A lonely nation: Has the notion of the ‘American way’ promoted isolation across history?

[Revoltingest]

It may be obvious, but is obviously very true, as well. If I were to have said this, I would have used the word “community” in stead of “home”, just to avoid appearing at all hyperbolic, but the sense is the same in both cases. The basic fact is, that capitalism, by its very nature, destroys community.

Hogwash.
Capitalism is all about voluntary economic association.
People like to associate with others. We don't need
a command economy to tell us to commune with each
other.
I just returned from our museum's engine show. It's
attended by fire breathing individualists & capitalists
who bristle at unions & government trying to put
their boots on necks. (Tis a common topic of discussion.)
Yet we all peacefully create a tight knit community of
generous people helping each other.
**** socialism.

If people begin to mentally prioritize the maximization of profit over the common welfare and the welfare of his friends and neighbors, then the seeds of destruction of communal solidarity have been sown. The fabric of society then begins to tear, and what Hobbes called “the war of all against all” is initiated. From there, the only recourse is for the so-called “social contract” to be tacitly initiated (the very antithesis of a “contract”), whereby the state is granted the sole right to the use of violence in managing behavior as that “war” continues in perpetuity.

You can hypothesize about the evil of profit maximization,
but the real world doesn't follow that simplistic model.
Many investors don't see things that way.

Are E.S.G. Investors Actually Helping the Environment? - Freakonomics

Are E.S.G. Investors Actually Helping the Environment? - Freakonomics

freakonomics.com

Socialist's fans talk of how bad capitalism is, & how great
socialism theoretically should be. But theory is only useful
if tested & confirmed in the real world. Empirically, the
results of capitalism offer far better potential for positive
outcome than shown by any & every attempt at socialism
throughout history.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Keen sense of the obvious, eh.

Right up there with ...

“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”​

― Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy​

 

[Zwing]

Hogwash.
Capitalism is all about voluntary economic association.
People like to associate with others. We don't need
a command economy to tell us to commune with each
other.
I just returned from our museum's engine show. It's
attended by fire breathing individualists & capitalists
who bristle at unions & government trying to put
their boots on necks. (Tis a common topic of discussion.)
Yet we all peacefully create a tight knit community of
generous people helping each other.
**** socialism.

I don’t know why you seem to think that I’m a socialist…

 

[Revoltingest]

Right up there with ...

“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”​

― Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy​

That strikes me as trying to sound
clever without actually being so.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t know why you seem to think that I’m a socialist…

I don't know that you are.
But those who oppose capitalism will
inexorably find themselves supporting
that alternative. So I address it.

 

[Zwing]

Capitalism is all about voluntary economic association.
People like to associate with others.

This is disingenuous, for what is voluntary quickly becomes involuntary as an economy develops.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is disingenuous, for what is voluntary quickly becomes involuntary as an economy develops.

You accuse me of being disingenuous?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hogwash.
Capitalism is all about voluntary economic association.

Where all the common folk pull themselves up by their own bootstraps except, of course, for those who cannot afford bootstraps.

How convenient is must be to embrace a view of capitalism and imperialism where poverty and oppression can only be the fault of the poor and oppressed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hogwash.
Capitalism is all about voluntary economic association.

There is, by the way, a particular irony in proclaiming such a fantasy on Juneteenth.

 

[Zwing]

…those who oppose capitalism will
inexorably find themselves supporting
that alternative.

I don’t oppose capitalism now that we have it and there’s no going back. Any feeling of community was destroyed in this country during the colonial period, when we were yet British. Now, we have capitalism and socialism, the initial problem and the worse solution, fighting over the pie, so I will choose capitalism. That doesn’t mean I cannot see it for what it is, though…usuriousness manifested. Even greater than my disapproval of capitalism is that of the territorial nation state, which seems to me to rest upon shaky pretexts. The notion that a nation of people can through its abstractive government, claim absolute sovereignty over a territory of land appears to lack justifiability. The thing that I hate most about the territorial state is that there is no free land left where people can go to be away from “the state”: literally every bit of habitable land on this planet is, absurdly, claimed as sovereign territory by one or another nation-state. However, like capitalism, I am stuck with the territorial state on this overpopulated globe, so I must make the best of it and work within that framework in my own self interest.

 

[Zwing]

You accuse me of being disingenuous?

No, I accuse you of reiterating a disingenuous memetic tagline without proper consideration. Our unthinking society is full of these catch-phrases that people accept without thinking about their implications. You are far from alone in that.

“Voluntary economic association”? What is voluntary about the association in a situation where if Harry doesn’t agree to become a factor of production for Bill, Harry starves at dinner time? Even so, I am not a socialist, advocating that the state rob Bill to pay Harry. Rather, (though I call myself a libertarian only because I know that given the state of technology, I need the state for protection from other nation states, such as that of the Chinese who would undoubtedly love to fashion me into some type of white slave as they colonized and raped my land…just look at the Uighurs) I am in reality an anarchist who would love the absence of an intermediary government, so that Harry could then kill Bill for Bill’s failure to view Harry as any more than a possible means of production. Alas, this is impossible because the Chinese and other strong nation states like them linger and loom, such that we are stuck with the terrible situation in which we are stuck with the state, and in which true community is hardly possible. In short, the modern world sucks, and there’s not much to be done about it.

 

[Heyo]

Keen sense of the obvious, eh.

Marx's analyses of people and economics have all been very keen observations - his synthesis not so much.

 

[Revoltingest]

Where all the common folk pull themselves up by their own bootstraps except, of course, for those who cannot afford bootstraps.

Whom do you have in mind who cannot
better themselves by choices of work &
investment?
Do you believe that eliminating the right
to form privately owned businesses is
a better approach?

How convenient is must be to embrace a view of capitalism and imperialism where poverty and oppression can only be the fault of the poor and oppressed.

Tricky you are.
You added "imperialism", "oppression", & "fault".
I think you already know I oppose those things,
which aren't fundamental to capitalism, yet
also occur hideously under alternatives.

Tell me....If capitalism is so very bad, what
do you prefer?

 

[Revoltingest]

There is, by the way, a particular irony in proclaiming such a fantasy on Juneteenth.

Perhaps you see capitalism as being naught
but the worst that has ever happened under
it.
Consider that alternatives are even worse,
eg, the Holodomor, The Great Leap Forward.
If you oppose something, gimme an alternative
with a cogent evidence based argument that
it's better.
Do you think that saying "Juneteenth" is that
argument?
<yawn> <eye roll> <yawn>

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t oppose capitalism now that we have it and there’s no going back.

What would you want to go back to...
Hunter gatherism?
Feudalism?

Any feeling of community was destroyed in this country during the colonial period, when we were yet British. Now, we have capitalism and socialism, the initial problem and the worse solution, fighting over the pie, so I will choose capitalism. That doesn’t mean I cannot see it for what it is, though…usuriousness manifested. Even greater than my disapproval of capitalism is that of the territorial nation state, which seems to me to rest upon shaky pretexts. The notion that a nation of people can through its abstractive government, claim absolute sovereignty over a territory of land appears to lack justifiability. The thing that I hate most about the territorial state is that there is no free land left where people can go to be away from “the state”: literally every bit of habitable land on this planet is, absurdly, claimed as sovereign territory by one or another nation-state. However, like capitalism, I am stuck with the territorial state on this overpopulated globe, so I must make the best of it and work within that framework in my own self interest.

Too many people see problems occur capitalism,
& think this means it's inherently flawed.
Well, duh!
This doesn't mean we should ditch it for systems
proven to be worse in practice. Address problems.
It'll still be capitalism....not perfect...just optimized
to be superior to proffered alternatives. We can
has social safety nets, environmental protection,
consumer protection, etc, while still having private
ownership of the means of production.

 

[Zwing]

What would you want to go back to...
Hunter gatherism?

Um…yeah? I don’t agree with Yuval Harari about too much (especially as pertains to his “Homo Deus” musings), but I do agree with him on this topic. I would gladly trade in the “X box” and the big screen monitor and drive-through food, daily showers and my unnaturally extended lifespan for a true community upon a less crowded planet, anytime. But as I say, it is not feasible…not possible. Such a change must be species-wide, or cannot happen at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I accuse you of reiterating a disingenuous memetic tagline...

Not a "tagline".
My views are more considered than you believe.
To be so dismissive means you won't inspire response.

 

[Zwing]

My views are more considered than you believe.
To be so dismissive means you won't inspire response.

That’s too bad, since an unwillingness to engage avails us nothing.

 

[Revoltingest]

Marx's analyses of people and economics have all been very keen observations - his synthesis not so much.

What his fans have posted about his work suggests naivete.

 

[Revoltingest]

That’s too bad, since an unwillingness to engage avails us nothing.

I converse with civil interesting posters.
Be one.