a loaded question.

You said: Do humans have a power of free and independent choice and action?

I said it depends because we all know well that there is certain rules in this world and any who so ever wants to do anything bad for instance just because s/he feels it's right, it might be illegal to do so. Nevertheless, if you mean whether human beings have this freedom in general given by God or not so that's somthing else. So?

 

[doppelganger]

It was a loaded question.

You said: Do humans have a power of free and independent choice and action?

I said it depends because we all know well that there is certain rules in this world and any who so ever wants to do anything bad for instance just because s/he feels it's right, it might be illegal to do so. Nevertheless, if you mean whether human beings have this freedom in general given by God or not so that's somthing else. So?

Why are their "certain rules" constraining human choice and action? What is the nature of the constraints you perceive? From where do they come? Can you give an accounting for every single one of them?

 

[rasor]

Do humans have a power of free and independent choice and action?

Only if there isn't an all knowing God.Otherwise humans can only do what God forsee's them doing.Therefore free will is only an illusion.

 

[TashaN]

Ah yes okay I'm with you now. Okay lets talk about God without nailing him to a specific dogma.

Great.

We better start with you, if you don't believe in God, why is that? if it wasn't because you dislike some stuff in your background religion.

 

[TashaN]

Why are their "certain rules" constraining human choice and action? What is the nature of the constraints you perceive? From where do they come? Can you give an accounting for every single one of them?

For instance, just because you wants to steal, you can't do so, because it's against the law. Nevertheless, if you don't want to believe in God, so you have the right to do so because God gave you the choice whether to believe in him or to disbelief, but that doesn't mean by anyway that he doesn't exist.

 

[doppelganger]

For instance, just because you wants to steal, you can't do so, because it's against the law.

Sure I can. I simply have to accept the risk of getting caught and convicted, and of possibly paying a penalty of some sort.

Nevertheless, if you don't want to believe in God, so you have the right to do so because God gave you the choice whether to believe in him or to disbelief, but that doesn't mean by anyway that he doesn't exist.

Non sequitor. I didn't say anything "believing" or "not believing" in "God." I simply asked the questions I asked about the nature of constraints on human choice and action.

Is a society's "law" the only one?

 

[TashaN]

Sure I can. I simply have to accept the risk of getting caught and convicted, and of possibly paying a penalty of some sort.

That's somthing else. You are talking about freedom from a different point of veiw. If that what you mean by freedom so yeah, you can steal and pay a penalty for breaking the law.

Non sequitor. I didn't say anything "believing" or "not believing" in "God." I simply asked the questions I asked about the nature of constraints on human choice and action.

Is a society's "law" the only one?

It depends if that law was originally the law of God or not. There is certain constraints on human choice and action like the law of God and also the society's law and you have the right whether to accept it or to reject and pay the penalty.

 

[doppelganger]

That's somthing else. You are talking about freedom from a different point of veiw. If that what you mean by freedom so yeah, you can steal and pay a penalty for breaking the law.



It depends if that law was originally the law of God or not. There is certain constraints on human choice and action like the law of God and also the society's law and you have the right whether to accept it or to reject and pay the penalty.

So there are penalties, but no actual constraints on human choice and action? Did I get that right?

 

[TashaN]

So there are penalties, but no actual constraints on human choice and action? Did I get that right?

If i understood your first question about it in the right way, so yes of course.

 

[doppelganger]

If i understood your first question about it in the right way, so yes of course.

Why are there no constraints on human choice and action?

 

[TashaN]

Why are there no constraints on human choice and action?

Even though i feel we are going so far from the topic at hand ... Anyway ...

I repeat again, maybe you skipped that post of mine by mistake.

As i mentioned before, there is certain constraints on human choice and action like the law of God and also the society's law , but you have the right (and free personal will) whether to accept it or to reject and pay the penalty. If a human being is not free to think, choose then act so then there must be no penalties if s/he can't decide for him/herself in the first place.

 

[Fluffy]

Great.

We better start with you, if you don't believe in God, why is that? if it wasn't because you dislike some stuff in your background religion.

I do not know that God does not exist. He might exist. He might not.

This is what I consider to be an agnostic position. However, that is not all I believe about God.

I feel that as long as a statement lacks affirmative evidence, it becomes useless and meaningless with regards to its impact on my life, its basis in truth, its explanatory powers etc. Therefore, I believe in those things that have evidence and I disbelieve those things that do not. I am very open to new evidence that shifts one of my beliefs in either direction, including evidence concerning God. However, until I encounter such evidence I consider his existence to be implausible and so assert the likelihood of his non-existence (or at the most his complete non-interaction with mankind).

He might still exist but till I see evidence suggesting this, I shall treat him as if he does not in the same way as I treat other entities with no supporting evidence.

 

[doppelganger]

Even though i feel we are going so far from the topic at hand ... Anyway ...

I repeat again, maybe you skipped that post of mine by mistake.

As i mentioned before, there is certain constraints on human choice and action like the law of God and also the society's law , but you have the right (and free personal will) whether to accept it or to reject and pay the penalty.

I saw it. I specifically responded to it and clarified what you meant above. These don't constrain a person from choosing or acting except to the extent that they are considered as consequences. That's already settled.

If a human being is not free to think, choose then act so then there must be no penalties if s/he can't decide for him/herself in the first place.

That doesn't answer the question. Why is a human free to think choose and act?