A question for creationists

[URAVIP2ME]

.Well, I agree with your sentiment here; the issue I have is, God does, in fact, at least threaten torture of said own infant. The mother's compassion in this example, isn't a practical mirror of God's. I do not see how his love is as great, when the example here is not what He emulates.
Quote:
Why are our plans discarded for his? Why is our suffering more important that our own relief, since it appears God's plan for us to suffer? Why is such a vile plan more important than the protection of his loved ones' well being above all other things? God cannot answer these questions in any moral way.
Indeed; so, if humans cannot achieve such perfection, how is it just that such a thing is expected of us, and that so much of value to us hinges on it?
There's no rush, so off to bed with you. The good thing about forum conversations is that they stay fresh for weeks

Jeremiah [ 32v35] mentions how the pagan peoples sacrificed their children in the fire to Molech.
God never commanded that, nor did such an abomination enter into his mind.

Where was it written that Adam was going to suffer ?
Sinless Adam would life forever on a paradisaic garden of Eden free from sickness and death.

It was Adam's disobedient choice to disobey God.
Adam was forewarned that eating from that one tree meant death.
Disobedience meant > death.

If Adam and Eve would have never had children we would not be here.
Time was needed for us to be born and think who we would like to have guide and govern us.

Also, the passing of time shows that mankind can not successfully direct his step. We need God to step in, and he will.

In other words, we can not obtain human perfection on our own.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
We can not stop sinning so we die.
We can not resurrect oneself or another. We need someone who can do that.
Jesus can and he will. Resurrect some to heaven to reign with Jesus for a 1000 years [Rev 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10], but the majority of mankind will be resurrected on earth during Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Jesus will help mankind gain the healthy sound physical and spiritual perfection that sinless Adam originally had at his creation.

 

[riley2112]

Yes, hundreds of different people writing their own story or research in their own individual books. Not as one religious book. Not as Bible canon or Holmes canon.

Sorry if I am interrupting anything , However with in this discussion are you contending that the Bible is the true word of God? You may have already stated that one way or the other if so , sorry to bother you .

 

[Heathen Hammer]

How does the ability to quote corresponding verses indicate the existence of a character in a given work?

We detect the presence of a variation of the Spiderman Fallacy

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Jeremiah [ 32v35] mentions how the pagan peoples sacrificed their children in the fire to Molech.
God never commanded that, nor did such an abomination enter into his mind.

.... oh, except in his first ever appearance to Abraham. Even though it was simply a sick joke, he made the demand, and Abraham took him seriously to the point of having the blade raised over his own child. So, this statement is incorrect.

Where was it written that Adam was going to suffer ?
Sinless Adam would life forever on a paradisaic garden of Eden free from sickness and death.

So is Adam in Heaven, or Hell?

It was Adam's disobedient choice to disobey God.
Adam was forewarned that eating from that one tree meant death.
Disobedience meant > death.

Let us not get into a discussion that Adam was ignorant of Good and Evil and thus did not in fact make an immoral or wrong decision, since he could not have been aware of what 'disobedience' meant. Nor that he didn't actually die in teh manner God described.... another thread, let's leave off it.
However this is an excellent litany of examples of God being a horrible parent; no human parent worth a damn would place his own child anywhere near this trap-laden 'paradisaical' Garden.

If Adam and Eve would have never had children we would not be here.
Time was needed for us to be born and think who we would like to have guide and govern us.

Also, the passing of time shows that mankind can not successfully direct his step. We need God to step in, and he will.

We need no such thing, especially since anything which occurs to us is his unbreakable plan and thus, his own fault.

In other words, we can not obtain human perfection on our own.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
We can not stop sinning so we die.
We can not resurrect oneself or another. We need someone who can do that.
Jesus can and he will. Resurrect some to heaven to reign with Jesus for a 1000 years [Rev 20v6; 14v4; 5vs9,10], but the majority of mankind will be resurrected on earth during Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Jesus will help mankind gain the healthy sound physical and spiritual perfection that sinless Adam originally had at his creation.

This is all gobbledeegook though, and has no rational meaning in the discussion. If perfection cannot ever be attained then making perfection attainment a requirement is simply spite from a jailor who knows all will fail.

God does NOT love as well as humans do, because I can guarantee you I would NEVER place any child of mine into a creation where ANY of this was possible. Because the child's welfare outweighs ANY plan I have.

Your God cannot say the same.

 

[Iti oj]

Where are the corresponding or parallel reference verses in the stories ?

The Scriptures teach what is non-Scriptural is religious myth.

Well in my two examples noah/flood and Jesus birth

 

[riley2112]

.... oh, except in his first ever appearance to Abraham. Even though it was simply a sick joke, he made the demand, and Abraham took him seriously to the point of having the blade raised over his own child. So, this statement is incorrect.

So is Adam in Heaven, or Hell?

Let us not get into a discussion that Adam was ignorant of Good and Evil and thus did not in fact make an immoral or wrong decision, since he could not have been aware of what 'disobedience' meant. Nor that he didn't actually die in teh manner God described.... another thread, let's leave off it.
However this is an excellent litany of examples of God being a horrible parent; no human parent worth a damn would place his own child anywhere near this trap-laden 'paradisaical' Garden.

We need no such thing, especially since anything which occurs to us is his unbreakable plan and thus, his own fault.
This is all gobbledeegook though, and has no rational meaning in the discussion. If perfection cannot ever be attained then making perfection attainment a requirement is simply spite from a jailor who knows all will fail.

God does NOT love as well as humans do, because I can guarantee you I would NEVER place any child of mine into a creation where ANY of this was possible. Because the child's welfare outweighs ANY plan I have.

Your God cannot say the same.

What if you know your child would not really be hurt? Say , like taking the child to a doctor to get a shot. To the child the pain of a shot , the thought of going to a doctor would be scary and painful, in other words the child would wonder why the loving parent would put them in HARMS way. All the time the parent knows that for their child to be safe for the long haul, this pain was necessary. I am starting to think that if the Bible (New and Old Testament) is taken as one Book as a whole that we have been lied to by the religions we follow.
If Jesus will cause or allow Mohandas Gandhi and Jewish Holocaust victims to suffer for all eternity, when the Christian Bible clearly says that Jesus is the only savior and human beings can't save themselves, wouldn't that make Jesus a monster? If an all-knowing God created human beings foreseeing in advance that many (or any) of them would suffer for all eternity, wouldn't that make God a monster? And if Christian mothers believe in "hell," how can they give life to babies who might end up in "hell" — wouldn't that make them monsters? This is the horror of hell-based Christianity: it turns God, Jesus and Christian mothers into monsters willing to play eternal roulette with the souls of innocent children. And what about all the mothers who would be forced to choose between Jesus and their own children? Could good mothers live happily in heaven with Jesus, knowing their children were suffering forever because Jesus refused to save them, when he was able to save the thief on the cross with a nod of his head? Surely only the bad mothers would remain in heaven. All the good mothers would curse Jesus and storm out of heaven to be with their children. They certainly wouldn't worship or praise the petty egomaniac who demanded belief without ever bothering to introduce himself to their children personally!

Think about it . If God is all loving then He would not do this, which in turn would mean that some of the men in charge of writing the Bible may have changed it to meet what the powers that be,(men in charge, kings ) needed or wanted at the time. Which may explain way the Bible seems to contradict itself from time to time. I know,:help: a somewhat wild claim, but a thought.
Do you think it is even possible or am I just off on a wild goose chase?

 

[camanintx]

Not just the existence of a character in Scripture, but the span of centuries of time that the 40 plus Bible writers wrote.
Most did not even live at the same time frame yet they harmonize with each other.

And those who wrote the later sections certainly had access to the earlier sections. Christa Wolf's 1983 novel Cassandra harmonizes with the Iliad but that doesn't prove that Zeus is real.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What if you know your child would not really be hurt?

Such a question does not apply, since God will harm his child even after death.

The rest does not really apply, then. What explains the bible contradicting itself, is that it's not divine in the slightest and thus, irrelevant to real life.

 

[riley2112]

Such a question does not apply, since God will harm his child even after death.

only if there is indeed a hell. If no hell exist then where is the harm? How did "hell" enter the Bible? Ironically, the only Jews who believed in "hell" at the time of Jesus were the Pharisees. We know this from the Jewish historian Josephus, a contemporary of Paul.

The rest does not really apply, then. What explains the bible contradicting itself, is that it's not divine in the slightest and thus, irrelevant to real life

.

Most lies are sprinkled with truths. May I ask what evidence makes you believe that the bible is no divine in the slightest or is that just your personal thoughts?

 

[riley2112]

By the way , I enjoyed our conversation the other night. I found it enlighten.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Such a question does not apply, since God will harm his child even after death.

Which God/god would harm his child even after death?

2nd Corinthians [4v4] refers to Satan as the god of this world of badness.

Since the dead know nothing, how can the unconscious dead be harmed ?

Jesus likened death to unconscious sleep. -John 11vs11-14.

That unconscious sleeping condition is taught in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Such as:
Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10
Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4

 

[Tiberius]

Like those Books, the Bible also has a theme that ties together.

Can you post the corresponding verses in chapter one of Star Wars or Star Trek?

Yep. The "A time to..." series of Star Trek books references events written in other books of the series (and they are written by different people) as well as mentioning events that happened in the TV series (episodes written by different people again).

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Yep. The "A time to..." series of Star Trek books references events written in other books of the series (and they are written by different people) as well as mentioning events that happened in the TV series (episodes written by different people again).

For starters, take Star Trek chapter one and post the corresponding verses for that chapter.

With Genesis 1v1
'in the beginning' corresponds to Hebrews 1v10
'God' corresponds to Exodus 6v3; 33v20; Deut 6v4; Mark 10v18; John 4v24; Romans 1v20; 1Cor 8v4; 1 Tim 1v11l 1 Tim 2v5; Hebrews 9v24; 1st John 4v16; Rev 4v8.
'created' corresponds to Psalm 148v5; Isaiah 45v18; Rev 4v11
'the heavens and the earth' corresponds to Job 38v4; Psalm 102v25; Isaiah 42v5; Rev 10v6.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Most lies are sprinkled with truths. May I ask what evidence makes you believe that the bible is no divine in the slightest or is that just your personal thoughts?

Well, one must presume that divine writing would not be contradictory or contain error, yes? Since the bible is presented as a single whole, and claims that it is, as a whole, divinely written/inspired etc.... but it contains errors and contradictions, so, thus, I must conclude that, as a whole, it's not divine.

If it was presented as 'in pieces' then each area could be examined for errors individually. Not my rules, though.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Which God/god would harm his child even after death?

2nd Corinthians [4v4] refers to Satan as the god of this world of badness.

Since the dead know nothing, how can the unconscious dead be harmed ?

Jesus likened death to unconscious sleep. -John 11vs11-14.

That unconscious sleeping condition is taught in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Such as:
Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10
Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4

Which God? The God of the Bible, obviously, since that's who we are discussing.

As to the dead knowing nothing, that's not the real result held nor promoted by those who actually follow the Christian Bible. While I agree there are a huge number of contradictory interpretations as to what's going on all presented by this single book, I am going with mainstream interpretations in this argument. We aren't talking Hebrews or Hebrew interpretations, here. Come, now

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Which God? The God of the Bible, obviously, since that's who we are discussing.
As to the dead knowing nothing, that's not the real result held nor promoted by those who actually follow the Christian Bible. While I agree there are a huge number of contradictory interpretations as to what's going on all presented by this single book, I am going with mainstream interpretations in this argument. We aren't talking Hebrews or Hebrew interpretations, here. Come, now

Who said anything about Hebrew interpretations?
The Hebrew OT Scriptures are translated into our English.
In English it says the dead know nothing at Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10
In English it says the dead sleep at Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4
In English it says the dead sleep according to Jesus at John 11vs11-14
Which contradiction verses do you have in mind?

By saying which 'God' in meaning that in Scripture there are many gods and many Lords but only one true God. -Psalm 83v18 KJV

Is the Christian Bible really being followed by mainsteam Christendom ?
Remember Luke wrote that wolf-like clergy, dressed in sheep's clothing, would fleece the flock of God. - Acts 20vs29,30.

Jesus also forewarned that genuine 'wheat' Christians would grow together over the centuries with fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the harvest time or the final judgment time of separation of Matthew [25vs31,32] ahead of us.

Paul also penned a warning about a future time coming.
People would have religious teachers that would, so to speak, tickle their ears.
-2nd Timothy 4v3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, one must presume that divine writing would not be contradictory or contain error, yes? Since the bible is presented as a single whole, and claims that it is, as a whole, divinely written/inspired etc.... but it contains errors and contradictions, so, thus, I must conclude that, as a whole, it's not divine.
If it was presented as 'in pieces' then each area could be examined for errors individually. Not my rules, though.

Let's start with just one contradiction or error that you have found?

Sometimes it is just context or setting, or a clergy teaching taught as Scripture when not found in Scripture.

This time of year there are many teachings about the birth of Christ that do not match Scripture being taught as Scripture.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Who said anything about Hebrew interpretations?
The Hebrew OT Scriptures are translated into our English.
In English it says the dead know nothing at Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10
In English it says the dead sleep at Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4
In English it says the dead sleep according to Jesus at John 11vs11-14
Which contradiction verses do you have in mind?

By saying which 'God' in meaning that in Scripture there are many gods and many Lords but only one true God. -Psalm 83v18 KJV

Is the Christian Bible really being followed by mainsteam Christendom ?
Remember Luke wrote that wolf-like clergy, dressed in sheep's clothing, would fleece the flock of God. - Acts 20vs29,30.

Jesus also forewarned that genuine 'wheat' Christians would grow together over the centuries with fake 'weed/tares' Christians until the harvest time or the final judgment time of separation of Matthew [25vs31,32] ahead of us.

Paul also penned a warning about a future time coming.
People would have religious teachers that would, so to speak, tickle their ears.
-2nd Timothy 4v3

No no, don't get all obtuse now.

I am not speaking of what language it's in; I am discussing how it is interpreted. And you KNOW t6here is a difference between Hebrew and Christian interpretations of the state of the dead. Don't play coy.

And please don't try the No True Scotsman fallacy either. Yes, mainstream Christendom certainly follows the Bible. Some of you want to accuse others of incorrectly following some doctrine or other or of being heretics in general but that is irrelevant to my point.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Let's start with just one contradiction or error that you have found?

Sometimes it is just context or setting, or a clergy teaching taught as Scripture when not found in Scripture.

This time of year there are many teachings about the birth of Christ that do not match Scripture being taught as Scripture.

First you will state in print that if I note a single error or contradiction you will concede the point. Im not going to go through the effort only to waste my time. Im not here for apologetics.

Sometimes its context or setting, and sometimes the text is outright wrong. In a number of places the bible is wrong.

Also, first, you must make your judgment on the statement: if a work is divine it will contain no contradictions or errors. Yes or no?

 

[worsewicked]

Did you ever hear of the theory that if you put infinite monkeys in an infinitely sized room for an infinite amount of time with an infinite amount of typewriters, by the nature of infinity, you would get the complete works of William Shakespeare in order?

The theory is taken to be true. The nature of infinity, and the idea, that has not yet been disproven, about there being an infinite amount of time with no start or end to it, means that creationism is a bit silly really. I mean, isn't that what infinite time and space does? It creates complicated things, and random events do happen.

It is common sense, and a bit silly to think otherwise.